Niqab becoming a flash point in Canada

[rangbaaz]

freedom of practicing a religion should never be taken away.

 

[DeathGod]

Niqab, Hijab , Burqa etc are signs of oppression to say the least ( esp if people are forcing woman to wear them).

You want the woman not to be seen or what?

I mean for starters , the purpose of the burqa or niqab gives me a sense of hypocrisy. We are not living in 15th century where a guy will see you woman , like her and grab her for himself.

I cant even imagine the problems women have to face while wearing such unfriendly/unhealthy clothing unless they are in sub-saharan desert.
(Seriously guys I find Islam too intolerant about the followers of the religion. You guys might be tolerant with other religions but I find it that the laws ( whether they have been twisted in recent times or otherwise) are just too strict and the room for manuveur too less.)

In India some women wear burqa and when they come to work place they will take it off to reveal a professional dress. If they are to do so then why wear it in first place. However I guess the trend is decreasing.Any sensible women having even a bit of self-esteem will not wear a dress that is a sign of being chained and oppressed. Some swallow the bitter pill and live on.

Btw I will be willing to listen to any practical application that such clothing provides in our day to day life ( esp in cities).

 

[Xtremeownage]

i think it's Muslims who, in the end, should lobby to have niqab/burqa banned; not just in those countries, but also in our own.

I can't stand the sight of those ninjas. It's purely an ancient Arabian phenomenon; not necessarily Islamic.


To me (and this is my interpretation) --- the woman is a sign of beauty and perfection. She must show her face.

It is the MEN who should keep their gaze down, rather than pressure woman to wear these stupid repressive outfits


of course, if woman wants to wear it --free from pressure --then she should be allowed to do it. We are also free-minded, freedom loving and God-fearing people.

The Niqab is Islamic!

And women are NOT perfect, they are just regular people! You have obviously been brainwashed by feminist propaganda!

Who made you the king of female faces? You certainly can not see the faces of the women who do not want to show it to you!

You are a Shia, and Niqab is a fundamental Sunni tradition! Don't make me start with all the Shia traditions like Taqiyya or Mutah. Okay!

Do not insult the Niqab! It is a fundamental practice of female modesty and submission to the almighty!

and quite frankly, nowhere in the Quran does it say they must cover themselves that way. But maybe I am ignorant and somebody can show me the verse where it says it is compulsory to adorn oneself in this way.

Tell me where in the Quran it tells you how to pray?

Islam is based off of Quran AND Sunnah!

So Hadith are necessary!

Translated verses:

"Take whatever the Apostle (SAW) gave you and stay away from whatever he forbade you." (59:7)

"O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger (SAW)" (4:59)

"Obey Allah, and obey the messenger (SAW)" (5:92)

"He who obeys the messenger (SAW) obeys Allah..." (4:80)

See, without understanding the life of the Prophet (SAW) we can never understand the Quran!

The Quran testifies to the necessity of the hadith!

 

[Xtremeownage]

Niqab, Hijab , Burqa etc are signs of oppression to say the least ( esp if people are forcing woman to wear them).

You want the woman not to be seen or what?

I mean for starters , the purpose of the burqa or niqab gives me a sense of hypocrisy. We are not living in 15th century where a guy will see you woman , like her and grab her for himself.

I cant even imagine the problems women have to face while wearing such unfriendly/unhealthy clothing unless they are in sub-saharan desert.
(Seriously guys I find Islam too intolerant about the followers of the religion. You guys might be tolerant with other religions but I find it that the laws ( whether they have been twisted in recent times or otherwise) are just too strict and the room for manuveur too less.)

In India some women wear burqa and when they come to work place they will take it off to reveal a professional dress. If they are to do so then why wear it in first place. However I guess the trend is decreasing.Any sensible women having even a bit of self-esteem will not wear a dress that is a sign of being chained and oppressed. Some swallow the bitter pill and live on.

Btw I will be willing to listen to any practical application that such clothing provides in our day to day life ( esp in cities).

Incorrect! Female Abortions in India are the highest in the world, also women abuse in India is the highest! You Hindus should worry about your own intolerance, before pointing a broken finger at us, you hypocrite!

The Niqab is not so that a man can grab or take a woman. That is not the reason why women wear it! Your entire post is ridiculous and false!

Sorry, but we Muslims are a civilized and progressive people! We value female modesty, and the Niqab is a symbol of female modesty and submission to the Almighty!

The Niqab is an Islamic tradition, and it frees women and gives them rights!

It is an act of enlightenment, which moves people away from the Jahilliyah (ignorance) of your kind of societies!

Islam is the most tolerant religion, and unlike Hinduism, which is based off of women abuse, sati, the caste system, violence, intolerence, and persecution. Islam will always be a religion of love, peace, tolerance, and progression!

 

[DeathGod]

Islam will always be a religion of love, peace, tolerance, and progression!

God willing it will be. But my dear friend your tone is one of hostility. You bring another region/religion into discussion and bypass the questions I asked. This kind of defense doesnt work. You're just fooling yourself.

Have you noticed how India is changing in the face of all those things that you mentioned. Its not about if any religion has more skeltons in the closet in the past, its about reformation. India is a sign of it. Be it Sikhs,Hindus,Muslims... we dont bar anything , be it conservativeness or modernity.

Time changes and people who dont change with time get lost in it.

I read about Niqab and Burqa on wiki a bit and how it is related to awrah. I wonder if those values exist today.

At the end of the day its me who decides what my religion is and how I am going to follow it. A person who once decended on this earth and wrote a few books cant and wont dictate what I do.

If I dont want to worship idols and be a hindu so be it. If I dont want to offer namaz and be a muslim so be it.

@XtremeOwnage
Your thinking will only lead to darker corners of this world. Your hate for Jews can also be seen from other threads. It will be good if you educate yourself and if not educate then follow the path of benevolance rather than hatred.

 

[Xtremeownage]

God willing it will be. But my dear friend your tone is one of hostility. You bring another region/religion into discussion and bypass the questions I asked. This kind of defense doesnt work. You're just fooling yourself.

Have you noticed how India is changing in the face of all those things that you mentioned. Its not about if any religion has more skeltons in the closet in the past, its about reformation. India is a sign of it. Be it Sikhs,Hindus,Muslims... we dont bar anything , be it conservativeness or modernity.

Time changes and people who dont change with time get lost in it.

I read about Niqab and Burqa on wiki a bit and how it is related to awrah. I wonder if those values exist today.

At the end of the day its me who decides what my religion is and how I am going to follow it. A person who once decended on this earth and wrote a few books cant and wont dictate what I do.

If I dont want to worship idols and be a hindu so be it. If I dont want to offer namaz and be a muslim so be it.

@XtremeOwnage
Your thinking will only lead to darker corners of this world. Your hate for Jews can also be seen from other threads. It will be good if you educate yourself and if not educate then follow the path of benevolance rather than hatred.

Why do you result with insulting me and coming up with false accusations in order to counter me? I do not hate jews, and my thinking is progressive, definately not dark! I am a man of love not hatred, and I promote and speak of love!

But I am also a man of truth, which opposes hypocricy with force and vigilance!

You threw the first stone by calling Islam intolerant to it's followers, which is absolutely false! I responded with the truth, and exposed Hinduism for what it is (Sikhism is very similiar to Hinduism in what I said in my previous post).

Do what you want, but don't instill your irrational hatred on me. The Niqab is a blessing and a sign of freedom and submission to God!

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Sometimes its best to let ppl who know their religion sort things out for themselves ....

when state tries to interfere it becomes tacky

 

[DeathGod]

Why do you result with insulting me and coming up with false accusations in order to counter me?

Dude... this is an online forum and we dont need to get carried away. Also I didnt accuse you of anything.

I just wrote what I felt. I feel that the way you write depicts hostility and hatred. Many would have felt the same about my writing.

My only attempt was for you to realise if you have hatred towards anyone else ( esp on basis of religion or region).

If you think you are perfect then so be it. I rest my case.

However, who wrote something like this:

"You threw the first stone by calling Islam intolerant to it's followers, which is absolutely false! I responded with the truth, and exposed Hinduism for what it is."

You should have apprised me of how tolerant Islam is to it's followers, responding by exposing another religion is no defense because even if I agree that Hinduism is bad and fanatical and what not , that wont help me change my view of Islam. Do you get the point?

 

[Rafale Girl]

i think it's Muslims who, in the end, should lobby to have niqab/burqa banned; not just in those countries, but also in our own.

I can't stand the sight of those ninjas. It's purely an ancient Arabian phenomenon; not necessarily Islamic.


To me (and this is my interpretation) --- the woman is a sign of beauty and perfection. She must show her face.

It is the MEN who should keep their gaze down, rather than pressure woman to wear these stupid repressive outfits


of course, if woman wants to wear it --free from pressure --then she should be allowed to do it. We are also free-minded, freedom loving and God-fearing people.

The Qur'an lays down the principle of the law of modesty. In Surah 24: An-Nur: 30 and 31, modesty is enjoined both upon Muslim men and Muslim women 4:

Muslim women are enjoined to "draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty" except in the presence of their husbands, other women, children, eunuchs and those men who are so closely related to them that they are not allowed to marry them. Although a self-conscious exhibition of one's "zeenat" (which means "that which appears to be beautiful" or "that which is used for embellishment or adornment") is forbidden, the Qur'an makes it clear that what a woman wears ordinarily is permissible. Another interpretation of this part of the passage is that if the display of "zeenat" is unintentional or accidental, it does not violate the law of modesty.

One of the verses in the Qur'an protects a woman's fundamental rights. Aya 59 from Sura al-Ahzab reads:

O Prophet! Tell Thy wives And daughters, and the Believing women, that They should cast their Outer garments over Their Persons (when outside): That they should be known (As such) and not Molested.


it is completely Islamic.....not an ancient Arabian phenomenon

Regards

R G.

 

[DeathGod]

The Qur'an lays down the principle of the law of modesty. In Surah 24: An-Nur: 30 and 31, modesty is enjoined both upon Muslim men and Muslim women 4:

I just have a few thing to note:

Islam like many religions of this world is a very old religion. The values that were cast in the system were quite valid during that time and for some centuries to come. Are they valid now? And if not, they are those laws flexible?

Today niqab seems more of a abberation from our progressive mindset. Rather wearing a Niqab so that others cant see you will be demeaning to my self-esteem in terms that the Niqab wearing person thinks that I am some kind of jerk whos gonna molest her.

I wonder how many women will agree to the purpose of Niqab or if in today's society its playing any role.

 

[Kompromat]

I think in Islam or Islamic countries, the scarf is more a rule to supress a womans sexuality, this kind of rule was common even in older Europe. However, in Canada and other parts of the western world, they view the enforcement for women to wear the scarf as socail suppression and that is what they are working against. Unfortunately for the newer Islamic generation of women, a lot of them , especially when the are brought up in western countries dont want to wear these scarves. But they are forced by their families to do so. I would think that this poses a predicament for Canadian lawmakers, because to ban (suppress) the wearing of the hijab is to go against (suppress) the rights of those who seriously want to wear the hijab.
One major contradiction of the wearing of the hijab I would like to point out, which is quite a mockery (if not hillarious) is that you will find in muslim countries, that women wear the hijab and wear body revealing, tight fitting , sexy clothes. Smoke ciggarettes. Wear heavy make up etc etc!! I mean, where is your sense of righteousness. and then you question the secularity of Canada , at least in Canada we will debate it and after due deliberations a decision will be made, for or against , depending on the decison of the majority . After all muslim families migrating to Canada, must have realized that their children would be influenced in these countries, and if they still dont like it, they are still free to move back to where they have come from. The good think about Canada is that racism is miniscule.
Come to think of it, why arent men forced to wear scarves, if a woman can tempt a man with her sexuality , so can a man tempt a woman. So it should be even handed, Moreover, is this not discrimination.??!!

They do wear Scarf so get your facts straight.



* Rest of your post is Based on lack of knowledge and personal conclusions which does not Matter in this particular case.

Regards:

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

I just have a few thing to note:

Islam like many religions of this world is a very old religion. The values that were cast in the system were quite valid during that time and for some centuries to come. Are they valid now? And if not, they are those laws flexible?

Today niqab seems more of a abberation from our progressive mindset. Rather wearing a Niqab so that others cant see you will be demeaning to my self-esteem in terms that the Niqab wearing person thinks that I am some kind of jerk whos gonna molest her.

I wonder how many women will agree to the purpose of Niqab or if in today's society its playing any role.

Religion is not fashion statement - you either follow it or you don't there is no "middle ground secular" what is preached - either follow a faith or you do what you want

The point is protection should be universal to ones that follow things and those who don't

Yes the values are all valid , we need to reclaim our own countries and install system that is islamic in our own states all these "CONSTITUTIONS" made by some lord and xyz in our countries need to go .. "garbage cans" ...

Its deemeaning to hear about women who sleep with 130 partners due to their progressive thought process and still don't know who is the father of their babies

I can understand its hard for guys to find women who have not slept with more then 2-3 guys in western societies but you know what can you say .. that is how it is ...

I wonder how many guys would want to marry women who has slept with 130 partners or someone who is loyal and is faithful ....lol

Progressive and ... modern my ... lol

 

[Kompromat]

I just have a few thing to note:

Lets get those things straight.

Islam like many religions of this world is a very old religion.

Islam = All Abrahamic religions and today's Islam is the Final form so yes very old.

The values that were cast in the system were quite valid during that time and for some centuries to come. Are they valid now? And if not, they are those laws flexible?

Absolutely , 100% valid and flexible for Muslims but others have problems which they always had.

It does not make our values outdated.

Today niqab seems more of a abberation from our progressive mindset. Rather wearing a Niqab so that others cant see you will be demeaning to my self-esteem in terms that the Niqab wearing person thinks that I am some kind of jerk whos gonna molest her.

That is your thinking which has got nothing to do with the issue.

I wonder how many women will agree to the purpose of Niqab or if in today's society its playing any role.

Get one thing in your mind , Hijab is a "Religious" obligation for men and women both in Islam .

Men are required to cover their whole body and women are required to cover face as well unless they are with their "mehram" ie: Husband , Brother , Father , Uncle , Mother , women (Female universities)

You can ask this Rafale girl who is from Saudi arbia if she does wear hijab willingly or she is being forced to do so ?

Regards:

 

[Rafale Girl]

Incorrect! Female Abortions in India are the highest in the world, also women abuse in India is the highest! You Hindus should worry about your own intolerance, before pointing a broken finger at us, you hypocrite!

The Niqab is not so that a man can grab or take a woman. That is not the reason why women wear it! Your entire post is ridiculous and false!

Sorry, but we Muslims are a civilized and progressive people! We value female modesty, and the Niqab is a symbol of female modesty and submission to the Almighty!

The Niqab is an Islamic tradition, and it frees women and gives them rights!

It is an act of enlightenment, which moves people away from the Jahilliyah (ignorance) of your kind of societies!

Islam is the most tolerant religion, and unlike Hinduism, which is based off of women abuse, sati, the caste system, violence, intolerence, and persecution. Islam will always be a religion of love, peace, tolerance, and progression!

well said SIR

R G.

 

[DeathGod]

1.Religion is not fashion statement - you either follow it or you don't there is no "middle ground secular" what is preached - either follow a faith or you do what you want

2.I wonder how many guys would want to marry women who has slept with 130 partners or someone who is loyal and is faithful ....lol

1. Well my question is: I say that I wont wear a hijab or do namaz though I beleive in Allah and that is why I am still a muslim. Does this argument hold?

2. Whats more demeaning is the way you talk about women. Maybe for you a women is just meant to fulfill your sexual desires and hence you stress the point so much. Btw if you have the right to sleep with your 4 wives then why doesnt the wife have the right to sleep with 5 other men. The whole purpose is equality. One cant be hypocritical in these respects. Adultery is adultery weather one does it with 1 or 130. Doesnt matter.