No J-10B for PAF | A.C Khalid, calls for a focus on 5th generation platform instead.

[MastanKhan]

That is how a cadet is suppose to respond. As he is being groomed for junior officer tasks, he is suppose to carry out orders, just that! He is not the strategy maker. Not yet. Later, military officers will be trained in foreign countries like US, France, Germany, Australia, UK, China, Malaysia etc. Pakistan military officers have been among top graduates of these institutions for a very long time. They are trained very well.



Pakistan will not be isolated. US will continue to engage Pakistan as its ally. There is growing sense in US establishments that sanctions don't work well with Pakistan. Pakistan has ways to work around them and in doing so gets further pushed into Chinese influence. And recently into Russian influence may be. Saudi influence is also something US wants to curtail. Arms industry also sees Pakistan as a market. While they will not like to transfer technology they will happily sell. Yes even today, Eurofighter is on offer to Pakistan, with strings attached. They are all too aware that Pakistan will procure weapons at whatever cost. More blockage of military hardware pushes Pakistan to develop its own arms industry with Chinese, Russian and Turkish help and Saudi money. This pushes Pakistan in their influence further. That not only kills their market, it also produces competition when Pakistan starts to export these weapons. Not a good scenario for them. So they will continue to engage Pakistan in a way to meet it's minimum defence requirements and keep some sort of military balance in region.

US and West is also way too aware that sanctions have created way too much hatred in common people of Pakistan. In fact Hillary Clinton in her testimony to congressional committee said F 16 has become a symbol of US betrayal to Pakistanis. We should not have withheld those birds. It is printed on Pakistani memory as they have loved their F16 so much.

As of today, Eurofighter, F16, J10 and Grippen are on offer. If India drops Rafael, France will offer it without much hesitation. But they are not the full package that we are looking for. Just for one have faith. PAF commits mistakes, sure it does. But out of all three arms of military, it has been the best so far. It has outperformed others in wars. This happened while having to live under the shadow of much powerful Army.

The years you talk about like 2002-2005. Well Gen Mushshraf had resented PAF since Kargil. He has tried put blame on PAF for his planning failures. PAF was not even part of this plan to start with. Qaiser Tufail has testified to that.

Given what they have and the limited space they can wiggle in, PAF does a fine job.

HI,

The proof is in the pudding----the way that pak officers---let me say the general staff have acted---it does not show too much confidence in their abilities.

Grippen is not available for whatever reasons- anymore----and there s no reason to get it---F 16's we already have---Eurofighter has ways to go----.

You know what your attitude is---what your post says about Pakistan--it is that of a BOTTOM FEEDERS---you don't do your job in time---you have the opportunity of getting ahead of problems and yet you chose to fail---. And it is becoming a habbit of yours----you intentionally fail and then you cry about sanctions.

Musharraf and the nation should have reamed PAF----. PAF failed not because of sanctions but because of a someone who was supposedly too honest.

Even though there were American sanctions----French aircraft were available to paf---. The purchaser screwed up. Pakistan never needed the F16's---their mirages were good enough to take on anything that the Russians were flying across the border from afg---and know that they did---the first Russian aircraft were shot by the pak mirages---.

The initial purchase of F16's was a total blunder by the paf and Pakistan could never get out of the failure that paf forced it into.

 

[trident2010]

The initial purchase of F16's was a total blunder by the paf and Pakistan could never get out of the failure that paf forced it into.

Why you think F-16s are not good for PAF? These are the only planes IAF would be wary of.

 

[MastanKhan]

Why you think F-16s are not good for PAF? These are the only planes IAF would be wary of.

Hi,

So we are talking about the early 80's when paf got the F 16's---is that right--and you want to know why it was not good for paf---. OK

There were two upcoming aircraft at that time the F16 and the mirage 2K---the F 16 came out a little earlier---. As much drama the paf had created about needing an aircraft of tis caliber was not real---. The Pakistani mirages were good enough for what Russians were flying in afg.

So--F16 was consider the best on a scale of 1---10 the F 16 was a 10. The next aircraft was mirage2K---on the same scale of 1---10 on a given day---it was considered a 9---9 1/2.

At the time the paf was looking foran aircraft---so was india looking for a potent multirole fighter as well. If paf had goen for the mirage 2K-----it would have delivered a coupe de grace on the IAF---. IAF would not have gotten the F 16's at that time for the USA and Pakistan would have gotten a extremely superior aircraft in the form of mirage 2K and denying iaf parity in the air.

By letting the gate open---the paf allowed the IAF to get an aircraft similar to the capabilities of the F 16 in the form of mirage 2K. That was one of the ultimate stupid decision of the paf---. They would go ahead and make anther big blunder by cancelling the procurement of the mirage 2K's in the 90's.

Simply put---after paf bought the F 16's----it allowed the second best aircraft mirage 2K to be bought by IAF----a totally brainless---thoughtless move---no common sense at all.

 

[ArsalanKhan21]

Currently---only Chinese----if rafale is cancelled by india then French as well.

France will not sell Rafale neither we should buy it. Pakistan should buy F-16 Block 50 and preferably Block 60. The new 36 F-16 Block 50 plus 150 JF-17 Block II and III will provide good defense.

 

[Folkindia]

If the indian Rafale deal comes to fruition and is signed. Simply purchasing 36 j-10b fighter jets in the hope to counter the state-of-the-art Rafale's will not suffice. Sure the indians will keep aside a 'healthy' amount for China, but whichever way you slice it, within Pakistan, the growing consensus should be to acquire around 50/60 high spec J-10's in order to appease and bridge the offset. In any case, the purchase of Rafale's certainly leaves Pakistan in a bit of a 'quandary' given their technological leap and potency. If i were Pakistan, i wouldn't feel inclined to rely on JF-17's as the answer, given it's 'infancy', until at least block-3 when it 'matures' and incorporates more sophisticated-technology. They are however, more than a viable option, for replacing ageing fighters and representing the minimum standard within the Pakistani Air Force.

Furthermore, let us remind ourselves, the indians field a colossal Su-30 fleet, coupled with the potential Rafale-jets it will undoubtedly leave Pakistan in a precarious situation and this cannot be accentuated enough. In my humble opinion, it would be a travesty to pursue the option of more F-16's given that they maybe subject to sanctions, should 'shit hit the fan', (delve into history). Thus, leaving very little 'avenues'/options for Pakistan to explore, barring around 50/60 high-spec J-10's (when the engine saga ends). However, it is pertinent to mention, owing to the buffoonery/antics of previous Prime Ministers, this seems extremely unlikely, with the budgetary/financial constraints being experienced and the less than inspiring economy.

As an example:
Ideally: (In my humble opinion what the Air Force should look like in the coming years, not sure if its entirely possible).

150 JF-17 block 2/3
60/70 J-10B
Existing F-16 fleet upgraded as possible.
36 J-31.

 

[MilSpec]

SU and Mig can definitely happen IMO. Depends on how the negotiations are done. The Russians are needing money desperately due to sanctions so they'll sell anything to help their economy.

Yes with a book order or remaining 86 SU30 MKI, Book order for Joint production of 488 Brahmos A,Brahmos M in pipeline, 250 PMF FGFA/Pakfa, AMur competeing for 6 Submarines in P75I, Over 1000 T90M Tanks ToT and mfg, Nuclear Sub Lease, 3 Krivak IV Frigates, 39 Mig29K/KUB's, 48 HAL/IL IL 214 MRTA, and another 18 new 1000MW Nuclear reactors, I am Sure Russians will be selling SU's and Migs to Pakistan....

 

[Viper0011.]

Yes with a book order or remaining 86 SU30 MKI, Book order for Joint production of 488 Brahmos A,Brahmos M in pipeline, 250 PMF FGFA/Pakfa, AMur competeing for 6 Submarines in P75I, Over 1000 T90M Tanks ToT and mfg, Nuclear Sub Lease, 3 Krivak IV Frigates, 39 Mig29K/KUB's, 48 HAL/IL IL 214 MRTA, and another 18 new 1000MW Nuclear reactors, I am Sure Russians will be selling SU's and Migs to Pakistan....

Thanks for the wish list. When ALL these contracts are "actually" given to the Russians, let me know. Majority of this stuff may be coming towards the US / West also.
Second, I can clearly tell you have no background in strategic planning. So let's leave it at that. Time will tell a different story, just watch next 5-7 years.

 

[pursuit of happiness]

Thanks for the wish list. When ALL these contracts are "actually" given to the Russians, let me know. Majority of this stuff may be coming towards the US / West also.
Second, I can clearly tell you have no background in strategic planning. So let's leave it at that. Time will tell a different story, just watch next 5-7 years.

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ok you expert of strategic planning..
so what your point .. what you want to infer from your post .?

 

[Folkindia]

I'm guessing he wanted the 'likely list' and not the 'wish list'.

---
ok you expert of strategic planning..
so what your point .. what you want to infer from your post .?

 

[WishLivePak]

Pakistan should focus on getting used F16s and upgrade to at least block 3 for its JF-17 program. It'll learn as it makes the plane better. Then, in 5-10 years purchase whatever China is producing that has good benefits (purchase technology or something what India is trying to do with Rafael) and meanwhile launch our next gen program for a new aircraft (think block 3 will be ready around that time).

It is high time we start focusing on further developing jets on our own. It will not only improve economy, but education also among other things.

 

[pursuit of happiness]

I'm guessing he wanted the 'likely list' and not the 'wish list'.

ok
lets see what in store
Confimred list
86 SU30 MKI,
likely confirmed
Book order for Joint production of 488 Brahmos A,Brahmos M in pipeline, (brahmos is key to india if not russia so it on )
Nuclear Sub Lease, (india can only get nulcear sub from russia so they are only one option )
18 new 1000MW Nuclear reactors, ( deal finalised when putin was in india just recetly )
likely wish list ( its work wither is on or still not satarted but long way to seal it or its competition Russia may or may not get )
250 PMF FGFA/Pakfa, ( on and working )
6 Submarines in P75I, ( no idea )
Over 1000 T90M Tanks ToT and mfg,( i think its ordred but i dont know but kept in this category )
3 Krivak IV Frigates, ( no idea )
39 Mig29K/KUB's, ( no idea )
48 HAL/IL IL 214 MRTA, and another (no idea )

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india now in new age .. where it some how up to centain extent can say I WANT it or i dont want it to world..
Russia was and is indian best alley .. and reamin so and vice a versa.. but russian too have there problem of cost escalation and delivery issue..
it was unthinkable before 15 yr to say no to russia .. for deal..
thanks to economy , diplomacy now we have open gates..
we now say no to usa too .. and russia too like MMRCA as its based on indian requirment ..
if you see pie of indian market is so large that everyone cn get good share and india too get right product..
how on earth you think india say no f16 IN and best in class figter as there was no TOT..
we gave it to frech.. as they giving TOT .. if now they have issue with it fine .. EFT is ready and waiining..
its just national intrest which india can now stand and say load and clear

Pakistan should focus on getting used F16s and upgrade to at least block 3 for its JF-17 program. It'll learn as it makes the plane better. Then, in 5-10 years purchase whatever China is producing that has good benefits (purchase technology or something what India is trying to do with Rafael) and meanwhile launch our next gen program for a new aircraft (think block 3 will be ready around that time).

It is high time we start focusing on further developing jets on our own. It will not only improve economy, but education also among other things.

--
first thing for any nation is education system..
any developnet in any field need people who work i scicne lab..
USA is ahead becuase it attrack best of best people in there scince lab in basic reseach ..
russia is same as they excel basic science resecah..
china is going toward it..
so develope institution in pak for education and good visionary govt can make you wonders..
--
let me give exam.
despite china and india call to be emeeging market..
china as next super power they still cant work out engine tech.. they ahve money .. govt focus all but still not there.. as it need instituion - people -industry trio to build it .. china will make it today or tomorrow..
so hope india too

 

[Folkindia]

So what would your likely list look like in terms of numbers? just curious.. Im not sure more F-16's are a viable option, as they are sanction prone. Additionally, the US hasn't supplied Pakistan anything of note for quite some time.

Ideally: (whilst not being overly optimistic)

150 JF-17 Block 2/3
60/70 J-10B
76 (approx) current F-16 fleet, upgraded as much as possible.
36 J-31

Pakistan should focus on getting used F16s and upgrade to at least block 3 for its JF-17 program. It'll learn as it makes the plane better. Then, in 5-10 years purchase whatever China is producing that has good benefits (purchase technology or something what India is trying to do with Rafael) and meanwhile launch our next gen program for a new aircraft (think block 3 will be ready around that time).

It is high time we start focusing on further developing jets on our own. It will not only improve economy, but education also among other things.

 

[pursuit of happiness]

So what would your likely list look like in terms of numbers? just curious.. Im not sure more F-16's are a viable option, as they are sanction prone. Additionally, the US hasn't supplied Pakistan anything of note for quite some time.

Ideally: (whilst not being overly optimistic)

150 JF-17 Block 2/3
60/70 J-10B
76 (approx) current F-16 fleet, upgraded as much as possible.
36 J-31



QUOTE="WishLivePak, post: 6693520, member: 157277"]Pakistan should focus on getting used F16s and upgrade to at least block 3 for its JF-17 program. It'll learn as it makes the plane better. Then, in 5-10 years purchase whatever China is producing that has good benefits (purchase technology or something what India is trying to do with Rafael) and meanwhile launch our next gen program for a new aircraft (think block 3 will be ready around that time).

It is high time we start focusing on further developing jets on our own. It will not only improve economy, but education also among other things.

[/QUOTE]
--
they will get good number of f16 when f35 start coming ..
looking pak last performance they can get that clearnace from usa.. they may for f16

 

[Folkindia]

If Pakistan really must go for the F-16 option, they need to be of higher spec and a lot more of them. Around 60/70 newer models, complementing the existing F-16 fleet, potential 150 JF-17, before turning to a couple of squadrons of fifth generation fighters in the coming years. @pursuit of happiness

Ps. Sorry not sure why it won't let me quote you, tagged you instead.

 

[pursuit of happiness]

If Pakistan really must go for the F-16 option, they need to be of higher spec and a lot more of them. Around 60/70 newer models, complementing the existing F-16 fleet, potential 150 JF-17, before turning to a couple of squadrons of fifth generation fighters in the coming years. @pursuit of happiness

Ps. Sorry not sure why it won't let me quote you, tagged you instead.

--
thanks for tag..
if you put yourself in PAF position.. what ever aviable in budjet and can perform well is good for paf..
with all limitaton they still keeping boat a flot where its neigbours adding Sus and Rafael ( if they able to do)
F16 is most desired option for them as all know.. they know that baby in and out .. and can get good blocks if west starts inducting f35s.
JF -17 is good but no where near f16s .. so off the shelf f16 is good ...
5th genration figter only aviablt from china.. but china is way long distance from same ..
so what left is f16 ... jf17