Nawaz Sharif rejects Pak Army inquiry report on Karachi incident

[Fawadqasim1]

thus spoke patwari e azam

 

[TheDarkKnight]

What do you think it is the chief was investigating, and what are these other officers being reprimanded for, if not for this kidnapping saga?

This is not a kidnapping case - its an overblown accusation like throwing accusations of “assault” for pushing someone over. No FIR was filed by the police for “Kidnapping”. Police IG would at-least know how to file an FIR of his own kidnapping at-least. The sagga is about Rangers overstepping their authority and made the Sindh IG log an FIR - some intimidation and roughing up may have taken place which is the norm as per the “Thana” culture prevalent in our police stations (isnt this how the police treat general public anyway? Not justifying the behavior but still - as you sow, so shall you reap). The rona dhona of Kidnapping, breaking into bedroom of a woman etc. are all theatrics for political purposes.

A) The rangers are answerable to the federal government, they have no legal authority or right to arrest/abduct/kidnap IG police.

Never said they have the authority to kidnap IG Sindh. I only explained their presence in Sindh and the mandate they have in Karachi. The context is important for every matter. Your issue is that you want to look at things in isolation so maximum political milage can be given to a certain party. For an impartial and objective opinion you need to consider the context and the environment.

B) Irrelevant, your personal opinion here is not the subject. Also let's not get into whataboutery. We're talking about this incident, not what about x,y,z injustice. Whatever you think of Sindh police, kidnapping of IG is illegal and abhorrent. Period.

Isn’t the OP itself a personal opinion, the one ‘rejecting’ the report? An opinion of a person who is now a proven absconder and liar as per our courts? And aren’t you also doing the same thing your self - providing personal opinions on the matter and how “ridiculous” ISPR statement was. I consider it some what hypocritical.
And the fact that thousands of people have died under the patronage of Sindh police and govt is not just a personal opinion. Injustices are the actual cause of all conflicts - if we deal with them properly on time then a lot of fitnas can be avoided - again not a personal opinion but general wisdom that should be applied here.

C) No it absolutely does not, let's see a citation for your claim that the army/rangers have the authority to do this? In the past illegal detention has been attempted to be justified by using the vague and draconian protection ordinance, that won't fly here.

I'm no legal expert but here's my take. Last I recall Rangers were only given very limited legal cover for arrest and detention in Sindh under Article 147 of the Constitution a few years ago. This ability was solely limited to provisions related to the Anti-terror Act. That was limited scope and for a limited time.

As for arrests the Pakistan Criminal Procedure Code: Chapter V (Of arrest, escape and retaking), B. Section 54 (Arrest without warrant) clearly applies to police officers who see a "cognizable offence" (Definition (f) ), or against a person for whom they have reasonable/credible suspicion or complaint. Not even Section 155 applies here.

I never said Rangers have authority to “kidnap” IG Sindh. I said that as per the law, COAS has the right to discipline personnel under his command - and relevant actions have been taken. If you think Bilawal Bhutto has the right or the Ex PM has that authority to discipline then please cite the specific laws. You can be dissatisfied with it, just like ex pm is in his tweet. But isn’t this the most that even CMs and IGs do for personnel under their own command - transfers or suspensions at the most even for gross criminal activities? I am pretty sure somewhere in the constitution it was illegal for Punjab police to massacre openly in model town, but so far I know, not a single officer was reprimanded under PM NS leadership - who is seen here taking a very hypocritical stance for law and order. Mind you I consider a single innocent life more precious then the so called honor of a dishonorable police force - thats just my personal opinion of-course.

In the broader context, its about time Karachi enters into 21st century where the civil police is solely responsible for law and order of the city. With ten plus years in Sindh govt, PPP should have figured out how to govern Karachi by now - just like other provinces have. Having army involved in civil duties will always result in unnecessary issues like this - as armed forces DNA is completely different. This is not a personal opinion - this is common political sense.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

What report? All we got so far is a ridiculous statement from ISPR excusing or attempting to explain an illegal kidnapping carried out by multiple armed forces personnel. The explanations and rationale given for these actions within that statement are both astonishing and absurd.

This is a case of Army officials deployed in Karachi in support of civilian law enforcement agencies and the civilian government acting outside their mandate, and the first set of disciplinary actions is for the military to remove them from their post.

Intent and the understanding of the law (in terms of whether the individuals alleged to have ordered the actions against the IG police thought that their actions were legal and justifiable) will also play a role in the kind of final disciplinary action that is taken. This leeway is extended to law enforcement agencies everywhere, and the Rangers have been pushed into that role in Karachi.

Whether additional actions, such as court martial, is deemed necessary, we shall have to wait and see, but you know that from now on career advancement of the impacted military officials is going to be extremely limited to non-existent given this ‘black mark’ on their records.

 

[Jungibaaz]

The rona dhona of Kidnapping, breaking into bedroom of a woman etc. are all theatrics for political purposes.

First of all this part I never brought up the breaking bit, you did. So this is a strawman and it’s not addressing my points at all, I frankly couldn’t care less about Safdar’s arrest, it happened, don’t care. I’m not objecting to his arrest, only to what happened with the IG. I'll clarify a bit my opinions on the arrest below.

This is not a kidnapping case - its an overblown accusation like throwing accusations of “assault” for pushing someone over. No FIR was filed by the police for “Kidnapping”. Police IG would at-least know how to file an FIR of his own kidnapping at-least. The sagga is about Rangers overstepping their authority and made the Sindh IG log an FIR - some intimidation and roughing up may have taken place which is the norm as per the “Thana” culture prevalent in our police stations (isnt this how the police treat general public anyway? Not justifying the behavior but still - as you sow, so shall you reap).

Good to know you’re now not justifying this (underlined part), in the last post however it did seem that you were saying that the army/rangers have the right to do this, I agree.

But please explain to me, naive as I am. How it is one forces an IG to do their bidding? As for "roughing up", how does that occur? Are you saying that IG was not kidnapped, presumably he was taken by the rangers, (whatever you want to call “taken”) and then roughed up? Even ordinary civilians are protected under Pakistan Criminal Procedure code from illegal detention, and duress. You can't dismiss this as thana culture, we're talking about the most senior police officer here, not some petty thief.

You’re claiming if this happens to an IG that it is par for the course? People are making a mountain out of a molehill? Come on... please consider what you are saying here.

Never said they have the authority to kidnap IG Sindh. I only explained their presence in Sindh and the mandate they have in Karachi.

You were simply stating an irrelevancy then? And that too incorrectly as I might add.

Good that we can agree that they have no right to force IG to do anything let alone detain/kidnap, politely "rough up" etc etc wordplay; thus forcing him to do their bidding.

The context is important for every matter.

How?! You are making an argument to excuse the action of rangers and then backing off it so as to cover for the invalidity of the argument. Here's a simple question for me to establish (or reject) the validity of this argument that you’ve presented as context in an attempt to challenge or undermine the narrative here:

If Rangers do indeed have some limited rights to arrest and detain people, does that mean that they can coerce an IG? Do their limited rights in anyway materially affect the legality of what they have been alleged to do?

The answer to both, if you speak truly is simply “No.”. Hence just what use your purported context is here is frankly moot.

Your issue is that you want to look at things in isolation so maximum political milage can be given to a certain party. For an impartial and objective opinion you need to consider the context and the environment.

As I’ve said here and elsewhere Safdar’s arrest and PML angle I don’t care about. Nice attempt to poke holes in my argument by questioning my credibility and objectivity.

Safdar did violate the sanctity of mazar e Quaid, and as for police, even if they broke to enter the room. The law allows them to do this when the need arises. Whether it happened or how the arrest was done. I simply don’t care, any more remarks as a counter argument from now on in this debate, I’ll simply assume call out as tangential, since we’ve already established my views here.

Isn’t the OP itself a personal opinion, the one ‘rejecting’ the report? An opinion of a person who is now a proven absconder and liar as per our courts? And aren’t you also doing the same thing your self - providing personal opinions on the matter and how “ridiculous” ISPR statement was. I consider it some what hypocritical.

First of all, there is no report out yet. Just a statement by ISPR. As for Nawaz, you can absolutely question his character and record etc... but what he says is of no consequence to the actual matter at hand, which is what happened between the IG and Rangers.

Simply saying; "the guy who’s tweeting this is a scoundrel", is not really any counter argument or way to excuse the actual matter.

I’ll explain the logical invalidity of dismissing a case made by a group of people by claiming one of the opposing voices is to your disliking and not to be trusted on other matters not directly related:

If Nawaz tweets claiming Einstein’s general relativity is a sound theory and that if one were to jump from a window, one would fall. Even if I thought Nawaz was the biggest thief and scoundrel on earth. I wouldn’t be naturally inclined to try my luck out of the nearest window. At best, I will learn about general relativity and come to my own conclusion. I would not even if I were an opponent of general relativity, use Nawaz's tweet as a means to undermine the validity of it, it would be an absurdity.

Point being, Nawaz’s tweet may be the OP, but it’s not the basis for the allegations against IG, nor is it the basis for any argument that IG’s case was an example of gross misconduct. My concern for the alleged kidnapping of the IG was present before this thread and before Nawaz spoke at all on the matter.

And the fact that thousands of people have died under the patronage of Sindh police and govt is not just a personal opinion. Injustices are the actual cause of all conflicts - if we deal with them properly on time then a lot of fitnas can be avoided - again not a personal opinion but general wisdom that should be applied here.

Sure, but please stick to the subject. You can do both of these things; you can criticise Sindh police, Sindh government and the opposition, and you can categorically denounce the abduction of coercion of a serving IG by rangers or other military officers. Can we not agree at least on the latter?

I never said Rangers have authority to “kidnap” IG Sindh. I said that as per the law, COAS has the right to discipline personnel under his command - and relevant actions have been taken.

Good, no disagreement on this point.

If you think Bilawal Bhutto has the right or the Ex PM has that authority to discipline then please cite the specific laws. You can be dissatisfied with it, just like ex pm is in his tweet. But isn’t this the most that even CMs and IGs do for personnel under their own command - transfers or suspensions at the most even for gross criminal activities?

I never claimed such anyway. Federal governments have the authority and courts can take notice, that is the extent of what I said in these discussions. The COAS also took notice as his own men were involved and that's also his prerogative.

I am pretty sure somewhere in the constitution it was illegal for Punjab police to massacre openly in model town, but so far I know, not a single officer was reprimanded under PM NS leadership - who is seen here taking a very hypocritical stance for law and order. Mind you I consider a single innocent life more precious then the so called honor of a dishonorable police force - thats just my personal opinion of-course.

In the broader context, its about time Karachi enters into 21st century where the civil police is solely responsible for law and order of the city. With ten plus years in Sindh govt, PPP should have figured out how to govern Karachi by now - just like other provinces have. Having army involved in civil duties will always result in unnecessary issues like this - as armed forces DNA is completely different. This is not a personal opinion - this is common political sense.

Your personal opinions here and before I have not taken issue with, nor will I address them as I have areas of agreement with you. But I will add that they bare no relevance to the matter of what happened to the IG, and the legality of any actions taken by military persons therein, and these are the crux of the debate at hand.

 

[HRK]

if not for this kidnapping saga?

kidnapping of IG is illegal and abhorrent.

 

[Black.Mamba]

View attachment 687263

What if his first words are "Mujhay kyun nikala....."

 

[BlueWhales]

 

[HaMoTZeMaS]

Could someone put corks into his holes,, life would be so easy

Some mates here are soooo that... they forget to use common sense
And blindly believe everything they hear and see