No J-10B for PAF | A.C Khalid, calls for a focus on 5th generation platform instead.

[fatman17]

Sir.
There is another problem and that is the reliability of AL31 engine itself. The Indian MKI fleet is sufferring from problems and the recent J10 crash has been attributed to engine failure. My feeling is that rather than convincing the Russians it is more a case of PAF getting cold feet in view of limited gains from a lot of investment and also due to engine problems . Even on this forum or on the sister forum there have been posts regarding serious flame outs of J10s observed by PAF on recent exercise with PLAAF. I think the PAF decision to not go down the J10 route is the most pragmatic decision that it could have taken under the current circumstances of severe austerity due to a crippling economic crunch. The RD93 ROUTE seems to suit us as it is a rough and ready engine with reasonable thrust. As confidence builds up, I suspect we may see an offering for J31 as well from a later iteration of this family. Although the offer would be towards the Chinese or the joint Sino Pak team, It should tell us how serious PAF is about inducting J31. So our priority should be in my humble opinion should be RD93 overhaul and some offset and minor parts building facilities with a view to getting the later iteration of "la familia de RD93" as the need arises and a written undertaking from the russkies to support and upgrade our facilities as required
araz

AL-31 is very reliable, as reliable as any russian engine.

 

[SipahSalar]

Indians have to understand China has the edge here over Russia. Its Russia's first time building a stealth jet whereas China has access to decades of work done by USA on stealth aircraft design.

 

[monitor]

I think instead of J-10B as the Russian are now willing to give military hardware to Pakistan 2~3 squadron of J-11/15/16 with reliable AL-31 or any Russian engine would be more logical if Su-35 is not available .it will give Pakistan the breathing place until the J-31 arrival .

 

[salman-1]

J-10B is design to deal with J-15 or F-15 caliber aircraft . J-15/16 wont be available for export for many years as chinese are putting their local WS-10 engines which have limited engine life and reletively very slow production rate. J-10 B or FC-20 with AL-31F engines giving 31000 pounds of thrust are highly suitable for Air forces like Pakistan. Single engine with high weight to thrust ratio and economical to operate. AESA Radar and other tested variety of weapons systems would be a complete solution for PAF against Indian Su-30MK2

 

[Zarvan]

We should not drop this we should go for 72 to 90 active J-10 B

 

[Viper0011.]

Decision to ayse li , like if 18 , 5th generation jets were parked out side of the Mr Chairman's office , oh nahi yar we want 5th generation
Flying 1970's planes and not taking brand new J10B jets
Wo bhi kiya din the , when Mushraf Sahib was incharge anything was possible. We were getting BRAND NEW planes , 36 plane and finally get rid of 1970s stuffDecember 2014 was the arrival date of 36 Jets .... !!!! What an opportunity Missed

Patience my man, patience. It is all working out for the better. JFT Block II is going to be developed in 3 location unlike the JFT Block I. So Pakistan will start to see a rapid production of the Block II from this month onwards. Some 40-50 planes per year between China and Pakistan (if no foreign orders come through). Block II is like 75% closer to F-16's block 52. And it beyond ALL older planes in the PAF's inventory. So that's a generation worth of leap.

Plus, the J-10C is slightly more advanced than JFT Block II. Not a lot of difference. The gov't is working on the economy and ties with the Russians. You'll end up getting more -16's block 52, some used -16's MLU and a few squadrons of Mig-35 or SU-37, either one brings a LOT of capability needed against the IAF in terms of heavies.

Last, economic growth will result in a more steathier JFT Block III with local production (CAN'T beat that) plus a co-partnership with J-31 or another similar program with local assembly and building ability. Can't beat that either

 

[salman-1]

There will be no Mig-35 as its the last product of Mikoyan Family. Even India Iraq and other countries using Migs dropped it. Su-37 is not an easy cake to swallow as its cost per unit is around $90-100 million per piece plus fly away cost not affordable for our little Air force which always avoid a twin engine. Whats more easy would be from Russia only would be choppers and used equipment as T-80 UD tanks type deals.
Russia won't open their every military artical so soon . You have to deepen relations in years for top military deals. AL-31F engines were not permitted when we were ready to buy 58 FC-20 as India still have alot of say over Russia .
Now we should ask those things first which suits us more and affordable. Their are many institutes in China working for future developments of 4-4.5th gen Radars jamming equipment, laser designators , Jdams with glide system, anti Tank weapons, electro-optical pods for FC-20, J-15/16 type aircrafts as they have access to this technology from west. F-16 blk 52 technology would not be a far secret for them to be used on these aircrafts. These latest weapons are not fired from any ordinary fire control systems. They need alot of navigation and hi tech computers and Radar systems for integration

 

[TOPGUN]

I say go for the 36 as it was planned , stay in to fill the stop gap get further used F-16's keep the thunders rolling and then wait for J-31 its a win - win situation but again dreams are made for fools reality and money $ speaks any language hope PAF chooses wisely .

 

[A2Z]

Patience my man, patience. It is all working out for the better. JFT Block II is going to be developed in 3 location unlike the JFT Block I. So Pakistan will start to see a rapid production of the Block II from this month onwards. Some 40-50 planes per year between China and Pakistan (if no foreign orders come through). Block II is like 75% closer to F-16's block 52. And it beyond ALL older planes in the PAF's inventory. So that's a generation worth of leap.

Plus, the J-10C is slightly more advanced than JFT Block II. Not a lot of difference. The gov't is working on the economy and ties with the Russians. You'll end up getting more -16's block 52, some used -16's MLU and a few squadrons of Mig-35 or SU-37, either one brings a LOT of capability needed against the IAF in terms of heavies.

Last, economic growth will result in a more steathier JFT Block III with local production (CAN'T beat that) plus a co-partnership with J-31 or another similar program with local assembly and building ability. Can't beat that either

Can you please tell the other 2 locations apart from PAC Kamra where thunders will be built?
Don't you think 75% capability of block 52 is a bit more to expect from block 2 of thunder?
Lastly more MLUed F-16 are possible but block 52, Mig-35 and Su-37 is never gonna happen.

 

[Viper0011.]

Can you please tell the other 2 locations apart from PAC Kamra where thunders will be built?
Don't you think 75% capability of block 52 is a bit more to expect from block 2 of thunder?
Lastly more MLUed F-16 are possible but block 52, Mig-35 and Su-37 is never gonna happen.

If I remember correctly and some can correct me if I am wrong, there was a location in Sindh somewhere already being setup for manufacturing. It was supposed to start producing these planes from early 2015. Then, the Chinese were thinking about adding another facility for just JFT as there is a block III in the pipes too and some foreign buyers, who'd rather buy from China directly than going through Pakistan, due to their existing financial and trade agreements with the Chinese. So that gives you three locations (or four if you count the original manufacturing location).

I think if Pakistan becomes successful in rooting out these terrorists and cleaning up the entire FATA, Block 52 is entirely possible. I personally think US will be more than happy to help an ally who finally took the final step in eradicating AL-Qaeda of the FATA map. I thought there was the option to buy 18 more block 52's. But they are expensive so $$ may be an issue.

SU and Mig can definitely happen IMO. Depends on how the negotiations are done. The Russians are needing money desperately due to sanctions so they'll sell anything to help their economy.

I'd skip J-10 all together. The best and most affordable YET higher quality option for Pakistan is to acquire used F-16's in number for like 50% of the price. MLU'd -16's would give you the best bang for your buck and they still have a service life of like 10-15 years more. Till then, you could develop your JFT's block II and III's. Between -16's MLU'd and JFT block III's and some stealthy option, this is more than enough fire power to defend yourself properly.

 

[A2Z]

If I remember correctly and some can correct me if I am wrong, there was a location in Sindh somewhere already being setup for manufacturing. It was supposed to start producing these planes from early 2015. Then, the Chinese were thinking about adding another facility for just JFT as there is a block III in the pipes too and some foreign buyers, who'd rather buy from China directly than going through Pakistan, due to their existing financial and trade agreements with the Chinese. So that gives you three locations (or four if you count the original manufacturing location).

I think if Pakistan becomes successful in rooting out these terrorists and cleaning up the entire FATA, Block 52 is entirely possible. I personally think US will be more than happy to help an ally who finally took the final step in eradicating AL-Qaeda of the FATA map. I thought there was the option to buy 18 more block 52's. But they are expensive so $$ may be an issue.

SU and Mig can definitely happen IMO. Depends on how the negotiations are done. The Russians are needing money desperately due to sanctions so they'll sell anything to help their economy.

I'd skip J-10 all together. The best and most affordable YET higher quality option for Pakistan is to acquire used F-16's in number for like 50% of the price. MLU'd -16's would give you the best bang for your buck and they still have a service life of like 10-15 years more. Till then, you could develop your JFT's block II and III's. Between -16's MLU'd and JFT block III's and some stealthy option, this is more than enough fire power to defend yourself properly.

I totally agree with you that 2nd hand F-16 are our best option, PAF should sweep all the 2nd hand F-16 they can find either from USA, Turkey or any other country that is ready to sell them.This would not only fill the gaps but provide JFT the time to mature.
However as far as Russia is concerned yes they wont mind the money coming in but its close ally India wont let that happen. But I might be wrong as well with India looking more towards west for the weapons and Russia agreeing for the sale of Mi-28 any thing is possible.

 

[帅的一匹]

PAF would have owned at least 50 plus J10 if Musharaff was not kicked out.

PAF would have owned at least 50 plus J10 if Musharaff was not kicked out.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

lol We will get 2 sparking Block 2 thunders instead of 36 BRAND NEW J10B Jets good going Airforce chief....

Let me know once you secure the Stealth plane deal in 2040

 

[princefaisal]

If J-10B has any some sort of input from PAF, then it should be procured. It has AESA radar, higher engine power, 11 hardpoints, DSI, wide angle HUD, Helmet mounted sight, some RAM coating, IRST, IFR, Forward-looking Infra-red Laser Attack Targeting pod, ECM housing on the vertical stabilizer, MAWs sensor etc.. It is especially designed for high altitude BVR engagements against Su-30mki.

 

[A2Z]

PAF should have got J-10s by now but it looks like we left it so that the funds could be used in thunder program.
Moreover if things goes smoothly and economy improves we might see the features of J-10 in block-3 of the thunder or even an upgraded block 2 that has AESA, more powerfull variant of WS-13 and HMS.