No fighters for pakistan: Russia

[Cool_Soldier]

Well Said Brother, India has failed for the past 70 Years and By the will of Allah.. no one can dare Change"anything" in Pakistan !

Let India do Fake Strikes and Obstruct ( Unsuccessful ? ) F16s or Su35s , Almighty... like always... is with the Land of the Pure.

You can not change the reality by so called strikes and begging other not to favour Pakistan

 

[CHI RULES]

PAF is NOT INTERSTED IN ANY NEW PROCUREMENT OTHER THAN JF17and the f-16s

Everything else is just fan base dreams. If finances imptoves tremendously a case for j-10 vs j-11 might be made but that is very unlikely... Goal is 150-250 thunders and 100- f-16s for now.

Do you really think that we can counter SU30s going to be further upgraded along with coming Rafael with our 76 F16s in current configuration.

 

[MilSpec]

That part Sums it all up .. except for China no other country will give us soft loans or condition to buy Modern Aircraft , now we can blame the world's downing economy or our own corrupt Politicians who eaten up billions of dollars ..

The generational leap that aircrafts have taken and the price they command looks big, but if compare to the general growth in GDP, its actually not that bad. Imagine an F16 that was sold a 14 Million and compare it to the most recent ones offered to Pakistan.
ref: http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA147543
download the pdf ref to page 49.

Today a f16 that PAF wants stands at about $87 million. Also factor in the fact that in 1988 1 USD was equal to 20pkr compared to 100 PKR today.
So an aircraft PAF bought back in the 80 costed them About 20x14Mill PKR, today it would cost Pakistan 100*87mil Pkr. that is a 31 times the cost that it needs to procure the aircraft it wants/

Also understand that Pakistan's gdp is almost 5 times that it was back in the late 80's , so the fact of the matter is at 87million dollars per aircraft, the aircraft is almost 31 times the cost of a similar scenario back in the late 80's.

Aircrafts are 31 times the late 80's cost, your economy is at 5 times the late 80's and that remains the issue.

 

[jupiter2007]

Let these End!an cry like a fool but they can't change the dynamics of the Multipolar world. It's in the interest of both USA and Russia to resolve crises in Afghanistan.These so call Western Nations can't resolve the problems in Afghanistan without the help from Pakistan.

Isolation? Saudi Arabia and UAE need Pakistan, they cried and threaten us when we decided to stay neutral in Yemen crisis.
Saudi Arabia needsPakistan to mediate between SA and Iran.
China and Central Asian countries.need Pakistan for trade and easy access to the ocean.
India needs Pakistan as a trade route to send their goods to Afghanistan and Central Asian countries, 500+ KM road/train route is easier than going through the sea route.

 

[MastanKhan]

I was talking about jet fighters, specifically the Su-35, which some Pakistani folks here on PDF though PAF was going to purchase any day now. I'm well aware the Russia provides engines, as well as transport helicopters to Pakistan. And the only reason Russia is providing engine to JF-17 is because the Chinese engines are not up to standards.

Hi,

In weapons systems---it does not work like that---. You simply just don't change the equipment when a new item arrives---even if it is working----because you already have setup and infra structure for the current equipment---.

Next---there is nothing wrong with the russian engine---. It is working perfectly.


And to other poster---who is writing " i don't know much about the air force " but then continuing with the comments saying " I think "---.

Well---the thing is---the thinking is not good enough---you have to make a statement in historical reference of battle fought in the past---the romans---the mongols---the russians---the germans---the Turks---the english---and explain why light is superior to heavies---where the heavies are more maneuverable than the light---where the heavies carry more deadly weapons than the lights---where the heavies can see farther than the lights---where the heavies can jam the lights more efficiently---where the heavies can stay afloat for longer hours than the lights---.

I mean to say---we are not discussing the aesthetic beauty or the ugliness of an item.

 

[jupiter2007]

I was talking about jet fighters, specifically the Su-35, which some Pakistani folks here on PDF though PAF was going to purchase any day now. I'm well aware the Russia provides engines, as well as transport helicopters to Pakistan. And the only reason Russia is providing engine to JF-17 is because the Chinese engines are not up to standards.

Russian didn't say that they will never sell fighter jet to Pakistan. Pakistan is going to evaluate all options and buy what they think it's best for them. Bringing a new fighter jet requires planning and building proper facilities to support it. Pakistan already went through this process with Mirage, F-16s, and when they started the JF-17 project.

In current situation, there aren't too many options available, used F-16s (Jordan, Europe, USA), Used Su-27/30, J-11x/J-16x, Su-/35, J-10C (rejected by PAF), JH-7b (rejected by PAF), used Mig-29 (rejected by PAF)

 

[abrar khan]

Exactly

Mean you are agreeing that Russia will sale anything , once Pakistan want to buy. Actually you cannot predict the future on a single statement. Whenever Pak will have sufficient budget they will buy it. Participants here on the forum or at any forum other than PDF guess on the basis of news or rumors, but they are not authority to finalize any arm deal, and you & me are in same group. Therefore no need to be much excited on today's news. Hope it will serve you better.
Give respect earn respect.

 

[Khafee]

In that case Pak has used Chinese variants of russian jets.. we have also used/fought and trained Arabs on soviet jets...

As for twin engine... the last twin engined jet PAF used was A-5 which was a bomber...

Dumb kids don't have a bloody clue as to what goes on in the real world, but love to yap their heads off. Somebody needs to tell them about the types of aircraft not in PAF inventory, on which PAF pilots trained pilots. That ought really set their behinds on fire!

 

[ziaulislam]

Do you really think that we can counter SU30s going to be further upgraded along with coming Rafael with our 76 F16s in current configuration.

its not question whether we can or not..its simply the question of affordability..we simply cannot match an econmy 10 times as big of us
were we able to match the mig 21 with f-6 & sabres, obviously not but we had to ....

lastly, yes if we have AESA jf-17, equipped with 4-6 sd-10a, ithas a very good chance against su 30, or any current Indian fighter, better than what sabre had against mig21

 

[Khafee]

Ni,

And neither am I---but you do have a point in the sense that for any new system---it takes time to integrate---and that time would be enough to acclimatize with a new machine---

Sir,

In this particular scenario, I can guarantee you PAF has an edge. They are extremely familiar with every aircraft in the PLAAF inventory, and have flown & trained in the Su27 & 30's. They crew chiefs & technical team leaders, have worked with their Chinese counter parts and know these aircrafts inside out. To the extent of fine tuning the PLAAF's SOP's.

Although a few hiccups are to be expected, but IF inducted, from delivery to FOC, will be extremely fast.

@Windjammer @Indus Falcon Can shed more light on this particular angle.

Best Regards

The generational leap that aircrafts have taken and the price they command looks big, but if compare to the general growth in GDP, its actually not that bad. Imagine an F16 that was sold a 14 Million and compare it to the most recent ones offered to Pakistan.
ref: http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA147543
download the pdf ref to page 49.
View attachment 344343

Today a f16 that PAF wants stands at about $87 million. Also factor in the fact that in 1988 1 USD was equal to 20pkr compared to 100 PKR today.
So an aircraft PAF bought back in the 80 costed them About 20x14Mill PKR, today it would cost Pakistan 100*87mil Pkr. that is a 31 times the cost that it needs to procure the aircraft it wants/

Also understand that Pakistan's gdp is almost 5 times that it was back in the late 80's , so the fact of the matter is at 87million dollars per aircraft, the aircraft is almost 31 times the cost of a similar scenario back in the late 80's.

Aircrafts are 31 times the late 80's cost, your economy is at 5 times the late 80's and that remains the issue.

In reality, the only issue is the heartburn Indians have ( to put it politely), at the thought of PAF inducting a new platform. Cash is simply not an issue. What is an issue, is the supply of parts, in the event of hostilities.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

And A-5 is not a fighter.Traditionally PAF has never used Twin engined Fighter.

It was a ground support jet.. Twin engined;

Nothing wrong with that though,but the question remains,Is PAF even going on that way??Russians denied.Pakistan never confirmed.We only have PDF rumours,just like J-10 and J-31.

It was not Pak but Russian media that bragged about Pakistans interest in Su-35 in the first place..

J-10 or 31 were not rumours.. The deal for J-10 was signed by Musharaf but cancelled .. J-31 was pointed out by none other than the PAF which considers it an option for the 5th gen role.

 

[The Eagle]

Cash is simply not an issue. What is an issue, is the supply of parts, in the event of hostilities.

Well, Sir, it is always about the suitable platform that can fulfill the requirements of PAF as per need. Money is an issue until & unless there is no urgent need of platform and the day PAF finds out the right bird, i hope, we will be seeing the same in good numbers. For us, Russian supply seems to be unstable. IMO, it is about to wait for official statement and till then, let it be the money problem to float the boat.

 

[Khafee]

Well, Sir, it is always about the suitable platform that can fulfill the requirements of PAF as per need. Money is an issue until & unless there is no urgent need of platform and the day PAF finds out the right bird, i hope, we will be seeing the same in good numbers. For us, Russian supply seems to be unstable. IMO, it is about to wait for official statement and till then, let it be the money problem to float the boat.

Actually Russia, is a very dependent supplier. AND with PLAAF having the same type of aircraft, parts is not an issue.

 

[Indus Falcon]

I wouldn't be so quick to kick the bucket. The guy being quoted is basically the head of a trade promotion agency - Nothing more. Some times defence deals follow a very unconventional trajectory.

Sir @Indus Falcon has more info on said topic.

Within the blind speculations, unsubstantiated rumors, and senseless chatter, my words hold no ground. So I've decided to keep quiet, and enjoy my peace.

 

[C130]

Pakistan is going to have to face the reality that it can't match India in the air, and the arrival of S-400 will further cement their air superiority.

How does Pakistan counter this??