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New Deal - 10 policy decisions for Pakistan

If its in our self interest to massacre people somewhere we should go ahead then?
East Bengal 1971?

For staunch secularists it is. They identify themselves with Hindu culture.
Rubbish. Depending on who they are, Pashtun, Baloch, Punjabi, Sindhi they will fall back more on those cultures. In a secular construct those sub-cultures become a composite. Unique to Pakistan as India does not have those states.

Bihar, Orrisa, Bengal, UP, Jharkand, Assam, Tamil Nadu, Kerala etc make the Indian composite which is entirely differant from the Punjabi, Pashtun, sindhi, Balochi recipe for Pakistan. Pak is therefore unique.

Pakistan ethnic/cultures

pak-biggest_group_by_region.jpg


India

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Differant mix. Differant recipe. Excluding religion. Above map shows only Sikhs of Punjab overlap with Pak Punjab. Rest are unique.
 
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Eaast Bengal 1971?

Is that the best response you could fetch?
Bangladesh massacre was mostly at the hand of the local Biharis. Nevertheless, you are just dragging the conversation to areas which are historically disputed.. Perhaps you have lost ground on your original post and now resorting to such diversions.
 
The most important point.....Pakistani state spends 60 to 70% of time, resources and energy on dealing with India, a country several times larger than Pakistan. Unless, Pakistan spends this time, resources and energy on its development there is no hope. Moreover, many of serious problem faced by Pakistan can be traced directly to its enmity with India. Preeminence of religion, extremism, dominance of military over the civilians, huge allocation of budgets to military, faltering of economy etc... etc... can be traced to Pakistan's enmity with India.

Unless Pakistan has a rational policy towards India that is non confrontational, none of the points in OP will fructify
 
Is that the best response you could fetch?
You wanted me to give you the worse response? How strange.

Perhaps you have lost ground on your original post and now resorting to such diversions.
I have not lost a millimetre - certainly not to you.

*I am secular but probably most hardline toward India then all you Islamists. Something to mull over and that runs contrary to your argument.
 
Rubbish. Depending on who they are, Pashtun, Baloch, Punjabi, Sindhi they will fall back more on those cultures.
I agree. But from the prospective of collective identity I think rabid secularists identify with Hindustan culturally.

East Bengal 1971?
Lets stick with principle shall we. "absolute self-interest" how do you define it? Do you mean economically?
 
rabid secularists
I am one but deplore India more than most.

"absolute self-interest" how do you define it? Do you mean economically?
Yes but it's more nuanced than that. I don't have time to give you a refinined definition of that. Maybe when I get time. I have to sign off now.
 
You wanted me to give you the worse response? How strange.

I have not lost a millimetre - certainly not to you.


:-) ... I invite you to come live in Pakistan for some time and understand the people here before suggesting policies for them.

cheers.
 
Chuckles. Sure. So why has India not joined the ranks of Turkey or China. When are you going to 'fructify'. And where has India spent all her energies on? tiny Pakistan?


I go every year and invest lot of money there.

We are talking about your points to make Pakistan a developed state. Anyway, yes, India spends its energies on Pakistan too, but being much larger state, it can afford to keep its enmity with Pakistan without effecting our development or economy. As on Turkey, it matter very less for India. On China, we are enemies - but not in a conventional way you think - we have never shied in improving trade with China- India has almost $100 billion trade with China.
 
Agree with two things - religion must be defined by the state. Teach Quran and Namaz at schools - ban all these jamats. All mosques nationalized with paid imams. We should not become a theocracy at all costs like the Quaid said.

Secondly, a large internal force is needed - may be like a central security force like Egypt or Turkish Jandarma with its own intelligence unit (may be you have mentioned this before). Federal security force was a good idea by bhutto but it became a tool.

But the most important aspect is defining india as a hostile state. Pakistan will remain a muslim state and so it should be but a progressive one with basic tenets of islam being professed and practiced in accordance as defined by the state. Iqbal also called for Ijtihad.

I agree. But from the prospective of collective identity I think rabid secularists identify with Hindustan culturally.

Dont quite understand this point. What is hindustan? Nothing. They are just ethnic groups. If you mean to say some people identify with todays india, they are stupid. Identifying with Indus valley civilization is not exactly associating with india or bharat.

If a Pakistani feels proud of being the heirs of Indus Valley civilization is that bad despite being muslims? Egyptians and Persians are proud of theirs despite being muslims now. Pakistan is a new country in an old land, we gave civilization to the world and now we are muslim no contradiction imo.
 
All of these suggestions are fomented in a rabid mind infected with a western secular virus. Each has it's own ditch! Let me be very clear... There is no such thing as eternal profit! All you see as enlightenment is merely a mirage created by a credit bubble mostly during last couple of centuries. There have been plateaus however mostly there were always more willing recruits to sell their future for seeming comforts now all for here and now well guess what the ball can never be passed on forever. I don't want to burst your bubble but you must start thinking deeper ... It will all start connecting once you scratch the surface. Slavery is sold these days by showing goods showcased in glass for all to see... People have come to accept aesthetics as knowledge yet this is what you are being sold. Why would you mortgage your kids for YOUR few days of luxury? Start thinking beyond nationalism it is already too old... These borders draw blood yet people on either side when given chance just want to live! One must learn and not by those with an agenda ... A teacher is not who memorizes a few books and then starts doing the same to those younger. A teacher is master of his skill he takes young ones under his wings much like apprentices and lets them free when delivering his all that person must be respected he is delivering knowledge not ones selling an agenda! You must know all science is political! And those funding these studies want a certain end result then they want to control its propagation. Current political system is sustained to maintain the status quo. It is only when you get tired of it and start looking at the details you learn of possibilities. I don't give false hope but emphasize on knowledge. Cause here each must dig himself out.
 
My friend @Sinopakfriend suggested I put forth some ideas I would like Pakistan to adopt as national policy. Here is my list.

1. Recognize State of Israel - this is a land dispute between European settlers and native Palestinian Arabs. It's all about land, plain and simple. There are Christians, Muslims on the Palestinian side. Both are as opposed to the European settlers underlining that this is not about religion. It is plain land grab. Most of the Arab countries directly involved and those who actually fought Israel have recognized that country. Others like GCC/KSA are in in bed with Isreal behind the door. We see this with the tango in Syria or the shared hatred for Iran.

So it is time Pakistan dropped this deadweight around it's neck and moved forward. No the heavens are not going to rain down with gold dust but Pakistan will find it that more easier to traverse the geo-political scene as it will be free from the burden that Pakistan presently carries. We need to leverage foreign policy on basis of absolute 'self interest'.

2. Pakistan government avoids itself in engaging wth or getting involved in religious issue or theological matters as that is a endless pit of grief and is best left in hands of the mullahs.

3. Inspired by China a 'profieering law' is passed which makes it illegal to use religion as vehicle for any type of gain. Accounts are checked and those who use religion for making money get justice fast.

4. Hate law is passed. It is serious crime for any person to discriminate, incite hatred of any group within Pakistan. all citizens are equal.

5. Mass public campaign to reduce population growth rate. Economic penalties are imposed on those having more than 3 children. Media, mullahs are used to bring societal change.

6. Mass education law passed. All citizens between 18-19 are drafted for 12 month public duty service. Building public utilities, parks, cleaning and those with good education grades drafted into 'education corp' and sent all over Pakistan to raise literacy.

7. Most public companies like PIA sold. Let private sector sort out the economy. The state only helps, encourages, lays policy and creates level playing field.

8. Increased expenditure on nuclear deterance but reduced expendture on conventional forces. Possible 30% reducation in military size. Increase in size of internal security force managed at federal level.

9. Education that reinforces a secular thinking and focus on the now, the mundane like cleanliness, orderliness, respectfulness, respect for the law, civil duty rather than spiritual trappings.

10. Increased exchange with Chinese to learn the recipe that made that country hurtle toward the sky.

11. Dumping of Arabic characters and adoption of Roman so to make reading, writing easier inthe age of computers. Roman is used by Pakistani's in sites like this and other places - why not go the full monty?

12. A entire revamping of Pakistani history books. Start at 100,000 yeares BCE with Soanian Age then move forward era by era the momentous events that have played out on the Indus valley - the foundation of Pakistan. Creating a more holistic identity based on land and tradition. Infuse pride in the land that is Pakistan. From birthplace of civilization (Harappa, Mohenjo Daro, Rehman Dheri etc) on to modern day - so as to fortify nation building and address the chronic inferiority complex that afflicts too many Pakistan who then seek refuge in jihadi Islam as identity and political vehicle leading to the fractious voilence the country faces.

13. Copying the Turkish model all religious bodies are taken over by a state 'dinyiat' that regulates and brings religion in harmony with the state.

@TaiShang @Sinopakfriend @KediKesenFare @Ottoman123 Thoughts? Others can include or exclude ideas.

I agree with all of the very rational and well elaborated points above. In fact, I would propose a more drastic secularization process given the urgency of the situation:

1. Take away all religious titles that generate class differences and discrimination based on non-quantifiable norms of religious superiority and inferiority. I am not sure which titles Pakistan society has, the state has to take away all arbitrary titles such as Mullah, Khodja, Sheikh etc. and persecute those that attempt to profit from such titles.

2. Make religion a subject of science under absolute historical positivist light. Make sure that the understanding that religiosity and spirituality are two things. Religiosity, due to its infringement on public life if allowed to run amok, should be limited to theological studies in universities and other institutions but its appearance in public space should be reduced to minimum.

3. Do not follow the Turkish model of state-sanctioned religious affairs. This could be a stage or a step, but should not be the end in itself. The end stage is an absolute non-religious state. Because, the state religion apparatus over time becomes a class. Also, state-sanctioned religion is peaceful only if the state itself is absolutely secular. But, as is seen in Turkey example now, if the state itself is becoming religious and sectarian, then the state-sanctioned religion becomes a political tool. I would propose state-regulated religious affairs rather than state-sanctioned.

Furthermore, even at the stage in which religion is sanctioned by the state, unlike in Turkey in which the official-sanctioned religion is a certain sectarian form of a certain religion, all religions must be sanctioned to ensure that the state does not take side. Otherwise, if in Pakistan the state-approved religion happens to be Islam, other religious groups and non-religious people will be discriminated and dominated.

4. Aside from dealing with religion, a very important step is woman's liberation. This should include a complete inclusion of women into every aspect of social and public life. Mandatory education up to the age of 18 must be applied to girls immediately, if not all genders. No minors under 18 years of age should be allowed to marry under any pretext, including rape by a relative or stranger. Marriage legalization must be done at secular courts by government officials, not in the mosques by religious figures. Marriage is a civil act, not a religious act. Marriages initiated by religious figures should not be accepted as legal. Child marriage must be prevented and those who marry very young girls must be persecuted harshly and the marriage must be ended. The paternalistic, woman-hating and sexual-objectifying aspect of religious culture must be destroyed at the core. Man-woman relationship must be secularized.

5. Complete, absolute dress code on man and woman until the society accepts modern, acceptable norms of dressing up in public space. Gulf or Arab-inspired dressing must be outlawed and Pakistan's own historical attires (I remember the pictures of Mrs. Bhutto's elegant attires) must be underlined and encouraged. If women are not taken out from the self-inflicted prisons called burqa or other similar attires, they will never have a personality. In public space, if something does not have personality, that thing becomes an object. Woman's subjectivity and personality can be given by recognizing them as an agent. However, burqa style dressing takes away woman's personality, or agency, and makes it impossible for human-level interaction at the public space.

6. Finally, foreign policy. Pakistan perhaps has to start from home to make things right. Its unfavorable conditions cannot be blamed on outside agencies entirely. India's secular governance (to the degree it has) can in fact be as much of an inspiration as China's. Cultural sphere and historical memory actually would make it easier for Pakistan to emulate the right aspects of India's public governance (it has wrong aspects, perhaps, just as China might have) than that of China, which stands at a rather different historico-cultural Confucius realm. In any case, peaceful, constructive and mutually enriching relations with India is a must, just as vice versa.

7. Only after domestic is secularized, foreign can be secularized, starting from, as Kaptaan points out, annulling religion as a point of reference in inter-state relations. The fact is that the rest of the world, which happens to be much stronger and absolutely dominant, does not recognize or treasure such feelings as Ummah or Khalifa. We do not take non-recognition of Israel as a noble policy. Israel, after all, is a secular state with diverse population. It is not Vatican, with which China does not have any diplomatic relations (in fact, I argue, China should not have diplomatic relations with Saudi Arabia because it is a religious entity and argues about religious universalism, which is against the norms of nation-state). China recognizes that geopolitics is a strategic and secular area. Ethno-religious instruments can be utilized within the limits of the rules of sovereignty.

8. Eventually, it has to be a Pakistani solution for Pakistan. The right aspects from outside can be taken and put into practice, but, the core of emancipation and progress has to come from Pakistan's own historical dynamics and future plans. Where do Pakistan want to be 5o years from now? Has any politician develop a vision? Close your eyes for a minute and imagine a realistic future for Pakistan? Where will it be? And where do you want it to be, idealistically? And, is it doable? Progress is a scientific process involving absolute ration and reason; it has little to do with praying, wishing, or becoming pious people - although a strong rational faith is important.

9. A certain dose historical dialectical Marxist thinking would not turn anybody into heathens. Rest assured, Marx will not be burning in Hell and we won't be, too, just because we admire his ideas and solutions. The Marxist thinking is useful to have a complete understanding of historical progress and be aware and cognizant of the agents for meaningful change. Marxism will make your historical knowledge a more solid area of reasoning by stopping fixation on unrealistic stories of giant floods or people turning into monkeys and pigs because God gets so angry at one point. When religio-historical knowledge is ruled out, having a rational understanding of and setting up pragmatic relations with Israel would be much easier. This does not mean we would have to recognize Israel's policies, say, in Syria, (which are always materially-based decisions, not religious ones), but we would have more realistic tools to deal with problems. This is better than waiting for the day in which every tree would betray the Jew hiding behind and the good religious people would go and kill them off right there conveniently.

So Marxism is not idol worshipping or turning shopping malls into pseudo-religious sites. It is actually to be aware of the material conditions of historical change and have a mental control over the material in order not let it have a control over you. With this thinking, you ("you" in general, not specific) will understand the material basis of organized religions. Then, people will not fall for the material-based corruption and radicalization of religion-based social, cultural, political and economic institutions.

In the end, organized religion is a mode and relations of production. But, it is a very unequal relations of production.

10. Of course, all comes down to education. You cannot possibly change a person of 50 years old. But you can in merely 30 years create a brand new generation that is so different from their parents in a good way. Japan transformed itself from feudal backwardness in a matter of a single generation. This could be done. It is not easy, but very painful (like China's experience) and what has been gained can be lost very easily (like in Turkey now), so you would have to be vigilant against ahistorical and anti-historical forces; but it is worth the effort. Now at least Pakistan has workable templates to learn from. In 1911 or 1949, China had very little historical precedent. Just make use of historical knowledge. And history is not always about past and there. It is also about now and here. You are the agency. Be the agent. Make history.

11. Probably I have written way too long, but, I value the points raised by @Kaptaan , so, I think it is worth the time. Nonetheless, I have already used up my daily PDF quota.
 

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