No Nobels, We're Muslim

[Tshering22]

Something extremely dramatic would have to happen for this vision to be realized. Perhaps in a century or two.

good one.

 

[Hussein]

I guess I expected you to understand your own post. You wrote that giant post about who or what wins Nobel prize and I gave you two examples to prove you wrong.

it is convenient for you to say it is in my answer
but still you keep not explaining what you mean

i am giving many points and you say Japan and Israel just as argument.
Explanation of WHAT YOU mean necessary. he is you who say this so explain me what you have to say that is not matching my words

Isreal or Japan have really nothing to do with the exemples i was giving

Ptex was giving you one point:
the israelis worked in western labs
the japan : i don't need to explain why Japan got such a technology advance. it is a little bit something to do with USA

people are coming back to israel or get israelian nationality. it is good. most Iranians don't come back because they have a good living in US when in Iran if they work in labs they will have not easy situation and not all the material necessary for their work

japan is already high tech country with a very important help from USA
for exemple Iran never got any program with the West to help
USA never invested or made exchange programs of technology with Iran
But Japan and Israel have important exchanges
Israel is making for exemple many essential elements of high tech US

 

[Zabaniyah]

I was actually told I had made the mistake of over-educating myself!

(True statement.)

 

[Aktavist_KKWC]

Noble prize is one you wouldn't want after it's been given to warmongers such Kissenger and O'bama

 

[T-Faz]

Abdus Salam wrote a whole book on reviving sciences within the Islamic world:

Renaissance of sciences in Islamic ... - Abdus Salam, H. R. Dalafi - Google Books

He went to all Muslim countries asking them to set aside a certain percent of their GNP for education and research in the Muslim world.

Well, it didn't work out.

 

[muse]

Thank you friends and others, for your responses - Allow me to deal with some of the issues raised, lets first deal with the meaning of the Nobel, at least for the purposes of this thread :

The Nobel only means that achievement in the fields of the expansion of the human experience - is Nobel, political, sure, but SCIENCE is not open to the considerations that effect politics - Scientific discovery and research are beyond, who lies or dislikes it, it is beyond even good or bad, and right and wrong.

So what we are looking for is achievement, to be considered with the rest, to compete, to expand the experience of reality for ALL.

Now lets come to the second major objection our friends and others have raised -- that suggesting Muslims have not accomplished much this the heydays of Baghdad is Anti-Islam

Those who wish us to take their position seriously must produce ARGUMENTS to support their positions - See, friends, either there was achievement or there was not - and these two are obvious.

But those who argue that scientific accomplishment is against Islam, must explain, which Islam they are talking about? after all we are all in agreement that from the advent of Islam to the 12 or 13 century, Islam was the motivation and catalyst of scientific discovery and innovation - so they must explain what changed and why the period from the advent of Islam to the 13 century was Anti-Islamic -- and we will allow them ever space, every privilege, every accommodation and will eagerly examine their arguments, in particular their explanation of how and why the period from the advent of Islam to the 13 century, was Anti-Islam.

We encourage any and all to take this challenge and also encourage them to read "The Responsibility of Muslim Intellectuals" in our post number 22 on page one of this thread - because our defense will derive from that exposition - so please do take this opportunity to persuade --- No expressions of sentiment or emotion, please make arguments, please explain the criteria for your position - happy reading - we look forward to your arguments

 

[Developereo]

please explain the criteria for your position - happy reading - we look forward to your arguments

Muslim countries are behind in science because they are bad in governance. Across the world, the same trend can be observed, whether it's South America, Africa, India, China, etc, etc. India and China have started advancing in science only when their level of governance reached a certain point.

Even excessive religiosity is due to a failure of governance. When people have no material prospects, they fall back on religion and mullahs take over.

Fix civilian governance and the rest will follow.

 

[Vinod2070]

What if the governance system itself takes most of it's cues from religion?

 

[TruthSeeker]

So, we are on page 8 of the PDF on this topic. No credible refutations have been offered: the clerical establishment of Islam is antithetical to an environment that might foster Nobel prize-winning research in the sciences. QED. Islam is antithetical to modernity. Good luck to Muslims. You are gonna need it! No science, no progress. So say, IMHO, the TruthSeeker.

 

[Developereo]

What if the governance system itself takes most of it's cues from religion?

That is only true in extreme situations like the Taliban's Afghanistan or in Saudi Arabia. That excuse won't wash in the majority of Muslim countries where the government is not controlled by radical religionists. Even in Pakistan, barring a few extreme laws, most of the problems are due to civilian nongovernance. As noted above, the exact same problems of scientific apathy exist in comparable non-Muslim countries.

The religion card is abused by people pushing their own agenda. They see a mullah behind every problem. Whether it's an energy crisis, gang warfare, or rampant urban crime, their response to everything is "the mullah did it". This habit of crying wolf is very dangerous, because it makes it that much harder to tacke the real problems caused by extremist mullahs.

As I noted above, excessive religiosity thrives when people lose hope in the 'here and now'. Fix governance: give people jobs, good schools, and a stable environment, and people will have a stake in this life instead of giving up and betting it all on the afterlife.

 

[Interpreter]

Read article carefully first. It clearly mentions that it has nothing to do with Peace category. And it's not about qualityof award , it's all about death of innovation and scientific thinking in society.

If all about death of innovation and scientific thinking,why do you Muslim have to use this award of discrimination as a measure,which is not just about scientific and literature,as you know.Since Americans can award a warlike man the Peace Award,they can never award a Musilm which they don't like even tend to denigrate unless with a political purpose.

Literature award is the best proof.Without exception,those awarded Musilm writers whose works referred to politics, to me it also conjures up the images that last year a Chinese writer was awarded the Nobel Peace Award 2010 who agitated to overthrow national regime in his book.You are innocent if you consider that a Muslim or a Chinese can win the Literature Award by purely literal works.

What I mean is that the award established rules by which your Muslim thoughts are judged.You Muslim have been decided to be wrong and unimportant the instant this stuff begin to define what is right or wrong,scientific or unscientific,important or unimportant.However,in my opinion,nothing can say the things or thoughts that are not recognized by Nobel must be wrong or unimportant or unscientific.If the award thinks that Muslim is evil at beginning,everything about Muslim will be judged evil.

 

[jeypore]

As I noted above, excessive religiosity thrives when people lose hope in the 'here and now'. Fix governance: give people jobs, good schools, and a stable environment, and people will have a stake in this life instead of giving up and betting it all on the afterlife.

There is a simple word for this, which True Americans discoverd 200+ years ago, Which was "Freedom".. It is a simple word but it create whole lots of things when outer forces are not involved into your personal lives...

This simple word represents that you create your own livelihood and pratice your own religious believe, without any outside forces, but human beings are product of habit and follow that habit must. As Napoleon Hill says "In order to grow better next year you must change your Habit."

My little two cent!!!!!!!! Anyways back to the thread, The question asked by Mr. Muse............

But those who argue that scientific accomplishment is against Islam, must explain, which Islam they are talking about? after all we are all in agreement that from the advent of Islam to the 12 or 13 century, Islam was the motivation and catalyst of scientific discovery and innovation - so they must explain what changed and why the period from the advent of Islam to the 13 century was Anti-Islamic

 

[Developereo]

There is a simple word for this, which True Americans discoverd 200+ years ago, Which was "Freedom".. It is a simple word but it create whole lots of things when outer forces are not involved into your personal lives...

This simple word represents that you create your own livelihood and pratice your own religious believe, without any outside forces, but human beings are product of habit and follow that habit must. As Napoleon Hill says "In order to grow better next year you must change your Habit."

Such simplistic platitudes don't stand up to scrutiny. China, Israel and the US have very different societies, yet they all do quite well in the scientific field.

Nazi Germany was hardly the epitome of "freedom" yet it singlehandedly matched the entire world in technological strength. The modern aerospace era was launched by Nazi scientists.

The question asked by Mr. Muse............

Already addressed. The Muslim world sank in all areas of governance. Scientific inquiry was only one casualty, a secondary effect, in a long list.

The same effect is seen in other ancient societies which sank from their zenith: India, China, Persia, Egypt, the Fertile Crescent.

Shall we then say that the culprit was Hinduism or Buddhism or Zoroastrianism or whatever?

 

[PakShah]

The reason the western world is leading in science and technology is because of:


1) After the fall of the Byzantine Empire, educated Greeks went to Europe and taught in European universities. Example: Demetrios Chalkokondyles. Knowledge that was previously lost on the ancient Roman empire was somewhat mitigated if not completely recovered when Greeks taught in European universities.

This helped speed the Renaissance in Europe.


1) Discovering the Americas - by discovering the Americas, the Europeans found new resources and weak enemies (Native Americans), and thus were able to build their countries and later on their empires and defeat the weak enemies in Americas.

2) The Printing Press- By being able to publish books, literature, and ideas much more quicker than ever before, people were able to get more educated, helping in eradicating superstitions and some irrational ideas. People challenged the Catholic church, such as Martin Luther. This in effect as claimed by my university professor said that protestantanism was basically a new religion to counter Catholicism.

3) European Nations started competing with each other for influence and power. With resources, better education, and a more literate society, they could advance in the sciences and technologies.

They made technological innovations faster than the oriental countries could implement them.

4) Industrial Revolution - Instead of apprenticed artisans making goods, industrial revolution introduced "replaceable parts" in making goods, meaning goods were more easily produced and cheaper. Anyone with basic knowledge of Economics knows that when there is a large supply of goods, the price of goods are cheap.

This meant people could have a better standard of living with consumer goods being cheaper in price and better in quality.

5) Spreading their cultural language- When the imperialist dogs conquered the Americas and parts of Asia, they spread their culture and language, meaning that the people who got educated in "imperial dogs' universities" there may have been a chance that some if them could have developed an inferiority complex.

6) Dismembering their rivals in Asia: The Ottoman Caliphate, aiding in the destruction of the Qing Empire (Opium Wars), destruction of South Asian Kingdoms (Ex: Bengal and Mir Jafar)

7) Using UN as a tool to keep power to the westerners and keep everyone else weak. UN should be rename as UNable.
as UN is UNable to solve conflicts according to just and moral principles.

 

[Hussein]

So, we are on page 8 of the PDF on this topic. No credible refutations have been offered: the clerical establishment of Islam is antithetical to an environment that might foster Nobel prize-winning research in the sciences. QED. Islam is antithetical to modernity. Good luck to Muslims. You are gonna need it! No science, no progress. So say, IMHO, the TruthSeeker.

that's the problem of people who prefer use their anti islam feeling to understand

in the history with Islam our countries were great developing science much more than europe, before the "renaissance"
so i wonder why it is linked to islam?

many explanations were given but if you don't want to read of course you won't find it