New pics of INS Vikramditya

[Roybot]

Why do this pictures look old to me, last I heard they started the sea trials, but this is way off.

They haven't started the sea trails yet. Mooring trials started in March 2011 and apparently this is what it looked like then.

 

[Roybot]

 

[pmukherjee]

I have heard from other forums of the Chinese intention to start building 100,000 tonne suoercarriers by 2013 and ready to be launched by 2018, which will mean they will be ready by 2020 for operations.

Now why i think this is a real possibility? It is do with intentions and capabiity .

China pretty much has all the escorts available now to provide suppport for an aircraft carrier. Expect the Varyag to be escorted by Type-052C+(at least 2 have been launched in the last year) and also the Type-093 SSN. Now while this would be a formidable battlegroup as far as Asia is concerned it would be nothing compared to a US supercarrier battlegroup. Only the Type-052C+ will come close to matching the equivalent US destroyers escorting the US carriers. Both the carrier and the Type-093SSN will be much inferior to the US equivalents.

Now China will almost certainly have follow ons to the Type-052C and the Type-093SSNs most probably around the middle of this decade. These will be much more suitable to escort any future 100,000 tonne supercarrier that China can produce as their technololy levels will be closer to that of the US equivalents.

Since China can pretty much build a supercarrier as it can easily build nuclear reactors as they would most probably use several of a newer version that they already use on their Type-093SSN, they just need the intention. China most probably will surpass the US to become the largest economy in the world by 2020(even quicker at GDP PPP), and it would feel that it either needs to or must build a Navy that could match the US's in every respect. Supercarriers would be a part of this. The world's largest economy will end up building the world's largest military eventually.

OK, I see you point. My contentions are as follows.
Escorts are not the issue here. Both China and India have very competent warships capable of escorting ACs. The problem with 100,000 ton class ACs is the size and the visibility. They are insanely expensive to build and even more expensive to operate. But their size also makes them very visible and vulnerable. There are far too many technologies associated with them that, as of now, only the US possesses. As of now, China does not have any indigenous steam turbine engines to power the Varyag. I think they have got the engines from Ukraine. A 100,000 ton carrier is a different ball game. No one in Ukraine or Russia makes steam turbs with 200,000 hp or 250,000 hp. China has never made such engines. Yes, nuclear reactors are the answer, but China does not have experience of making reactors of that size. Common sense would dictate that for starters, they go for smaller reactors and then move on to bigger ones.

But all these problems are not insurmountable, China can do it and make super carriers by 2030 if it wanted (definitely not by 2020), the main factor here is does China want to go beyond the 65,000/70,000 class now? Does she have the need? A 100.000 ton class carrier costs more than twice of what a 65,000 ton class AC costs. Does China have the same global aspirations that the US has/had? Does China need to have CBGs in the Atlantic? or the Mediterranean? or the south Pacific? Does China wish to follow on the footsteps of the US? I think not. I do not think China has any plans to make 100, 000 ton ACs in the near future. Not because they can't make them but because they do not want them..... as yet. If you think that China desires total global domination of the type exemplified by the British and the Americans, you may be surprised. I think the US is the first and the last nation to make and ply super carriers in the world's oceans. I think the era of super carriers is drawing to a close.

 

[brational]

They haven't started the sea trails yet. Mooring trials started in March 2011 and apparently this is what it looked like then.

This is a 2008 capture..

 

[UKBengali]

Dude check whether Varyag can adequately protect itself from our subs and AF bases when it comes anywhere close to Bay of Bengal .5 or 6 extra J10B's or J11s are nothing compared to the 50+ MKI's that can be housed in the Andaman AF base .

India to upgrade 2 fighter bases in Andamans - Indian Express


As for holding more or less aircraft , in naval warfare we first check whether the Carrier Battle group escort ( frigates , Destroyers , Subs --having ASW capabilities , anti ship missiles etc ) is upto the mark. An AC by itself is a sitting duck. Without serious Anti sub capability in the form of 2-3 frigates or destroyers , Our Kilo class subs armed with Klubs can render it unfit for further battle.

Why do you assume that China will send a lone Varyag into the Indian Ocean? Even with 2 Type-052C+ and 2Type-054A frigates as escorts it will be overwhlemed by the Indian Navy who will have the support of SU-30MKI based at Andman Islands like you say. Varyag is unlikley to ever venture out of the South China Sea area.

What India needs to worry about is the 100,000 tonne supercarriers that will be carrying 75+ aircraft. These will be very similar to US supercarriers in the form of an air wing comprised of fighter/bombers, AWACs aircraft and anti-submarine warfare helicopters. You can also assume that at least 2 supercarriers will be sent as a task force. These will be protected by 6-8 Type-052D Destroyers and 3-4 Type-095 SSNs. India will simply be outclassed technogically with this sort of hardware. India could probaby just contain this kind of Chinese fleet but will lose most of it's Navy in the process.

 

[Tumba]

Why do you assume that China will send a lone Varyag into the Indian Ocean? Even with 2 Type-052C+ and 2Type-054A frigates as escorts it will be overwhlemed by the Indian Navy who will have the support of SU-30MKI based at Andman Islands like you say. Varyag is unlikley to ever venture out of the South China Sea area.

What India needs to worry about is the 100,000 tonne supercarriers that will be carrying 75+ aircraft. These will be very similar to US supercarriers in the form of an air wing comprised of fighter/bombers, AWACs aircraft and anti-submarine warfare helicopters. You can also assume that at least 2 supercarriers will be sent as a task force. These will be protected by 6-8 Type-052D Destroyers and 3-4 Type-095 SSNs. India will simply be outclassed technogically with this sort of hardware. India could probaby just contain this kind of Chinese fleet but will lose most of it's Navy in the process.

haha ... 2 supercarriers will outclass ... whole Indian Navy and Airforce ... ... and when these super super chinese supercarriers will enter in Indian Waters ... and what will 1000 of brahmos will doing ... hiding in thr silos...

 

[UKBengali]

OK, I see you point. My contentions are as follows.
Escorts are not the issue here. Both China and India have very competent warships capable of escorting ACs. The problem with 100,000 ton class ACs is the size and the visibility. They are insanely expensive to build and even more expensive to operate. But their size also makes them very visible and vulnerable. There are far too many technologies associated with them that, as of now, only the US possesses. As of now, China does not have any indigenous steam turbine engines to power the Varyag. I think they have got the engines from Ukraine. A 100,000 ton carrier is a different ball game. No one in Ukraine or Russia makes steam turbs with 200,000 hp or 250,000 hp. China has never made such engines. Yes, nuclear reactors are the answer, but China does not have experience of making reactors of that size. Common sense would dictate that for starters, they go for smaller reactors and then move on to bigger ones.

But all these problems are not insurmountable, China can do it and make super carriers by 2030 if it wanted (definitely not by 2020), the main factor here is does China want to go beyond the 65,000/70,000 class now? Does she have the need? A 100.000 ton class carrier costs more than twice of what a 65,000 ton class AC costs. Does China have the same global aspirations that the US has/had? Does China need to have CBGs in the Atlantic? or the Mediterranean? or the south Pacific? Does China wish to follow on the footsteps of the US? I think not. I do not think China has any plans to make 100, 000 ton ACs in the near future. Not because they can't make them but because they do not want them..... as yet. If you think that China desires total global domination of the type exemplified by the British and the Americans, you may be surprised. I think the US is the first and the last nation to make and ply super carriers in the world's oceans. I think the era of super carriers is drawing to a close.

Respect to you as you are the only Indian who has at least tried to have a debate and not made any personal attacks to hide the fact that their arguments were weak or they had none in the first place.

Ok. maybe the 100,000 tonne carriers will not come by 2020(could be till 2025) but I think it is highly unlikely that China will wait till 2030 to get them. Now if most Analysts are right China is likely to have an GDP(when measured at PPP) that is 2-2.5 times the size of the US by 2030. They will(just as a matter of symbolic national pride) produce supercarriers before then.

I disagree that China has no need to confront the US Navy in the Indian Ocean. China will be heavily reliant on oil from the Middle East for decades to come. Even though China is making alternative arrangements through Gwadar and also a future oil/gas pipeline through Pakistan to deliver energy to China, there will always be a need for the Chinese to have sufficient Naval strength to confront the US if it tries to play funny. A superpower economy can only be safeguarded by a superpower military. China is not like the former Soviet Union that was fortunate enough to have enough natural resources within it's own borders, it will have to buy resources from all over the world and will not leave it's economic prosperity in the hands of the US.

China(India also) is not a hegemonic power like the US is and it will only use it's future massive military to stop other powers(US) from bullying it. It is unlikely to go around invading other countries for oil and other selfish interests. Any Navy it builds will be to safeguard China's territory and trade routes, nothing more.

 

[UKBengali]

haha ... 2 supercarriers will outclass ... whole Indian Navy and Airforce ... ... and when these super super chinese supercarriers will enter in Indian Waters ... and what will 1000 of brahmos will doing ... hiding in thr silos...

No, they and the escorts that will come with them(6-8 Type 052D Destroyers and 3-4 Type-095 SSNs) wil be comparable to the Indian Navy and likely supporting aircraft at Andaman and Nicobar Islands combined. Nowhere did I say anything about the whole of the Indian airforce as well. Please try and debate what I have actually said rather than exagerate my comments as then it comes across as though you are trolling and not really interested in any productive debate.

 

[Tumba]

No, they and the escorts that will come with them(6-8 Type 052D Destroyers and 3-4 Type-095 SSNs) wil be comparable to the Indian Navy and likely supporting aircraft at Andaman and Nicobar Islands combined. Nowhere did I say anything about the whole of the Indian airforce as well. Please try and debate what I have actually said rather than exagerate my comments as then it comes across as though you are trolling and not really interested in any productive debate.

so will Indian Airforce wont be playing its part ... .. These CBGs will be butchered by Brahmos and coming version of Hypersonic Brahmos... no known tested defences exists even in US navy to stop a salvo of Brahmos... and if chinese have any plan it will take them at least 2 decades to come up any kind of fleet you are saying ... in 2 decades ... Indian economy be b almost equal or already have overtaken US.. so it will give us resources to put up similar kind of fleet ... so thr's no way ... chinese navy of current times or coming in future can challenge Indian might close to indian sphere of influence ... stop having wet dreams of a India China conflict ... bangladesh wont be benefited by that ... only will become a victim of India China conflict if that ever happens .. India China knows the cost if they ever go to a full fledged war ... i dont see that happening in my lifetime ... 3 billion people means lots of sane minds and peaceful ppl... it wont happen bangladeshi .. stop having fantasies of that also,,, it wont make you any richer or stronger.

 

[UKBengali]

so will Indian Airforce wont be playing its part ... .. These CBGs will be butchered by Brahmos and coming version of Hypersonic Brahmos... no known tested defences exists even in US navy to stop a salvo of Brahmos... and if chinese have any plan it will take them at least 2 decades to come up any kind of fleet you are saying ... in 2 decades ... Indian economy be b almost equal or already have overtaken US.. so it will give us resources to put up similar kind of fleet ... so thr's no way ... chinese navy of current times or coming in future can challenge Indian might close to indian sphere of influence ... stop having wet dreams of a India China conflict ... bangladesh wont be benefited by that ... only will become a victim of India China conflict if that ever happens .. India China knows the cost if they ever go to a full fledged war ... i dont see that happening in my lifetime ... 3 billion people means lots of sane minds and peaceful ppl... it wont happen bangladeshi .. stop having fantasies of that also,,, it wont make you any richer or stronger.

I am only replying to the comment that you made that is highlighted in bold.

I will say this once, so please listen carefully: "I have no interest in a India/China conflict at all".

It will hurt the whole of Asia and could possibly allow the US to retain it's malign hegemony till the day I die.

 

[pmukherjee]

Respect to you as you are the only Indian who has at least tried to have a debate and not made any personal attacks to hide the fact that their arguments were weak or they had none in the first place.

Ok. maybe the 100,000 tonne carriers will not come by 2020(could be till 2025) but I think it is highly unlikely that China will wait till 2030 to get them. Now if most Analysts are right China is likely to have an GDP(when measured at PPP) that is 2-2.5 times the size of the US by 2030. They will(just as a matter of symbolic national pride) produce supercarriers before then.

I disagree that China has no need to confront the US Navy in the Indian Ocean. China will be heavily reliant on oil from the Middle East for decades to come. Even though China is making alternative arrangements through Gwadar and also a future oil/gas pipeline through Pakistan to deliver energy to China, there will always be a need for the Chinese to have sufficient Naval strength to confront the US if it tries to play funny. A superpower economy can only be safeguarded by a superpower military. China is not like the former Soviet Union that was fortunate enough to have enough natural resources within it's own borders, it will have to buy resources from all over the world and will not leave it's economic prosperity in the hands of the US.

China(India also) is not a hegemonic power like the US is and it will only use it's future massive military to stop other powers(US) from bullying it. It is unlikely to go around invading other countries for oil and other selfish interests. Any Navy it builds will be to safeguard China's territory and trade routes, nothing more.

Good post.
I remember that we were offered the retired USS Kitty hawk a couple of years back. The Americans offered to completely refurbish her. Would have had a life time till at least 2050. The decision here was thanks but no thanks. Not that we could not have afforded the Kitty Hawk. But we felt that we did not need her. A super carrier in the ocean is like a tank on the battle field, it acts like a magnet, it draws fire. The Americans could pull it off because of the overwhelming technological superiority it has in all areas including space based surveillance which is essential for the detection, accurately locating and subsequent targeting of a super carrier. But the lead the US has is fast eroding. That is why I feel that super carriers are doomed for extinction.

China can very well look after its interests in the Indian Ocean with 2/3 carriers of 65,000/70,000 tons. But to do that, China has to first have at least 3/4 ACs operational in the East and South China Seas which are its priority area. How long will it be before China possess 5/7 operational ACs? I leave it to you. I also do not feel that China will be threatened by the US in the Indian Ocean as long as she does not threaten US interests there. Neither will China ever be challenged by India unless India feels threatened. A friendly visit by a Chinese CBG to Chittagong or Hambantota is of little consequence. A Diego Garcia kind of a situation at these places where Chinese warships are based will be a different matter altogether. I do not think that the Chinese are planning to do that, however the present modernisation in the IN is to make sure that this kind of situation does not arise. Regards.

 

[brational]

Respect to you as you are the only Indian who has at least tried to have a debate and not made any personal attacks to hide the fact that their arguments were weak or they had none in the first place.

Ok. maybe the 100,000 tonne carriers will not come by 2020(could be till 2025) but I think it is highly unlikely that China will wait till 2030 to get them. Now if most Analysts are right China is likely to have an GDP(when measured at PPP) that is 2-2.5 times the size of the US by 2030. They will(just as a matter of symbolic national pride) produce supercarriers before then.

I disagree that China has no need to confront the US Navy in the Indian Ocean. China will be heavily reliant on oil from the Middle East for decades to come. Even though China is making alternative arrangements through Gwadar and also a future oil/gas pipeline through Pakistan to deliver energy to China, there will always be a need for the Chinese to have sufficient Naval strength to confront the US if it tries to play funny. A superpower economy can only be safeguarded by a superpower military. China is not like the former Soviet Union that was fortunate enough to have enough natural resources within it's own borders, it will have to buy resources from all over the world and will not leave it's economic prosperity in the hands of the US.

China(India also) is not a hegemonic power like the US is and it will only use it's future massive military to stop other powers(US) from bullying it. It is unlikely to go around invading other countries for oil and other selfish interests. Any Navy it builds will be to safeguard China's territory and trade routes, nothing more.

Super Carriers are not meant to secure sea routes.. If China is really concerned abt it, she should try to maintain a coordial relationship with other countries including the US. As for Middle-east trade route, if the relations are good enough, Indian Navy alone can provide that security to China. In the contrary, India will not allow any foreign ACs to enter in this area without her consent, be it a super carrier or anything else. Its better for China to stop her expansion policy and come into an agreement with US, Japan, Philipines, Vietnam, S. Korea, India and Indonesia, which I beleive, more practical than building and operating Super Carriers and project her power to smaller countries.

BTW, Who gave you the idea that by 2030, China will surpass US economy by 2-2.5 times? It is By 2050 China may surpass the US economy thats too marginally, if US sits idle and does nothing to save her crown. So, Everything is not as fancy as we imagine.. China needs markets to expand its economy. I think the above countries are not that fool to do business with China under threats.. Just think about it..

 

[UKBengali]

Good post.
I remember that we were offered the retired USS Kitty hawk a couple of years back. The Americans offered to completely refurbish her. Would have had a life time till at least 2050. The decision here was thanks but no thanks. Not that we could not have afforded the Kitty Hawk. But we felt that we did not need her. A super carrier in the ocean is like a tank on the battle field, it acts like a magnet, it draws fire. The Americans could pull it off because of the overwhelming technological superiority it has in all areas including space based surveillance which is essential for the detection, accurately locating and subsequent targeting of a super carrier. But the lead the US has is fast eroding. That is why I feel that super carriers are doomed for extinction.

China can very well look after its interests in the Indian Ocean with 2/3 carriers of 65,000/70,000 tons. But to do that, China has to first have at least 3/4 ACs operational in the East and South China Seas which are its priority area. How long will it be before China possess 5/7 operational ACs? I leave it to you. I also do not feel that China will be threatened by the US in the Indian Ocean as long as she does not threaten US interests there. Neither will China ever be challenged by India unless India feels threatened. A friendly visit by a Chinese CBG to Chittagong or Hambantota is of little consequence. A Diego Garcia kind of a situation at these places where Chinese warships are based will be a different matter altogether. I do not think that the Chinese are planning to do that, however the present modernisation in the IN is to make sure that this kind of situation does not arise. Regards.

This is the issue. The US will not want to share the top spot with anyone else in this world, be it China or India. It's culture relies on being "top-dog" and only co-operates with countries as long as they take a subordinate position to themselves - remember it did not get along too well with the Soviet Union. No country can afford to take the risk of the US blocking it's trade routes for one reason or another

Well we shall have to wait and see what happens as far as these supercarrires are concerned. I still feel that as long as the US has them, then China will want them and then India as well into the future. The US certainly does not think that supercarriers are becoming extinct as they are now building the "Gerald-Ford" class that they expect to have around for decades to come but who knows they may end up spending tens of billions of dollars on useless weapons a decade or two from now,


@bartional: "BTW, Who gave you the idea that by 2030, China will surpass US economy by 2-2.5 times?"

This is at PPP(Puchasing Power Parity). It's nominal is expected to be around 1.5 times as large. China will still have the advantage of lower costs and so will be able to build and maintain comparable equipment at lower cost than US even by 2030.

 

[brational]

This is at PPP(Puchasing Power Parity). It's nominal is expected to be around 1.5 times as large.

Ascertaining a GDP in PPP has too many flaws. Yes I am agreeing with the fact that China (Currency Manipulation) is a low cost economy, but at the same time when everything is compared in absolute terms like, number of ACs the US hv and China need to build same numbers then China also need to show the same smartness in achieving the GDP in absolute terms.. Meanwhile, Indian low cost mechanism is far better than China in terms of Quality.. So by 2030, it will surpass the US economy in terms of PPP if the YoY growth rate is 8.5% and at the same time Indian per capita income will remain less than qtr of US.. So this is BS.. China can become the driver of the economy in future only if it changes its expansion policy and stop bullying small countries like Vietnam, Philipines etc and grab their lands.

Again - in Nominal terms, China may cross US not before 2050.. So we sould start focusing on our own economy and hv a better life..

 

[DacterSaab]

@daterSaab - "4) How many aircraft cariiers in the world can carry/operate 150+ aircraft?"

A little bit of thinking would have made anyone realise that 150 aircraft would have been spread between the 2 aircraft carriers.

If Indians cannot come up with anything better than the arguments that I have been seeing, then I will no longer bother replying. Most here want to argue for the sake of arguing.

it seems u only see what u want to see
ok 1 of my questions was wrong what about the other 3 ?
can't read them?
need reading lessons now brother?