No ammo, air defence obsolete: Army Chief to PM

[janon]

Martial Race my a**. Everyone can be martial if they believe in the cause they are fighting for and as for India being not a fighting nation..our biggest proof that we are not is the country of Bangladesh.

Yes, the best proof of independent india's fighting qualities might be the fact that bangladesh exists. If India wasn't martial enough, his country wouldn't have been formed.

The very reason that he is sporting the flag that he is sporting is because India proved its mettle as a warfighting nation.

A person with the name "asad71", sporting a bangladesh flag, saying India can't fight. Could anything be more ironic? The very reason they became asad in 71 is because of....

 

[cloud_9]

PAAN SINGH, pandu you are just a fascist thug from "kachha/chaddi" party

 

[Screambowl]

Gen. VK singh still holds the post as the army chief. I can be very satisfied what an army chief says about our inventory than a bureaucrat sitting in south block.

What I know is, If army Chief says that they are short of weapons, MoD should provide it, without questioning because there is no alternative for that.

 

[cloud_9]

March 29, 2012:
The state of affairs in the Ministry of Defence and the Army Headquarters has plunged to unprecedented depths in recent months. There is immediate need to put an end to mutual recriminations in a spirit of accommodation and understanding.

The Defence Minister, Mr A.K. Antony, is a good man, ‘squeaky clean' and all that, but does not give the impression of having the needed grip or even being in charge.

The Defence Ministry has clearly been unequal to the role it should play in keeping its ears to the ground and ensuring that the relations with the service brass were smooth and harmonious. The nation's defence and security are being jeopardised in the process.

Much of what the country has witnessed in the last few months is the result of the build-up of irritants over many years.

They spring from a misconception among netas and babus about the so-called civilian control of the military. It does not mean that the military is subservient to the netas and babus and should be dancing to their tune.

The imperious Indira Gandhi herself realised it when General Sam Manekshaw point-blank refused to comply with her order to march into East Pakistan on a date of her choosing. Actually, at some point, Gen.Manekshaw's bluntness made her even nervously ask him whether he was planning a coup!

There is bound to be trouble if the netas and babus deal with Defence forces in the same wooden and arrogant manner which ordinary citizens have to suffer from them in their day-to-day interface with them.

The Defence Minister downwards, and this goes especially for the Defence Secretary and his flock of bureaucrats, should regard themselves as helpers and facilitators, instead of functioning like colonial overlords, expecting the members of the Armed Forces to kowtow to their dictates.

The fact is that even 65 years after Independence, civilian functionaries in the Defence Ministry are continuing to be mere note writers and file-pushers, raising queries and objections.

That was why George Fernandes, when he was the Defence Minister, bodily transported to Siachen glacier and Sir Creek, without adequate protection against the harsh conditions there, some Joint Secretaries and Additional Secretaries of his Ministry who were shuttling from one desk to another files containing proposals of the Army Headquarters on such essential proposals as provision for winter clothing.

AVOIDABLE DISCOMFITURE

The civilian netas and babus, in general, lack the sensitivity, empathy and imagination to understand that disciplined professional forces such as the Army, Navy and the Air Force, unlike themselves, are called upon to sacrifice their lives, if need be, in discharging the most vital and sensitive responsibility of ensuring the defence and security of the nation.

Those leading, or forming part of, the Defence forces have to take split second decisions in the course of their duties if they have to live another day.

I have no hesitation in holding that in every matter that affects the relations between the Defence Ministry and the leadership of the Defence Forces, it is the function of the Defence Minister and his civilian bureaucracy, collectively to take the lead in resolving issues as they arise without letting them spill over to the public domain.

In my view, the Government's discomfiture on each of the counts relating to General V.K. Singh's age, reported offer of bribe to him and his letter to the Prime Minister could have easily been avoided if only the Defence Ministry officials had grasped the implications the issues involved from the earliest stages.

One method of heading off undesirable contingencies of this kind is for the Defence Minister to hold daily meetings the first thing in the morning with the three Defence Chiefs and give them ample time and opportunity to air their views as a prelude to evolving a coordinated approach to meet emerging situations.

The short point is that the motivation and morale of the Defence Forces fall into a category all their own, and do not lend themselves to the application of time-(dis)honoured brow-beating practices of bureaucrats and politicians.

Ill-tempered calls for sacking the General and the like will only cause further aggravation. The stand-off is serious enough for the Prime Minister to intervene and pull everyone back from the brink.

Business Line : Columns / B S Raghavan : Endangering Defence by ego clashes

 

[Arzamas 16]

If this is true, then India can go from having obsolete air defense to the most advanced in region by just buying the S-400.

 

[SQ8]

This is a very superficial opinion (ok if from someone like Aryan B; not from you dude!).

The general has highlighted three critical points..

1. Lack of ammo for tanks.

2. Obsolete air defence units.

3. Lack of night fighting ability.

Even a cursory look at past reports emerging from independent media will tell you that these issues have been raised consistently by various authorities at various levels. Nothing sensational from the chief, he is an honest man doing his job!

E.G. Here is a look at Air defence units of IA.

SA-5, SA-6, SA-8, SA-13, artillary like schilka, tungushka.

Is this is not the very definition of OBSOLETE?

Werent the Pechora's updated?
The Sa-13 is still very potent... as is the Sa-6..
only the gammon is outdated.
There are still batteries of S-300's.. Spyder sams..
Its simply a matter of pointing out the bad instead of the good.
Its like the UAE calling its Mirage 2000-9's outdated when compared to its Block-60's..
but against what relative threat?

Ill maintain my PoV of funding whining...
its interservice jealousy at its best since the AF has its MMRCA to boot and the navy its Carriers and Scorpenes.
The army wants a bigger share of the pie.. and thats that.

 

[sancho]

Gen. VK singh still holds the post as the army chief. I can be very satisfied what an army chief says about our inventory than a bureaucrat sitting in south block.

What I know is, If army Chief says that they are short of weapons, MoD should provide it, without questioning because there is no alternative for that.

One should ask him, IF your allegations are true, what did you have done against it in the last few years? Why IA's procurement of SR SAMs is still delayed, why didn't they simply bought the same system as a stopgap that IAF is buying, if the situation is really so difficult?...
At the end he is in charge and he should do anything to speed up the modernisation, but the fact is IA is the force which has the biggest "internal" problems when it comes to modernisation. This is nothing than a try to distract from the bad press he got in the last few month and to put pressure on defence ministry.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

One should ask him, IF your allegations are true, what did you have done against it in the last few years? Why IA's procurement of SR SAMs is still delayed, why didn't they simply bought the same system as a stopgap that IAF is buying, if the situation is really so difficult?...
At the end he is in charge and he should do anything to speed up the modernisation, but the fact is IA is the force which has the biggest "internal" problems when it comes to modernisation. This is nothing than a try to distract from the bad press he got in the last few month and to put pressure on defence ministry.

Our problem was the long range SAMs

Werent the Pechora's updated?
The Sa-13 is still very potent... as is the Sa-6..
only the gammon is outdated.
There are still batteries of S-300's.. Spyder sams..
Its simply a matter of pointing out the bad instead of the good.
Its like the UAE calling its Mirage 2000-9's outdated when compared to its Block-60's..
but against what relative threat?

Ill maintain my PoV of funding whining...
its interservice jealousy at its best since the AF has its MMRCA to boot and the navy its Carriers and Scorpenes.
The army wants a bigger share of the pie.. and thats that.

The S -300 is a rumor, no official confirmation.

Something i believe we need the most.

If this is true, then India can go from having obsolete air defense to the most advanced in region by just buying the S-400.

Er...... S- 400 export versions are not available until 2015.

I think India is considering PAC -3 and S - 300 PMU2

 

[sancho]

Our problem was the long range SAMs

He said air defence is obsolete and that was just one example where he could have done it better. T72 modernisation with night fighting capability for example, IA rejected the Tank EX solution and wanted foreign techs instead. There are many procurements IA messed up and now they complain about it. If he wants to make a point, he should have pointed out what he did to counter these problems first and then point the fingers to others.

 

[ganimi kawa]

Werent the Pechora's updated?
The Sa-13 is still very potent... as is the Sa-6..
only the gammon is outdated.
There are still batteries of S-300's.. Spyder sams..
Its simply a matter of pointing out the bad instead of the good.
Its like the UAE calling its Mirage 2000-9's outdated when compared to its Block-60's..
but against what relative threat?

Ill maintain my PoV of funding whining...
its interservice jealousy at its best since the AF has its MMRCA to boot and the navy its Carriers and Scorpenes.
The army wants a bigger share of the pie.. and thats that.

1. Pechora underwent a very limited upgrade. The offer for conversion to Pechora 2 would have made some impact but that file has been gathering dust for quite a while. Also almost all the Pechora units are with IAF and are tasked with AFB defence or some other vital installations, not army columns.

2. Batteries of S 300 is still a "phantom phenomenon". Even if we assume they exist; most of them would do little else than defend Delhi.

3. SpyDer is a good system but still not inducted and it will take some time to reach critical force level.

4.S 13 is a decent threat against PAF but that is all there is to it. Against PLAAF; not so much.

5. We differ on SA 6 status. It was last upgraded in 02 in a very perfunctory manner. Has been taged for replacement by Akash ages ago.

6. In a nutshell, almost every AD system in IA is obsolete in light of the chinese threat. Yes, there are systems being inducted which are much more capable; but at a snail's pace courtesy Crap*y politicians.

The chief has reported the current status of IA's AD arm and he is spot on!

 

[Big Boss]

One should ask him, IF your allegations are true, what did you have done against it in the last few years? Why IA's procurement of SR SAMs is still delayed, why didn't they simply bought the same system as a stopgap that IAF is buying, if the situation is really so difficult?...
At the end he is in charge and he should do anything to speed up the modernisation, but the fact is IA is the force which has the biggest "internal" problems when it comes to modernisation. This is nothing than a try to distract from the bad press he got in the last few month and to put pressure on defence ministry.

What a honest man can do in corrupt to core system where forget about MoD there are lots of thugs in the army itself who plays dirty politics.

And the answer to ur question is that he have written a similar latter to the defense minister 18 months back.

He have just sent the same latter to the prime minister when defense minister refused to move his butt.

 

[SQ8]

1. Pechora underwent a very limited upgrade. The offer for conversion to Pechora 2 would have made some impact but that file has been gathering dust for quite a while. Also almost all the Pechora units are with IAF and are tasked with AFB defence or some other vital installations, not army columns.

2. Batteries of S 300 is still a "phantom phenomenon". Even if we assume they exist; most of them would do little else than defend Delhi.

3. SpyDer is a good system but still not inducted and it will take some time to reach critical force level.

4.S 13 is a decent threat against PAF but that is all there is to it. Against PLAAF; not so much.

5. We differ on SA 6 status. It was last upgraded in 02 in a very perfunctory manner. Has been taged for replacement by Akash ages ago.

6. In a nutshell, almost every AD system in IA is obsolete in light of the chinese threat. Yes, there are systems being inducted which are much more capable; but at a snail's pace courtesy Crap*y politicians.

The chief has reported the current status of IA's AD arm and he is spot on!

1.Still an effective system nonetheless...
2. Dehli is where they are most needed.
3. But is on its way.. so it counts.
4.You over estimate the PLAAF.
5.Still good enough against perceived threats.
6.. I think the Chinese capability is being over estimated...and the Chief is echoing a sentiment of being left behind in the modernization fund.. wants vs needs..

 

[janon]

1.Still an effective system nonetheless...
2. Dehli is where they are most needed.
3. But is on its way.. so it counts.
4.You over estimate the PLAAF.
5.Still good enough against perceived threats.
6.. I think the Chinese capability is being over estimated...and the Chief is echoing a sentiment of being left behind in the modernization fund.. wants vs needs..

What is the state of pakistan's air defence? Do they use so many different systems, like India does? Are they capable of performing satisfactorily against future threats (say, from rafales)? I'm asking about the army air defence only.

And how do pakistan's air defence systems compare with India's in terms of being obsolete/satisfactory/cutting edge? Would you say pakistan is better off in terms of its needs?

And is pakistan looking to aquire anything new in this department?

(I know that it is pointless to compare them head to head, since these are not going to be pitted against each other, but against enemy aircrafts.)

 

[ganimi kawa]

1.Still an effective system nonetheless...
2. Dehli is where they are most needed.
3. But is on its way.. so it counts.
4.You over estimate the PLAAF.
5.Still good enough against perceived threats.
6.. I think the Chinese capability is being over estimated...and the Chief is echoing a sentiment of being left behind in the modernization fund.. wants vs needs..

1. Still not effective, IMHO. And anyway, these are with the IAF and not IA. The chief is talking about protecting the advancing coloumns.

2. The IA chief has to think of many other places other than Delhi. For IA, S 300 means nothing on the actual battle line.

3. Perhaps and that is why the good general just wants to speed it up.

4. I'll have to recheck my data. I guess you know better .

5. No way, bro!

6 It is a crying need which needs to be taken as seriously as possible.

 

[SQ8]

What is the state of pakistan's air defence? Do they use so many different systems, like India does? Are they capable of performing satisfactorily against future threats (say, from rafales)? I'm asking about the army air defence only.

And how do pakistan's air defence systems compare with India's in terms of being obsolete/satisfactory/cutting edge? Would you say pakistan is better off in terms of its needs?

And is pakistan looking to aquire anything new in this department?

(I know that it is pointless to compare them head to head, since these are not going to be pitted against each other, but against enemy aircrafts.)

Calling Pakistan's Air defence systems lacking is an understatement.
By Air Def I refer to weapon systems only and not C4I as that is top notch.
The PAF only recently has inducted the SPADA system which is good for airfield local airspace defence against Cruise and Fighter attacks. these augment fixed manpad sites.. and a single upgraded HQ-2 system for Islamabad airspace.
making most PAF bases vunerable to stand off strikes.
The Army though only has MANPADS to protect its columns.. of which it has plenty..effective enough against low altitude strikers as a deterrant but ineffective against high altitude precision Cluster strikes(ala WCMD)..
AAA however is plenty.. with optical types populating the columns on M-113's.. and radar tracked ones protecting bases and depots. Again these are excellent harassment and cause of consternation for close in low level strikes.. but pointless against long rang cruise or high alt attacks.

So any aircraft may have headaches going into this ADGE if a dumb bomb sortie is intended.. but a Rafale(or otherwise).. armed with apache Clusterfire's(or equivalent)... is going to get away unscathed.
LGB equipped high alt strikes on PAF airfields will also find themselves in a fix.. but those using stand off weapons like the Brahmos will very likely live to fly another day.