New Player in the Stealth Game? Turkey Unveils Indigenous TF-X Fifth Generation Fighter

[BordoEnes]

Given the parameters for what THK would want in a fighter, this is an extremely ambitious and agressive timetable.

Thats a very fair assumption to make, although i am pretty sure he is talking about the Hurjet here, which we are aiming to have atleast one prototype build by 2023. This is kinda realistic with a foreign engine.

There is no way in hell we will see a fully flyable TFX aircraft in the next decade at least.

Well I didn't know it would be presented during the Paris air show,looking forward to see it this saturday.

It probably got outshadowed by the French/German future fighter jet project, which in its own right is extremely ambitious and noteworthy announcement. Looking forward to more Pan-European project such as these.

 

[Bismarck]

Honestly, that's difficult to assume but IMO - admitted a layman's opinion - any attempt to develop a fighter with a performance goal equal or better than the F-22, Su-57 and J-20 aka the premier league without any true experience in completely indigenously developing a fighter on its own is - to rate it mildly - a difficult task, highly ambitious ... I would call it simply hubris!

I know now again these arguments will be brought forward that Turkey is not a third rate country, that it licence manufactures important parts for major aerospace products since decades ... but I can only refrain again: it is something completely different to manufacture on order or on your own especially since the major players keep there crown jewels - aka best secured secrets - on their own. That was a lesson, China had to learn the hard way during the Peace Pearl phase and India still learns - or maybe not - today. Just to pay and say we want full ToT is far from being able to develop and design alone.

Therefore - to come back to your question - my layman idea was always to develop a type similar or exactly in the class of the KF-X aka a type slightly below the F-35 to complement this maybe with more focus or air-to air.
IMO Turkey will some day deeply regret that they refused to take part in this project .... but time will tell

Anyway and it is meant in no way meant as arrogance or to bash Turkey, but simply my estimated guess on this issue.

Agree in many aspects, but you should not forget somethings. First at all, it will not be 100% indigenous. Software from France, Engine from England, Metallurgy know-how from Germany, ....from USA,....Israel....! With all that support it is not really impossible to realize that project.

 

[Constantinople]

And that alone shows IMO that it is not aimed to develop a realistic, feasible and affordable type but to make PR-stunts, nothing more. It is only on BIG and BIGGER but nothing more.

This even more in mind of the cooling down - or should I say soon close to non-existent - Turkish/US-relationship, which in the end will kill that promising project. No engine means no TFX and alone now without RR and soon without GE it is nothing but a fancy project. Too big and too ambitious.

Sorry guys but I agree with him

 

[Islamic faith&Secularism]

Sorry guys but I agree with him

Will you please elaborate in what you agree with, so we can have some factual/technical arguments to spare time rather than emotional observation and assumption for troll/baiting?

 

[Deino]

Will you please elaborate in what you agree with, so we can have some factual/technical arguments to spare time rather than emotional observation and assumption for troll/baiting?

Honestly, why is each and every critical post in regard to this project by some always directly rated as an "emotional observation and assumption for troll/baiting"??

I in fact would wish to get "some factual/technical arguments" why the world should take this project - as the title alone suggest - as a realistic "New Player in the Stealth Game"?

I know once again these arguments will be brought forward it will, we should or must and eventually since we already ... and in the end the bottom line is since we manufacture since decades for others, since we assemble in licence and so on.

These two point are however my strongest arguments: So far Turkey - and again this is not meant as disrespect but as a fact - only manufacture and assemble based of foreign knowledge, there is so far no - not a single one - project completed, be it a transport, an engine or fighter and now you immediately want to built something other far more experienced countries never or barely archived? And most of all the to acquire technology is vastly dependent on the political will of these countries ... which given the latest examples and gestures given by senior political leaders of Turkey do not give great hope.

Again I'm sorry, but so far I miss any real argument how Turkey would like to achieve these goals in such a brief time ... IMO impossible.

 

[Islamic faith&Secularism]

Honestly, why is each and every critical post in regard to this project by some always directly rated as an "emotional observation and assumption for troll/baiting"??

I in fact would wish to get "some factual/technical arguments" why the world should take this project - as the title alone suggest - as a realistic "New Player in the Stealth Game"?

I know once again these arguments will be brought forward it will, we should or must and eventually since we already ... and in the end the bottom line is since we manufacture since decades for others, since we assemble in licence and so on.

These two point are however my strongest arguments: So far Turkey - and again this is not meant as disrespect but as a fact - only manufacture and assemble based of foreign knowledge, there is so far no - not a single one - project completed, be it a transport, an engine or fighter and now you immediately want to built something other far more experienced countries never or barely archived? And most of all the to acquire technology is vastly dependent on the political will of these countries ... which given the latest examples and gestures given by senior political leaders of Turkey do not give great hope.

Again I'm sorry, but so far I miss any real argument how Turkey would like to achieve these goals in such a brief time ... IMO impossible.

That is a nice example for my point: No factual/technical argument but emotional observation and assumption for troll/baiting as in your previous posts in TF-X thread.

No time to spare for trolls and their baitings; maybe some other sections and members feed you.

I am out.

 

[Deino]

Agree in many aspects, but you should not forget somethings. First at all, it will not be 100% indigenous. Software from France, Engine from England, Metallurgy know-how from Germany, ....from USA,....Israel....! With all that support it is not really impossible to realize that project.

Indeed ... but it is dependent on the political climate and if You look how Mr. Erdogan currently acts I'm not entirely sure if - as we say in Germany - an "elephant in the china shop" many of these countries are willing to sell their crown-jewels?!

That is a nice example for my point: No factual/technical argument but emotional observation and assumption for troll/baiting as in your previous posts in TF-X thread.

No time to spare for trolls and their baitings; maybe some other sections and members feed you.

I am out.

Since you are the one with no arguments, not even a minor one it is a good move I can only welcome. Just leave the discussion to those who can and are willing to argue.

 

[Arulmozhi Varman]

I think the design is very much ambitious and if they proceed to build it might create a lots of issues. Even with foreign components, integrating and testing an fighter is not an easy joke. Even for a 4th gen aircraft, after developing the initial aircrafts, engineers were caught up with different problems. Different methodologies for testing the platform and components in different environments. Developing test solutions for aviation took considerable time as well.

Even for AMCA when the first design was unveiled in 2009, it went through 3-4 iterations and now it looks completely different than what it looked the first time it was unveiled. Its a process. But the timeline of 2023 is aggressive, unrealistic.

I can just wish Best of Luck to Turkey.

 

[cabatli_53]

TFX program will pass into critical design review & prototype production period in following years. It is in the end of PDR now. At present, More than 1000 engineers (100 BAE) is working on PDR phase. TAI purchased Dassault Aviations’ licenced software to use on design activities of TfX. This software eases the load of engineers. A super computer which has 10,000 core is being used on modelling the platform. Wind tunnel of BAE is used for design optimization. In critical design phase, Some chances may be applied but I do not expect anything very serious. With installation of embeded sensors, optics, antennas, The design of TF-X will seem more agressive and deadly in CDR. An big fuselage (21m) and powerful engines providing supercruise capability to platform is the clear indication for big and ambitious idea to develop multi-purpose aircraft platform which is going to house vast of different mission payload. Single platform for all missions.

 

[Oublious]

Our universities and private sector are sleeping, how hard can it be to design a supercomputer? You don't need the fastest, i hope someone will think about it.

 

[PakSword]

Agreed man.

Look at this... Would you look at this.??

Both have wings...
Both have cockpits....
Both have tails and stabilisers...
Both have twin engines and air intakes...

Yeah mean both look alike ...

Yeah.... not really.
View attachment 565781

I think it was looking like F-22 from the front, but the side view is quite different.

 

[Bubblegum Crisis]

TFX program will pass into critical design review & prototype production period in following years. It is in the end of PDR now. At present, More than 1000 engineers (100 BAE) is working on PDR phase. TAI purchased Dassault Aviations’ licenced software to use on design activities of TfX. This software eases the load of engineers. A super computer which has 10,000 core is being used on modelling the platform. Wind tunnel of BAE is used for design optimization. In critical design phase, Some chances may be applied but I do not expect anything very serious. With installation of embeded sensors, optics, antennas, The design of TF-X will seem more agressive and deadly in CDR. An big fuselage (21m) and powerful engines providing supercruise capability to platform is the clear indication for big and ambitious idea to develop multi-purpose aircraft platform which is going to house vast of different mission payload. Single platform for all missions.

View attachment 565902

The TF-X only has four enemies. Its anti-radar coating - fuselage and cockpit -, communication systems, observation and defense level (Encryption, data fusion, real-time interpretation of the battlefield, augmented reality) fifth-generation stealth. That again with great effort Aselsan can do it? Maybe...

But the biggest deadly enemies of the TF-X is without context the last, his afterburning turbofan. TUSAŞ Motor Sanayii A.Ş. (TUSAS) will get there? It's the one and only question to US$10 trillion. We will know it from 5 years ago. If TUSAS has arrived to master just at least 55%, then all dreams are allowed, if not...


...

 

[Deino]

The TF-X only has four enemies.

...

Nope ... the lack of a technical indigenous base and lack of experience, the changing political relationship (if the US/Turkish relationship gets worse, then there's no engine, just plain and simple), their own economy and most of all hubris to think Turkey would get what is missing just by $$$.

 

[rajvoSa]

Nope ... the lack of a technical indigenous base and lack of experience, the changing political relationship (if the US/Turkish relationship gets worse, then there's no engine, just plain and simple), their own economy and most of all hubris to think Turkey would get what is missing just by $$$.

forgeting one crucial thing; industrial espionage

 

[Deino]

forgeting one crucial thing; industrial espionage

You think Turkey would get the missing knowledge via industrial espionage while at the same time hoping to make business with those companies at the same time?