Nearly Blacklisted, Finmeccanica Could Lose BIG In India

[KRAIT]

Yes @KRAIT I knew about these helos but I don't see the relevance in this case as these AW-101s are brand new and made to order for the IAF.

Hope so. I don't trust these people. They might give a bad product even if they provide new. Faulty and cheap parts may have been used. It happened in US too.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Hope so. I don't trust these people. They might give a bad product even if they provide new. Faulty and cheap parts may have been used. It happened in US too.

It is not out of the realms of possiblity but if this is the case then there will be fincail penalties as per the contract.

 

[KRAIT]

It is not out of the realms of possiblity but if this is the case then there will be fincail penalties as per the contract.

Considering condition of Corruption, even if they give such product, and the faults are found, all they have to do is toss few millions of % to our politicians to stop the investigation or doctor it.

After all if these cases come out, it affect the credibility of the company and no country expect like ours, will compromise its national security.

There is already talks on the effect on defense companies and many jobs are hanging in the balance if the deal is cancelled/ If you remember, if Boeing wouldn't have got those deals, they were going to lay off many jobs.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Considering condition of Corruption, even if they give such product, and the faults are found, all they have to do is toss few millions of % to our politicians to stop the investigation or doctor it.

After all if these cases come out, it affect the credibility of the company and no country expect like ours, will compromise its national security.

There is already talks on the effect on defense companies and many jobs are hanging in the balance if the deal is cancelled/ If you remember, if Boeing wouldn't have got those deals, they were going to lay off many jobs.

Well this is just anecdotal evidence, we have no idea what would happen if this situation occured.

 

[arp2041]

@arp2041 @Abingdonboy Did you watch the Headlines Today ? They were selling junk helicopters to our nation. 1984, they sold us old helis.

Delivered in 1987, two crashed and they were grounded in 1989. India sold these old helicopters back in 2000s.

Helis sold to UK, were not given air-worthiness certificate because of bad conditions.

This is how they sell us bad product while keep the people happy by kick backs. So, this is a case of National Security because of selling crap helicopter which can crash anytime.

This has been presented by Public Prosecutor, news in confirmed.

I told you before, don't post anything based on baseless & senseless ALLEGATIONS.

Look who are you talking about it's called THE IAF, the world's fourth largest AF, one of the most professional AFs in the world, even admired & praised by the enemy.

Do you really think that even if they want to sell a junk to India, A professional force like IAF will accept it on the first place??

Don't talk about 1980s, it is very different than 2013, did we than had the finances, the choices, the options, etc. as we have now?? Remember, world than was still divided into two poles, India was forced to accept many sub standard weapon systems than. But that was than. Today we have LUXURY of CHOICES, where this particular tender had 4 participants & IAF selected the winner solely on the basis of PERFORMANCE. So how in the world they can FOOL a PROFESSIONAL FORCE like IAF when even Mighty US was unable to pressurize it to take there product in the MMRCA deal??? Think before you Post.

As to why @Abingdonboy & me are supporting these helos is concerned, read some technicalities/capabilities of these choppers, u'll get the hint as to why they are simply BEST.

 

[KRAIT]

@arp2041 Where the hell I doubted their capabilities ? And as for IAF, weren't IAF were flying Migs even when they crashed over and over again and ?

All I am saying is that there are bad apples in every circle.

I don't know why are you going berserk on me over my lack of knowledge of technical details. I am not saying which is better or not. All I am saying that we have been duped in the past.

As for old news, I also posted when helis were not given certificate of air-worthiness in 2000. Its 13 years old.

My entire point is credibility of the companies and corruption by people in the govt.

Now you are not thinking of National Interest. Same AirForce which kept using "flying coffins" and we lost so many Pilots, which are damn necessary for National Security as planes don't fly unmanned in our country.

I stop here because you are going to start pointing my knowledge instead of what the Public Prosecutor said.

Italy has also issued arrest warrants for two people living in Switzerland. The head of Finmeccanica's AgustaWestland business, Bruno Spagnolini, has been placed under house arrest.

The Italian government owns about 30% of the company.

BBC News - Finmeccanica helicopter deal payments frozen by India

We have corrupt people in Armed forces too. they are human after all.

I am talking of Corruption and you are talking of capabilities which isn't my point. Well keep believing it, all Armed officers are Saints and Angels, and NO ONE and I mean NO ONE will be greedy or suppressed by Politicians or mistake.

People also said this about Indian Army. Look at the reality.

No need to reply.

RIP to Rationality.

 

[Abingdonboy]

@KRAIT you can't blame the IAF for flying the only planes (MIG-21s) they have avalible to them- if they refused to fly them the IAF's fleet strength would have been <20 SQDs not too long ago. The IAF can't just refuse to fly these birds. They have a mandate to protect their nation and will use the tools available to them. They don't CHOSE to fly these Migs- they HAVE NO CHOICE!


You have to give it to those young guns who are willing to strap themselves into a Mig-21 on a regular basis and go about flying these birds knowing at the back of their mind that every flight could end in disaster. If I was a Mig-21 pilot I would have zero confidence in the machine but they still fly them regardless.


It is the GoI/MoD that failed to address the MIG-21 issue in the IAF up until relatively recently.

+ @KRAIT by Cousin's best freind was a IAF MIG-21 pilot who was seriously injured ejecting from a MIG-21 back in 2000. I know what it takes for these guys to fly these machines day in day out. I am sure you don't mean to blame the very guys putting their lives on the line to protect their nation's skies.

 

[KRAIT]

@Abingdonboy I understand everything but again I stand on my point that there are people who really don't care of it. For them their kick backs are important. What did we do to bring an alternative ?

I trust IAF but I also accept the fact that there might be few people in IAF who thought about personal gains.

I will leave at this. Over and Out.

 

[Abingdonboy]

@Abingdonboy I understand everything but again I stand on my point that there are people who really don't care of it. For them their kick backs are important. What did we do to bring an alternative ?

I trust IAF but I also accept the fact that there might be few people in IAF who thought about personal gains.

I will leave at this. Over and Out.

@KRAIT I get where you are coming from but I am pretty sure that the issues are not within the IAF but the MoD for all the issues surrounding the MIG-21.



+ @KRAIT I think too many people are quick to use the "c" word in India. In many cases it can be comprimised interests or somthing more complex. Corruption is a generalisation. India is by no means immune to it- look at the US and UK armies, it is a fact there are plenty of shady going-ons in their DoD/MoD and senior military establishments wherein there are vested interests and excessively close ties between defence agents/companies and serving military personel. You only have to look at their biggest on-going military expenditures (the big-ticket projects) that are failing to meet all deadlines, to see where the money has gone to and on behalf of wholm.


But in the Indian military I'd say the situation wasn't as bleak. The wrong-doers are mostly in the MoD because the Indian military has very little actual authority to make an order, the military makes suggestions and requests but it is the MoD and other ministeries that actually handle negotians and make the final call. And the MoD is unfortunetely dominated by civilian beaurcrats. Any sensible buissnessmen who were looking to influence a decsion to go their way through the use of bribes wouldn't waste their money on the serving Indian military officers- it just doesn't make buisness sense to.



But naturally in a military >3 MN people there is bound to be a few "bad apples" this is human nature. Even if 0.01% of the military is a "bad apple" this is still 300 guys. These arms dealers are ruthless, they will exploit every person and means to get to the pay day if that means using bribes or any other means of coercion- they'll do it.

 

[axisofevil]

I told you before, don't post anything based on baseless & senseless ALLEGATIONS.

Look who are you talking about it's called THE IAF, the world's fourth largest AF, one of the most professional AFs in the world, even admired & praised by the enemy.

Do you really think that even if they want to sell a junk to India, A professional force like IAF will accept it on the first place??

Don't talk about 1980s, it is very different than 2013, did we than had the finances, the choices, the options, etc. as we have now?? Remember, world than was still divided into two poles, India was forced to accept many sub standard weapon systems than. But that was than. Today we have LUXURY of CHOICES, where this particular tender had 4 participants & IAF selected the winner solely on the basis of PERFORMANCE. So how in the world they can FOOL a PROFESSIONAL FORCE like IAF when even Mighty US was unable to pressurize it to take there product in the MMRCA deal??? Think before you Post.

As to why @Abingdonboy & me are supporting these helos is concerned, read some technicalities/capabilities of these choppers, u'll get the hint as to why they are simply BEST.

If they are so damn good, then they wouldn;t need to pay bribes. Now would they? If they such confidence in ther surperior product that is?

@KRAIT I get where you are coming from but I am pretty sure that the issues are not within the IAF but the MoD for all the issues surrounding the MIG-21.



+ @KRAIT I think too many people are quick to use the "c" word in India. In many cases it can be comprimised interests or somthing more complex. Corruption is a generalisation. India is by no means immune to it- look at the US and UK armies, it is a fact there are plenty of shady going-ons in their DoD/MoD and senior military establishments wherein there are vested interests and excessively close ties between defence agents/companies and serving military personel. You only have to look at their biggest on-going military expenditures (the big-ticket projects) that are failing to meet all deadlines, to see where the money has gone to and on behalf of wholm.


But in the Indian military I'd say the situation wasn't as bleak. The wrong-doers are mostly in the MoD because the Indian military has very little actual authority to make an order, the military makes suggestions and requests but it is the MoD and other ministeries that actually handle negotians and make the final call. And the MoD is unfortunetely dominated by civilian beaurcrats. Any sensible buissnessmen who were looking to influence a decsion to go their way through the use of bribes wouldn't waste their money on the serving Indian military officers- it just doesn't make buisness sense to.


But naturally in a military >3 MN people there is bound to be a few "bad apples" this is human nature. Even if 0.01% of the military is a "bad apple" this is still 300 guys. These arms dealers are ruthless, they will exploit every person and means to get to the pay day if that means using bribes or any other means of coercion- they'll do it.

It doesn;t matter if the amount of ppl are corrupt....what matters is their position in society. If the head is corrupt, the rest of the body will corrupt. And that;s we are seeing in our society. There will always be ppl like you willing to defend the BS going on for decades. Only myopic fools would think that corruption decades ago is not the same. How did you come to that conclusion? There are more tools, more money, more power.

@KRAIT you can't blame the IAF for flying the only planes (MIG-21s) they have avalible to them- if they refused to fly them the IAF's fleet strength would have been <20 SQDs not too long ago. The IAF can't just refuse to fly these birds. They have a mandate to protect their nation and will use the tools available to them. They don't CHOSE to fly these Migs- they HAVE NO CHOICE!


You have to give it to those young guns who are willing to strap themselves into a Mig-21 on a regular basis and go about flying these birds knowing at the back of their mind that every flight could end in disaster. If I was a Mig-21 pilot I would have zero confidence in the machine but they still fly them regardless.


It is the GoI/MoD that failed to address the MIG-21 issue in the IAF up until relatively recently.

+ @KRAIT by Cousin's best freind was a IAF MIG-21 pilot who was seriously injured ejecting from a MIG-21 back in 2000. I know what it takes for these guys to fly these machines day in day out. I am sure you don't mean to blame the very guys putting their lives on the line to protect their nation's skies.

Seriously you are confusing issues here. Nobody is accusing the lonely personnel in the military. We are accsuing the ones in power to make decision. The ones with the power to sway decision. Follow the money. Ask yourself why our govt is taking its sweet f-king time to get money in foreign banks? Wake up

 

[cloud_9]

How 8 choppers became 12 under former Indian Air Force chief of staff S.P. Tyagi

While former Indian Air Force chief of staff S.P. Tyagi has been claiming that no major decision regarding the VVIP helicopter dealwas taken during his tenure, the truth is quite different.

Actually, the size of the deal was jacked up by 50 per cent, from the eight helicopters proposed earlier to 12, during Tyagi’s tenure as air chief between December 31, 2004 and March 31, 2007.

The air headquarters, with Air Chief Marshal Tyagi at the helm, played a crucial role in the decision as the “necessity for the procurement” of 12 helicopters was accepted by the Defence Acquisition Council on January 3, 2006. The request for proposal (RFP) was issued to six vendors on September 27, 2006.

Air Chief Marshal Tyagi has said in his defence that the 556.26 million Euro (Rs.3,546 crore) deal with AgustaWestland was signed in 2010, long after he retired. However, senior defence officers say such deals are a drawn-out process and records clearly show that Tyagi was a key player when the acquisition process was under way.

A serving defence services officer pointed out that increasing the number of choppers amounted to “a misallocation of scarce funds”. “The money should have been used to buy anti-tank or anti-submarine choppers to add to the country’s combat strength, instead of picking up so many white elephants to pamper VVIPs,” he added.

Government sources said the requirement for increasing the number of helicopters from eight to 12 was projected after SPG became part of the acquisition process in 2005.

“Since the helicopters were essentially meant to be used by the President or Prime Minister, who move with their entourage, the need was felt to buy a cargo version of the same aircraft for the support staff,” a government official said.

These requirements were discussed thoroughly by the IAF, National Security Adviser, SPG, PMO and the defence ministry before they were included in the proposal.

The CNC was constituted after the “staff evaluation report” of the air HQ had assessed AgustaWestland to be better than the USA’s Sikorsky, the only other competitor in the field in April 2008. The CNC carried out its discussions with AgustaWestland between September 19, 2008 and January 21, 2009.

Tyagi has claimed that the deal was driven almost entirely by the PMO when the NDA government was in power. It was on the basis of the PMO’s recommendation that the flying height was lowered to allow more companies in the race.

However, this recommendation had to be eventually cleared by the IAF. The recommendation was discussed at length between the IAF, NSA, SPG/PMO and MoD between March 2005 and September 2006 during Tyagi’s tenure before the changes were incorporated.