New Deal - 10 policy decisions for Pakistan
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Okay fw things here. The subject matter and I say this without sounding elitest is beyond the grasp of majority of the members here. Fundamental policies are decide the fate of nations are never products of the labour of the common man. A few set and decide the track societies proceed on. Mao Tse Tung, Lenin, Kemal Ataturk, Charles De Gaule etc.
Going back to the subject in hand one thing is clear. The social/political order that exists in Pakistan has failed. Not total failure but failure nontheless. It is interesting to look at why Pakistan is not total failure - that it is partial failure. The reason is some aspects of it function. Which aspects? Well most members on PDF would place the military as one of the few functioning institutions and thereby enabling Pakistan to function. I think most here would agree with this contention.
So we must now look at why the military functions in a society that excels at failure. One thing obvious about the military is although it might carry the tag 'Pakistan' it's existance is entirely exogenous. To put it bluntly the British laid the seeds of the Pakistan Army back in 1880s when they began to recruit heavily from districts in upper Punjab and the neighbouring districts in NWFP.
The two ethnic groups that recieved preferance were Punjabi (green) and Pashtuns (turquoise) and over time the regiments that were raised from these districts built up strong traditions, like Frontier Force Regiment, Baluchi Regiment. Something like 40% of the British Indian Army was recruited from this tiny part of the British Empire underlying British preferance for these ethnic groups.
The point here is not qualify why British showed preferance (that falls within the martial race theory) which is subject for another time but that this was done by British and it had profound effect on those districts show above. The effect of this was in 1947 Pakistan inheritated all regiments raised from the area shown above in the map as it came within the geography of Pakistan.
The point here I am to trying to draw is that Pakistan Army is product of exogenous forces and traditions supplanted by British in these lands back in 1880s which over time took root. There is precious little in the DNA of Pakistan Army that is 'dhesi' ( a term that I would equate to as native or local) or endogenous to Pakistan and it's culture. The entire Pakistan Army bar a few tweaking here and there is product of a Western culture. In short there is everything Western about it and nothing really 'dhesi' about it. The continous disparaging of everything Western is overlooked when needed. This dichotomy is ignored by the vast number of Pakistani's who have perfected the art hypocracy.
They will decry as 'Western' but then entirely overlook at that few of the things that function in Pakistan are not 'dhesi' or endogenous but are from the West. Indeed most of Pakistan state appraratus is inheritated from Britain without that the country would fall apart including for example the entire corpus of state. I suggested using Roman which is derived from Greek. Strange as it may seem but Greek/Roman is more 'dhesi' then Arabic characters as Taxila has coins dating from 2000 years ago which show Greek characters being used in everyday transactions like on coins etc. Yet my suggestion about Roman recieved a tirade of objection mostly based on the dubious grounds that it will disconnect Pakistan from Islam. They ignore that this literate disconnection already exists in the 99% of Pakistan do not understand or speak Arabic therefore having the Na'staliq characters makes no differance. They also ignore that their so called brothers - Turks, many of whom are members here seem to be doing well and have not lost Islam just because they use Roman.
Going back to what I a was saying I could argue with some substance that everything that makes the Pakistan state function is product of West or specifically Britain and therefore exogenous. On the contrary everything that is holding Pakistan back is endogenous. This is incontrovertible fact. I must state here that this is not specfic to Pakistan but is a problem that most countries faced that are or were undeveloped including China.
Undeveloped is not so much as physical. It is undeveloped culture that leads to being undeveloped. The latter is merely symptom of malaise within society. So we need to look at societies that have progressed to see how they changed their undeveloped cultures. The Chinese are one example. Modern China s nothing like it was 100 years ago. The revolution of 1947 brought about a revolution which entailed of throwing out of the old order, In facr society was torn down and then rebuilt brick by brick laying the seeds of modern China. everything changed. Culture, mode of dress, female emancipation, social order, social relationships, everything from the past was destroyed and then a socialist frame that had been designed in the West was brought in. One can see how 1970s China resembled Soviet Union in so many ways. The uniforms, the statues, the huge public squares, monumental public architecture to show power of the state. The old order was destroyed and today we have a China marching forward on new legs that were built post revolution China. Nothing from the old order that militated against progress and modernism was allowed to stand in the way. Such social re-engineering has also been seen in Turkey and the post Kemalist reforms which helped to laying the foundations of modern Turkey.
In Pakistan we have the old order intact. The same order that made the ancestors of Pakistan in 1700s, 1800s, 1900s backward and easy prey to fall under British coloinal slavery still subsist. Instead of making people think that this culture was the cause of us becoming slaves in Pakistan there is strong belief on injecting even more doses of this failed culture. The only reason Pakistan is not aprimitive nation like it's ancestors of 1800s is the few transplanted vehicles of modernity that the British bought. Without that Pakistan would be another primitive state.
So where do we go from here. I do not thnk Pakistan has the profile for a Ataturk to come along. For a start times have changed and it is not so easy to do what could be even done as late a 1950s. So revolution is out. The only way forward is external pressure. For most of the last 50 years Pakistan has not charted the waters but has been shaped by external events. for example Saudi oil largesse and American Afghan Jihad shaped Pakistani's Islamism. Therefore in the same way we can hope that the Chinese pressure will cause a change in the opposite direction.
Somebody asked here the valid question that why if Us could not change Pakistan then how do we expect China to do it. My reply is US did change Pakistan. American interests in the Cold War was to cultivate right wing religious groups as counterweight to the left. We can see that the left was quite strong in 1950s but by 1980s was wiped out. America co-opted right wing conservative religious forces to articulate it's foreign policy interests. Saudia Arabia and US embrace of the House of Saud is clear example of this. Yes, post 9/11 there has been policy change but you can't change something that you nurtured for 50 years.
How China I expect will reconfigure Pakistan is something I will look in my next post. In the meantime I would appreciate if more Chinese members could put forward their thoughts. we know for sure that China will play the dominant role in Pakistan over the next five decades. So it would be good if we could could get more input from Chinese members.
@Chinese-Dragon @Sinopakfriend
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Problem with your suggestions
1
Point 1
Than What is Stopping Pakistan From Turning LOC into IB on Kashmir , Because israel doesnt have that much of Problem For Pakistan Now , It Will Help improve Pakistani Image in Whole World , and best of All With india ,it will open the trade doors , access to indian and Chinese Market , Pakistan will have to do less Spending on Defence Budget
2
Point 2 and 3
Well You Cant religion was the main Reason Pakistan created better option just Join back India Biggest Democracy in whole world
3
Point 4 and 5 Islamic Laws are already there , Islam has already defined the importance of Cleanliness , equality , Religious Freedom Problem is People are uneducated
4
Point 6 For that you need active Personal who Could manage and Funds for that because Pakistan has population of 200 Million and 60 of that is younger generation for that you need Proper management and time give or take 2 to 3 decades of Continues work to see the start of change
5
Point 7 Yes Sell everything , Point of Privatising is that private sector will bring there own funds , and Gov will Get Discounts and Taxes , and even than State has To help Why the need to Sell , Instead Give share to private investors and work with them , Biggest Problem with Pakistani Asset isnt that assets are wrong or they dont have growth potential but problem is corruption , miss management
6
Point 8
Whats the Reason of Keeping a Conventional force at all , Why All the Nuke Capable countries are spending billions on conventional weapon systems , Because You Cant Nuke Everyone just because you didnt invest in other systems are you just dis assembled your whole army
7
Point 9 as in my Post 3 i have already have answered that secular teachings wont do anything until proper teachings are not taught ,
I have a better Suggestion Government should Keep a panel of religious scholars , You Keep a close watch on all the Schools and Religious Schools so if any one who is spreading hate and false Knowledge should be banned and punished
8
Point 10
Taking stand Against Corruption Thats the only Thing which Pakistan as a nation needs to adopt
9
Point 11
You Cant Unless You Want to Change Urdu from National language
Point 12
Well You Cant , Problem is The History you are talking about would lie in only few old cities , unless again you Keep Indian History as Your History instead of going Back 10000s years back it would better if Pakistan Starts its History from 1947 and Go onwards and Try To Show Its Healthy Modern Touch With old values ,
10
Point 13
already replied in post 7
1. Recognize State of Israel
- No, we can not do that, not until Palestine Conflict is resolve. Pakistan has no direct link with the state of Israel, no conflict, and Pakistan will not gain anything even if it's recognize Israel. Please don't compare us to Arab countries. KSA/GCC leadership don't care about Palestine.
When incompetent people running the country, only for their personal gain. They don't even know how to spell foreign policy. Currently Pakistan has zero foreign policy.
2. Pakistani government should adopt Islam as a official religion of the country and create a Religous institute that focuses on educating the public.
3. Let us first fix NAB, FBR, FIA, Election commission before jumping on something else. Once these are fix and amendments are introduce to fix the loopholes, country will back on the right track.
We also should introduce a law that prime minster and President can run his own business while he is in the office because of conflict of interest.
We can't even provide basic necessities to public.....Food, water, clothing, shelter, sanitation, education, and healthcare.
4. Hate law is passed???
- Good suggestion, but these are already laws in place but we need to strengthen the system so these can be implemented properly. I think Deobandi/Barelvis will be in big trouble since they are the one spread hatred. Killing of Shias are most likely related to political reason, foreign agencies use these groups to created religious conflict. I have to give credit to MQM, they were able to reduce Shia/Sunni conflict in Karachi.
I personally think that Pakistani government must establish a National Madrassa Board (NMB) Under the board of Education. National Madrassa board should work with The Institute of Islamic Values and Arabic-language, a Islamic research Instituted founded and control by Pakistani government, to create, authorize and implement standard Madrassa Curriculum (SMC) which should include Quranic education, Arabic language, Social studies (Pakistan History), Mathematics, Science and Computer courses. South African Islamic institutes have built a similar curriculum for their Seminaries.
The Institute of Islamic Values and Arabic-language need to be established to create a Islamic utopia and build the society based on Moderate Islamic principles. This government based institute's primary responsibility will be to education the masses about Islam which was sent by Allah (swt) and preached by Nabi Kareem (Saw). This institute will use all different mediums (TV channels, Social Media, Internet, live Lectures) to educate people about real Islam. The ultimate goal of this institute will be to control and stop the un-Islamic practices that have become the part of our religion due to lack of real knowledge about Islam. If it's done correctly, we should see significant decrease in extremism, in shirk and bidaat practices, for example, celebrating Urs, making sajda to the qabar/graves, making dua to the dead, fake peer/muridi culture. We should also see religious tolerance which means No violence against religious minorities, Shia, Hindus, Sikh, etc. This should pressure government to reform of the controversial blasphemy laws.
•Laws should be created to stop the Islamic extremism.
•Anyone inciting violence against other sects in their Speeches and Khutbas should be prosecuted.
•First offensive, 10 lashes and 3 months in Jail.
•Second offence, 25 lashes and 6 months in Jail.
•Third offence, 50 lashes and 2 years in Jail.
•Fourth offence, 100 lashes and 10 years in jail.
•Any group or individual can’t call other sect “Kafir.”
•If they call other kafir, they will have to proof that in an international Islamic court that individual or group is “Kafir”.
5. Mass public campaign to reduce population growth rate???
- Good suggestion but it won't work in Pakistan. I think government must improve the healthcare setup to reduce children mortality rate in Pakistan.
Economic penalties??? In a country where more than 75% of the population is living under $2 dollars a day.
How are you going to impose a economic penalties on people?
6. Mass education law passed??? - Great suggestion. Egypt and Israel has 2 years mandatory paramilitry training and deployment. Each male and female above 18 must serve in Army for 2 years. Pakistan can adopt similar draft system.
7. Privatization??? - Good suggestions but country is not stable and Pakistan must keep ownership of certain percentage, can't sell everything. Army is running many business and they are very profitable but our government can NOT even run PIA, Steel mill, etc.
8. Increased expenditure on nuclear deterance but reduced expendture on conventional forces???.
- This might be difficult at this time since Army is taking care of both internal and external threats.
Police and other law enforcement agencies are not working as they should. (I think patching holes, adjustment, rather then reducing. Pakistan needs to build it's marines, national guard/rangers and coast guard. I will explain this in a separate post).
9. Education that reinforces a secular thinking???
I will disagree with you. Our Education is secular and our religion teaches us about cleanliness, orderliness, respectfulness, respect for the law, civil duty.
Have you ever had a chance to read up about the Education system of Japan, South Korea and Israel?
Israeli government school "offer intensive Jewish studies programs, and emphasize tradition and observance."
IMHO, an orthodox Islamic studies programs needs to be develop to focus on Islamic traditions and observance, to reduce and eventually eliminate Jali baba, Jali peer, Shirk and bidat practices in Pakistan.
Muslims living in Western countries send their children to Sunday Islamic school which are managed by Islamic Centers. Why children Pakistan should be deprived of it.
10. There is no secret recipe. Riyasat needs to fix current systems. 1) Land reform 2) revamp Political system 3) Stop/reduce corruption 4) Revamp Judicial system 5) Decentralization of power to union council level. Once you can fix these 5 things, Pakistan will be among the 1st world countries.
11. Dumping of Arabic/ Farsi characters???
Does not make any sense? What difference does it make? What is the benefit?
Why not tell Chinese, Japanese, Korean and Malaysian to go to Roman? Why not adopt bangla or hindi?
Instead of worry about Arabic/Farsi alphabets, we should be worrying how to prevent our major cites from becoming a trash dumps. We need to invest in turning trash into energy.
12. I partially agree about Education system and introducing new curriculum for Schools.
I do have a one question for you.
Did Jihadi islam existed before 80s? Do you know how Pakistan looked in 60s and 70s. We want people to know real islam not Qawali, Jalous, jaali peer, bidat, grave worship.
We need to defeat the Jihad narrative but it won't be easy.
13. Copying the Turkish model???
- You can't just copy and paste. Turkey is a secular and educated country and Pakistan has high Religious illiteracy. We need to build a system that work for us.[/QUOTE]
Buddy Problem With Pakistan is They Imagine way to much , and Dont like to act upon , Well everything is Possible But Who it wont Just Happen in a night , Pakistan is a 60 70 years country , just a child , had already seen 3 major wars ,
Last its Part , Vicitm of Terror , Corruption , Injustice You name it Every wrong thing is happening
Pakistani Society is Corrupt to its core and they happily blame there politicans while ignoring the fact that they are from those same people and these same people support them in one or other way
For Pakistan to Change it needs education , which is happening and its really slow pace , because Majority Pakistanis are too impatient people ,
To Change and Form a community it needs time , they forget Even Pakistan wasn't created overnight it took decades ,
Same will happen give it some time
With Education , People Will Know What they are loosing , they will start standing up for them selves and for others , Which will bring the need of justice ,
When you have a Corruption free justice system it will automatically Fight against Corruption ,
and thats the way step by step
For Me Pakistan will see better days give it some decades
graphican
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@Kaptaan;
On "Recognizing state of Israel"
Israel is neither your ally neither they are your well-wishers. When it comes to Israel's support for India, you will find them doubling down and offering their livers and lungs, as if India was a second body for the same soul. They supported India against Pakistan in Kargil and are still arming it with lethal weapons. They were to attack Pakistan's nuclear installations, the only country after India who had dared such an act and they were hand-in-gloves when they planned that. Do you expect favors from India? Why don't you accept Kashmir belongs to them hoping they will quit being your enemy?
Under cultural, religious, social, economic, geopolitical, geographic, ethnic, business or whatever future landscape you could think off, you do not find a single similarity between Israel and Pakistan. So the question remains... why the bloody hell would you even think about it?
You don't have to be their enemy, but there is zero reason to be their friends. Infect, looking at their past and their current activities, you have all the right reasons to treat them as a foe.
Last edited:
Mangus Ortus Novem
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.Okay fw things here. The subject matter and I say this without sounding elitest is beyond the grasp of majority of the members here. Fundamental policies are decide the fate of nations are never products of the labour of the common man. A few set and decide the track societies proceed on. Mao Tse Tung, Lenin, Kemal Ataturk, Charles De Gaule etc.
Going back to the subject in hand one thing is clear. The social/political order that exists in Pakistan has failed. Not total failure but failure nontheless. It is interesting to look at why Pakistan is not total failure - that it is partial failure. The reason is some aspects of it function. Which aspects? Well most members on PDF would place the military as one of the few functioning institutions and thereby enabling Pakistan to function. I think most here would agree with this contention.
So we must now look at why the military functions in a society that excels at failure. One thing obvious about the military is although it might carry the tag 'Pakistan' it's existance is entirely exogenous. To put it bluntly the British laid the seeds of the Pakistan Army back in 1880s when they began to recruit heavily from districts in upper Punjab and the neighbouring districts in NWFP.
The two ethnic groups that recieved preferance were Punjabi (green) and Pashtuns (turquoise) and over time the regiments that were raised from these districts built up strong traditions, like Frontier Force Regiment, Baluchi Regiment. Something like 40% of the British Indian Army was recruited from this tiny part of the British Empire underlying British preferance for these ethnic groups.
The point here is not qualify why British showed preferance (that falls within the martial race theory) which is subject for another time but that this was done by British and it had profound effect on those districts show above. The effect of this was in 1947 Pakistan inheritated all regiments raised from the area shown above in the map as it came within the geography of Pakistan.
The point here I am to trying to draw is that Pakistan Army is product of exogenous forces and traditions supplanted by British in these lands back in 1880s which over time took root. There is precious little in the DNA of Pakistan Army that is 'dhesi' ( a term that I would equate to as native or local) or endogenous to Pakistan and it's culture. The entire Pakistan Army bar a few tweaking here and there is product of a Western culture. In short there is everything Western about it and nothing really 'dhesi' about it. The continous disparaging of everything Western is overlooked when needed. This dichotomy is ignored by the vast number of Pakistani's who have perfected the art hypocracy.
They will decry as 'Western' but then entirely overlook at that few of the things that function in Pakistan are not 'dhesi' or endogenous but are from the West. Indeed most of Pakistan state appraratus is inheritated from Britain without that the country would fall apart including for example the entire corpus of state. I suggested using Roman which is derived from Greek. Strange as it may seem but Greek/Roman is more 'dhesi' then Arabic characters as Taxila has coins dating from 2000 years ago which show Greek characters being used in everyday transactions like on coins etc. Yet my suggestion about Roman recieved a tirade of objection mostly based on the dubious grounds that it will disconnect Pakistan from Islam. They ignore that this literate disconnection already exists in the 99% of Pakistan do not understand or speak Arabic therefore having the Na'staliq characters makes no differance. They also ignore that their so called brothers - Turks, many of whom are members here seem to be doing well and have not lost Islam just because they use Roman.
Going back to what I a was saying I could argue with some substance that everything that makes the Pakistan state function is product of West or specifically Britain and therefore exogenous. On the contrary everything that is holding Pakistan back is endogenous. This is incontrovertible fact. I must state here that this is not specfic to Pakistan but is a problem that most countries faced that are or were undeveloped including China.
Undeveloped is not so much as physical. It is undeveloped culture that leads to being undeveloped. The latter is merely symptom of malaise within society. So we need to look at societies that have progressed to see how they changed their undeveloped cultures. The Chinese are one example. Modern China s nothing like it was 100 years ago. The revolution of 1947 brought about a revolution which entailed of throwing out of the old order, In facr society was torn down and then rebuilt brick by brick laying the seeds of modern China. everything changed. Culture, mode of dress, female emancipation, social order, social relationships, everything from the past was destroyed and then a socialist frame that had been designed in the West was brought in. One can see how 1970s China resembled Soviet Union in so many ways. The uniforms, the statues, the huge public squares, monumental public architecture to show power of the state. The old order was destroyed and today we have a China marching forward on new legs that were built post revolution China. Nothing from the old order that militated against progress and modernism was allowed to stand in the way. Such social re-engineering has also been seen in Turkey and the post Kemalist reforms which helped to laying the foundations of modern Turkey.
In Pakistan we have the old order intact. The same order that made the ancestors of Pakistan in 1700s, 1800s, 1900s backward and easy prey to fall under British coloinal slavery still subsist. Instead of making people think that this culture was the cause of us becoming slaves in Pakistan there is strong belief on injecting even more doses of this failed culture. The only reason Pakistan is not aprimitive nation like it's ancestors of 1800s is the few transplanted vehicles of modernity that the British bought. Without that Pakistan would be another primitive state.
So where do we go from here. I do not thnk Pakistan has the profile for a Ataturk to come along. For a start times have changed and it is not so easy to do what could be even done as late a 1950s. So revolution is out. The only way forward is external pressure. For most of the last 50 years Pakistan has not charted the waters but has been shaped by external events. for example Saudi oil largesse and American Afghan Jihad shaped Pakistani's Islamism. Therefore in the same way we can hope that the Chinese pressure will cause a change in the opposite direction.
Somebody asked here the valid question that why if Us could not change Pakistan then how do we expect China to do it. My reply is US did change Pakistan. American interests in the Cold War was to cultivate right wing religious groups as counterweight to the left. We can see that the left was quite strong in 1950s but by 1980s was wiped out. America co-opted right wing conservative religious forces to articulate it's foreign policy interests. Saudia Arabia and US embrace of the House of Saud is clear example of this. Yes, post 9/11 there has been policy change but you can't change something that you nurtured for 50 years.
How China I expect will reconfigure Pakistan is something I will look in my next post. In the meantime I would appreciate if more Chinese members could put forward their thoughts. we know for sure that China will play the dominant role in Pakistan over the next five decades. So it would be good if we could could get more input from Chinese members.
@Chinese-Dragon @Sinopakfriend
A good start.
A few observations...
If the armed forces and the upper tier functionaries of the Pak State work because of the colonial heritage... so be it.
What is critical here is to validate whether they work. If they do then it means it is possible to replicate the format. After all there are no more Britis running the show in Pak.
What I want to say is that the 'system' of Statehood works, however, pathetically..nevertheless, it does. What is important is the fact that the Pak people are able to absorb and replicate a success formula.
Oligarch/elite/feudal classes have a vested interest in continuing their 'system'. Which is logical. It has nothing to do with morality or ethics. It is pure System Dynamics. All systems seek continuity unless distruption is added. Don't we have 0.001% here in the West running the show?
So a system designer first analyses the existing system dynamics, calculates Distruption factor and introduces elements of change, Controlled Chaos and creates catalysts for Directed Evolution.
Chinese strategy in Pakistan is Directed Evolution..through economic development. An island of prosperity can not be surrounded by seas of chaos.
CPEC is not just a road. IT is the blue print of something larger. Where are the Chinese building their biggest/most expensive embassy?
I have given here the entire game plan... I am certain you will decipher it quickly.
Once again...as I pushed you earlier... the question / remedy lies in Principles Definition for Pak State. From hence springs forth policy instruments and of course Directed Evolution.
Revolutions are messy business. Not necessary in Pak. Need is to reconnect with Ancient to become the Modern.
From Simple to Complex.
From General to Specific.
Another bucket load of garbage from intellectually colonized secularists @Kaptaan . Seeing how west is turning illiberal he changed his masters from America to China. Most of these secularists tend to be immoral to the core and internalize western ideas like secularism and cliche rhetoric of "absolute national interest" . They can't differentiate and compartmentalize concepts of science , politics, society and development and lump it all together and rely on western academics on what to do next. Having a slave mentality and suffering from inferiority complex the get easily overwhelmed by the superficial pomp and grandeur of western civilization. Believing that aping the west is the only way they can get recognition from their western masters , a recognition they made their goal in life, they readily take in western ideas , philosophies and believe in western narratives without any scrutiny of those ideas and narratives. They fail to identify the gargantuan noticeable fallacies that underpin western ideas and philosophies but rather try to superimpose those ideas and narratives on the culture, history,society of islamic civilization and islamic texts , often times resorting to hermeneutical gymnastics and outright rejection islamic fundamental principles and beliefs. What's more absurd and amusing is that these intellectually colonized slaves say muslims are suffering from inferiority complex. These people are truly headless chickens bumping on each other in the dark but suggesting ideas and policies to muslim countries. 
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