Nice way to evade/counter a BVR missile

[Najam Khan]

Glad to see Einstein is not dead

 

[SQ8]

Next up.. point defense lasers!!.. although Im actually quite fond of the idea of point defense lasers.. after all.. the THEL is taking out mortars already.
But how do you generate all that power from a 40000 pound combat aircraft?? Fusion reactor perhaps..

The thread starter's idea.. is to have a bullet.. hit another bullet.. whilst moving and wearing a blindfold.
The decoy systems on aircraft are catered more towards SAM's.
There was this supplement in AFM a few years back on the EF.. and it had a fairly good explanation on why you cant use the towed decoy with an air to air missile.. cant recall what it was though.

 

[Zabaniyah]

Check the air force general in Command & Conquer Generals - Zero Hour. I am sure you'll get the idea as far as mitigating missiles go

 

[VCheng]

....................
There was this supplement in AFM a few years back on the EF.. and it had a fairly good explanation on why you cant use the towed decoy with an air to air missile.. cant recall what it was though.

Simple: The AAM can approach from any angle, not just the rear.

 

[SQ8]

Simple: The AAM can approach from any angle, not just the rear.

I dont think that was it.. although it did have to do with the lower hemisphere.

 

[Imran Khan]

Glad to see Einstein is not dead

sir you should say nice to see Einstein back on earth

 

[Chogy]

The only way a plain towed decoy would work would be if the decoy was MUCH larger in RCS than the airplane. That's easier said than done. But if you add electronics to the decoy, then yes, I can see that.

People still think missiles chase airplanes around the sky. It absolutely does not work that way. A missile's algorithm predicts where the target will be at intercept, finds that imaginary point in the sky, and flies to it. If, along the way, the target alters course, a new intercept point is computed. This update is fast and continuous.

Let's say the target is a mile ahead of you, and enters a break turn. You fire a missile. The missile will immediately cut across the circle. It looks like it's not going to work, but like magic, the missile meets the airplane on the turn circle way off to one side or the other.

The only realistic defenses are electronic, thermal (flares), chaff, and a towed decoy.

Armor is too heavy. A system like Trophy, also too heavy, and too complicated. The best defense is stealth, and to kill him before he kills you.

Oh yes, the graphic that has the Su defeating the Hornet using an IRST launch is pure fantasy. AMRAAM hugely outranges IRST, and IRST fails in clouds or dust.

 

[VCheng]

The only way a plain towed decoy would work would be if the decoy was MUCH larger in RCS than the airplane. ..................

No just the size of the RCS. It is possible to add smart differentiation of RCS against the adversary expected.

 

[Chogy]

No just the size of the RCS. It is possible to add smart differentiation of RCS against the adversary expected.

A good interceptor can "break out" both targets. If I see a lead-trail formation with a spacing of 1,000 meters, I'm going to lock the leader up every time. Reason - If it's two aircraft, the guy in the lead is (98% of the time) the leader of the flight, and the trailer is a wingman. I want to kill lead. If lead beams or drags, I'm going to break lock and see what the trailer is doing. If he's latched on to lead, he's either an unmanned decoy, or he's following lead. In either case, he's no threat.

If the decoy's return is magnitudes greater than the jet, then this can give the radar trouble in breaking out two targets. The radar rejects the real fighter's return as noise, and shows one target... the decoy. Any missiles launched hit the decoy.

This is all standard search-sort-shoot methodology that has been practiced for decades. Also, real jets have a signature that a plain decoy might not be able to emulate... such as the harmonics from the compressor blades. With advanced digital processing these days, I suspect that a search radar will be able to differentiate. That is why I think a decoy must be smart and have it's own EW system which can augment or spoof.

Oh yes, a decoy can be destroyed, so it's good for one shot. If the decoy gets creamed, then the jet itself becomes vulnerable.

 

[Jango]

The only way a plain towed decoy would work would be if the decoy was MUCH larger in RCS than the airplane. That's easier said than done. But if you add electronics to the decoy, then yes, I can see that.

People still think missiles chase airplanes around the sky. It absolutely does not work that way. A missile's algorithm predicts where the target will be at intercept, finds that imaginary point in the sky, and flies to it. If, along the way, the target alters course, a new intercept point is computed. This update is fast and continuous.

Let's say the target is a mile ahead of you, and enters a break turn. You fire a missile. The missile will immediately cut across the circle. It looks like it's not going to work, but like magic, the missile meets the airplane on the turn circle way off to one side or the other.

The only realistic defenses are electronic, thermal (flares), chaff, and a towed decoy.

Armor is too heavy. A system like Trophy, also too heavy, and too complicated. The best defense is stealth, and to kill him before he kills you.

Oh yes, the graphic that has the Su defeating the Hornet using an IRST launch is pure fantasy. AMRAAM hugely outranges IRST, and IRST fails in clouds or dust.

Exactly. The missile breaks up the vectors to that point into it's components and then makes an arc based upon those vectors, choosing the shortest distance to the target. Hence intersecting the target at the first moment possible.

 

[VCheng]

........... With advanced digital processing these days, I suspect that a search radar will be able to differentiate. That is why I think a decoy must be smart and have it's own EW system which can augment or spoof.

...................

Exactly.

 

[Jungibaaz]

Sir, I appreciate the innovative idea, but modern BVRAAM can travel mach 4-5.
much faster then a bullet, hitting a target moving that fast, lining up a shot when your target s at that speed, chances of success are slim at best, another problem is after a successful hit, you will see you plane fly though fireball, not ideal.

 

[laiqs@mi]

The only way a plain towed decoy would work would be if the decoy was MUCH larger in RCS than the airplane. That's easier said than done. But if you add electronics to the decoy, then yes, I can see that.

People still think missiles chase airplanes around the sky. It absolutely does not work that way. A missile's algorithm predicts where the target will be at intercept, finds that imaginary point in the sky, and flies to it. If, along the way, the target alters course, a new intercept point is computed. This update is fast and continuous.

Let's say the target is a mile ahead of you, and enters a break turn. You fire a missile. The missile will immediately cut across the circle. It looks like it's not going to work, but like magic, the missile meets the airplane on the turn circle way off to one side or the other.

The only realistic defenses are electronic, thermal (flares), chaff, and a towed decoy.

Armor is too heavy. A system like Trophy, also too heavy, and too complicated. The best defense is stealth, and to kill him before he kills you.

Oh yes, the graphic that has the Su defeating the Hornet using an IRST launch is pure fantasy. AMRAAM hugely outranges IRST, and IRST fails in clouds or dust.

Thank you for the post.
i used to think it that way now got it right.

 

[VCheng]

Sir, I appreciate the innovative idea, but modern BVRAAM can travel mach 4-5.
much faster then a bullet, hitting a target moving that fast, lining up a shot when your target s at that speed, chances of success are slim at best, another problem is after a successful hit, you will see you plane fly though fireball, not ideal.

No matter what the speed of the missile, it is possible to shoot it down, it is just that one would need LOTS of bullets, a.k.a the Phalanx system.

 

[yesboss]

@yousaf goebbels

I think you were getting bored and just wanted to have some fun time.