Navy's MiG29 superior to IAF's Sukhoi 30

[Just Yash]

Long long time ago this tread was " Navy's Mig 29 superior to IAF Su-30 MKI"

 

[Champa-Chameli]

And how it will happen?
Do u even know the range of F-16s APG 68v9 for huge RCS plane like SU-30MKI?



What can i do when u have supposed that F-16 will be on defensive and will not shot AMRAAM can u tell me what makes u think that?



Higer then AIM-120c



F-16 blk 52 is better.



Yeah agreed...u high nmbrs of MKI's, but we are trying our best to get 100 F-16's C/D MLUs by 2015.
And one more point, PAF have to defend only 170mn people. And 1000mn+



F-16 blk 52 are armed with BVR's



Still israeli ECM is not better as compared to american's ECM.

There is just a traditional thinking that American technology will be superior(always)
It's not your problem.
Its the mind set to be blamed.
You think USA is the dad, but every DAD dies one day and is taken over by children.
There is a world beyond USA
E.G:Which is the world's fastest and the best cruise missile?
Ans:BrahMos.
its not from USA.Its an India-Russia venture.
decenter your mind, which is centered over USA,as the only source of Best technology.

 

[Sudesh Lahri]

Navy's MiGs superior to IAF's Sukhois

Can you share links of the source.

 

[back me up]

Can you share links of the source.

its in rediff. just do a google search of the article

 

[mjnaushad]

Can you share links of the source.

Navy's MiG-29K superior to IAF's SU-30MKI

 

[trident2010]

I am liking this comparision. Which is better ? Once we get MRCA , more to compare. Comparing the best of the best.

Gone the time when we have to choose from best of the worst.

Now any one of these will be top most for majority of contemporary airforces. Hope we gonna do loads of these sorts of comparision for Indian armed forces .

Keep it going ..

 

[mjnaushad]

There is just a traditional thinking that American technology will be superior(always)
It's not your problem.
Its the mind set to be blamed.
You think USA is the dad, but every DAD dies one day and is taken over by children.
There is a world beyond USA
E.G:Which is the world's fastest and the best cruise missile?
Ans:BrahMos.
its not from USA.Its an India-Russia venture.
decenter your mind, which is centered over USA,as the only source of Best technology.

Every country have its own needs.....US dont have Super Sonic Cruise that doesn't mean it can't make one.....US have no opponent to counter in its 300 KM range with a cruise missile..... Even if it had to it will send one stealth bomber to do the job....

Talking of cruise missile...You might be intrested in this news

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gene...ersonic Flight Deemed Success&channel=defense

 

[Dark Angel]

N011M has a search range of 350 km and a tracking range of 200 km, with 60 km in the rear in the air to air mode. Up to 15 air targets can be tracked at once in track-while-scan mode with 4 of these engaged at once.


The N011 is capable of detecting a tank sized target to a range maximum range of 50 km and a destroyer sized target to a range of 150 km

Su-30MKI can function as a mini-AWACS as a director or command post for other aircraft. The target co-ordinates can be transferred automatically to at least four other aircraft

 

[Ping]

^ Those ranges could very well be for a B-52 or Boeing 747. Unless you have RCS figures accompanying them, those ranges are meaningless. Those figures you posted are claimed by the website run by an IAF fan. It's a tripod website which can be created in 10 minutes for free. Take those figures with caution!

But there is the problem, 135 nautical miles are 250Km! A fighter sized target, which normally is given with 5m2 will be detected according to your graphic at around 100nm = 185Km and an F16 B52 at around 80nm = 148Km!
That means the 140Km, that the brochure is claiming, are most likely for RCS between 1 and 2 m2.

That's a very dangerous assumption. The graph I posted is from an unofficial analyst. He most probably got the data from unofficial sources. There is a tripod website by an IAF fan which claims those figures. So take what that graph says with caution.

Also it's not 185 km, but around 175 kms.

I dunno what is wrong with the Russians, they release Irbis data, but they don't release old BARS' data. Maybe IAF is pressurizing them to not publish the Radar's data.

----

Talking about Irbis, here is the official link which confirms the awesome range, with RCS, I gave earlier for the radar: http://www.niip.ru/modules/Downloads/docs/2006/2006_5.pdf

Interested people, download it fast, as niip has a habit of taking things off from their site, just like they did with BARS. It's in russian, but you can make out the numbers. If you want to read it then try babelfish translator.

 

[sancho]

That's a very dangerous assumption. The graph I posted is from an unofficial analyst. He most probably got the data from unofficial sources. There is a tripod website by an IAF fan which claims those figures. So take what that graph says with caution.

But you posted it as a source to prove your point, so you must think it would be reliable right? I just corrected you, that it shows far more detection range.
I guess the IAF fan site you are talking about is this one:

The Su-30MKI Info Page - Vayu Sena

This source alone might not be enough to prove the detection range, but you can't say that these are only claims of an IAF fan, because the details about the MKI and also about the Bars radar are very detailed.
I did some research too and found this site about Russian avionics and radars, which is very detailed and confirms the same infos that the vayu sena site offers about Bars.

Overscan's guide to Russian Military Avionics

As you can see, the vayu sena site is not just a fan site with baseless claims and I also found this Russian news report that proves around 350Km detection range for bigger aircrafts and 200Km tracking range for fighter sized targets for Bars too.

Su-30, Star of the Fleet - MoscowTopNews.com


I don't say that you are completly wrong, but the sources you provided yet, don't say anything about the RCS for the 140Km. Is it for 3m2, or 5m2?
Also your point is that Zhuk ME has a comparable range, because it's newer, but that alone is also not reliable to me too. BARS has a clearly bigger diameter (around 1000mm, while Zhuk ME in Mig 29 has a diameter of 624mm only) and also more power than Zhuk ME, which normally translates into longer detection range and that would explain why it has such a range, or is called a "mini Awacs". Also you must take to account that the 011M is a further development, of the older 011 and was improved during the years, which the vayu sena site and the Russian avionics site confirms. That all are clear points to me that BARS has higher ranges and why its clearly superior to Zhuk ME.

Also it's not 185 km, but around 175 kms.

I used this site to convert it and it says, 100nm = 185.2Km

ENZAIR - Tools - NM in km umrechnen

 

[Ping]

But you posted it as a source to prove your point, so you must think it would be reliable right? I just corrected you, that it shows far more detection range.

I posted it not to prove, but to disprove my earlier point. I was just checking out the various sources.
And it is not 100nm, it's around 94nm.

The Su-30MKI Info Page - Vayu Sena
^ Yup, this is the fan site I was talking about.

http://aerospace.boopidoo.com/phile...scan's guide to Russian Military Avionics.htm
^ This link only confirms what the brochure says. 140km Detection range and 60km for tail-chase. It does not say 200km for a fighter class target.

Su-30, Star of the Fleet - MoscowTopNews.com
^ This link does not say 200km for a fighter class target!

I don't say that you are completly wrong, but the sources you provided yet, don't say anything about the RCS for the 140Km. Is it for 3m2, or 5m2?

The same goes for your sources. But the Russians generally use 3m2 or 5m2 in their brochures, as you pointed out. Even if we consider it as 3m2, then it is slightly less than what the graph claims, and no where close to 200km for the fighter class target claim.

Also your point is that Zhuk ME has a comparable range, because it's newer, but that alone is also not reliable to me too. BARS has a clearly bigger diameter (around 1000mm, while Zhuk ME in Mig 29 has a diameter of 624mm only) and also more power than Zhuk ME, which normally translates into longer detection range and that would explain why it has such a range, or is called a "mini Awacs".

Which is why it is longer ranged than Zhuk-ME, because of the bigger antennae. The power output for Zhuk-ME is bigger than BARS! It is 6kw, but for BARS it is 5KW, if my memory is right. Also the Mean power is 1.5kw and 1.2kw for Zhuk & BARS respectively.

Also you must take to account that the 011M is a further development, of the older 011 and was improved during the years, which the vayu sena site and the Russian avionics site confirms. That all are clear points to me that BARS has higher ranges and why its clearly superior to Zhuk ME.

It's a further development in the sense, it is an ESA, and hence isn't power hungry like the earlier BARS. It offers similar detection ranges but for less power.

 

[sancho]

^ This link only confirms what the brochure says. 140km Detection range and 60km for tail-chase. It does not say 200km for a fighter class target.

But again not against what RCS, but on the other hand that a Su 27 was detected at 330Km, which the vayu sena site said too. That's why I said, I'm not saying you are wrong, but if it detects a large fighter like the Su 27 at that high ranges, a smaller fighter like F16 at 140 - 160Km like the vayu sena stated is possible.

The same goes for your sources. But the Russians generally use 3m2 or 5m2 in their brochures, as you pointed out. Even if we consider it as 3m2, then it is slightly less than what the graph claims, and no where close to 200km for the fighter class target claim.

The graph is not the point for me, that site has interesting infos about Russian fighters, but is not the most reliable one. The vayu sena site and the Russian sites seems to be better and confirms each other too. Large detection ranges for fighters (from Su 27 downwards), btw in the latest articles about the Garuda 2010 exercise it is also stated that Bars has a detection range of around 100nm = 185Km and the fighters that were there are small Mirage 2000s, F16 B52, or even Rafales! I don't say Bars will detect them all at this ranges, of course, but that is another prove to me for its capabilities. So several different sources, from different countries claims the same about it's capabilities, the point for you is the 140Km range, but without saying for what RCS. If that's the range for a 1-3 m2 target, up to 200Km ranges for 3-5 m2 targets are still possible, also 330Km for bigger targets like a Su 27. Overall this is very impressive and if we compare it with Eurofighters Captor M for example even comparable. The Captor M has a diameter of 700 - 750mm (depending on source) and is said to have detection ranges for fighter sized targets of 160 - 180Km, also for targets with a RCS between 3-5 m2.

 

[Sri]

I hope the below Image can give some good comparisions

 

[Ping]

^ That graph was already posted by me Sri.

But again not against what RCS, but on the other hand that a Su 27 was detected at 330Km, which the vayu sena site said too. That's why I said, I'm not saying you are wrong, but if it detects a large fighter like the Su 27 at that high ranges, a smaller fighter like F16 at 140 - 160Km like the vayu sena stated is possible.

It was during a test. They never mention how long did the detection last nor did it mention about the status of Su-27. It was just an incident during a test, not the official specs. Specs are something, which can stand scrutiny of the buyer nations. Any buyer will first test if the specs given by the manufacture are correct before buying. So figures given in Specs are more accurate & truthful.

The graph is not the point for me, that site has interesting infos about Russian fighters, but is not the most reliable one. The vayu sena site and the Russian sites seems to be better and confirms each other too. Large detection ranges for fighters (from Su 27 downwards), btw in the latest articles about the Garuda 2010 exercise it is also stated that Bars has a detection range of around 100nm = 185Km and the fighters that were there are small Mirage 2000s, F16 B52, or even Rafales! I don't say Bars will detect them all at this ranges, of course, but that is another prove to me for its capabilities. So several different sources, from different countries claims the same about it's capabilities, the point for you is the 140Km range, but without saying for what RCS. If that's the range for a 1-3 m2 target, up to 200Km ranges for 3-5 m2 targets are still possible, also 330Km for bigger targets like a Su 27. Overall this is very impressive and if we compare it with Eurofighters Captor M for example even comparable. The Captor M has a diameter of 700 - 750mm (depending on source) and is said to have detection ranges for fighter sized targets of 160 - 180Km, also for targets with a RCS between 3-5 m2.

Russian never ever give out their specs with 1 or 2 m2 RCS. They have never done so ever! Those brochures claim an official figure with either 3 or 5 m2. That much is 100% certain.
Those planes in Garuda, they have to be carrying ordinance. So Their RCS will be large. I'm glad to hear it can Detect those fighters at 185 km.


I think I can deduce what is going on. This statement is the center of confusion:
"A Bars' test radar is said to have detected Su-27 fighters at a range of over 330 km, tracked several targets while volume scanning, and correctly identified aerial targets. "
Overscan's guide to Russian Military Avionics

The Vayusena & other websites took that statement and passed it off as the official specs. During a test, the Su-27 fighters, were detected at those immense ranges. The statement does not mention if the Su-27 was loaded with AA or AG ordinance, nor does it mention how long did the detection last. If the Su-27, while doing a turn exposes it's belly, perpendicular to the radar beam, then it creates an RCS spike. You can't take an incident and assume it is the official specs. The official specs clearly mentions the range is 140km. The Question is is it for 3m2 or 5m2? But I think this may help:

"N001 has a search range of 80-100km against a 3 sq m RCS target in a headon engagement, 140km against a large bomber. It can track a 3 sq m target at 65km."
Overscan's guide to Russian Military Avionics

This radar, the predecessor to BARS, with an Antennae diameter of 1075mm, and a mean power of 1 kw can detect a 3sqm RCS at a distance of 80-100km and track it at 65km. So a newer Bars with a 1.2kw mean power & a 1000mm dish will realistically be able to detect a 3sqm target at 140km. Also Russians only use 2 RCS figures to release their specs as confirmed by the above link. All the radar ranges are either given with 3sqm or 5sqm. I think we just solved the puzzle.

So Bars specs is:
Can Track- 15 Targets
Can Simultaneously Engage - 4 Targets
Max Detection for 3 sqm RCS - 140 km
http://www.roe.ru/cataloque/air_craft/aircraft_99-102.pdf

Irbis, with a peak power of 20kw. That's right, 20KW!!! That's 4-5 times larger than Bars! And a mean power of 5kw, that's more than 4 times larger than Bars, can detect a 3sqm target at 350-400km. The Problem with PESA is some of the power is wasted as noise. That's why Aesa is required. So with those power enhancements & some new processors, Irbis detection range is 2.7 times the BARS range.

 

[Sri]

Hi

NIIP have publicly cited detection range performance of 350 to 400 km (190 to 215 NMI), which assuming a Russian industry standard 2.5m2 target, is consistent with the 2008 APA model for a radar using ~10W rated TR modules, which in turn is the power rating for the modules used in the Zhuk AE prototypes. This puts the nett peak power at ~15 kiloWatts, slightly below the Irbis E, but even a very modest 25% increase in TR module output rating would overcome this.

According to the above para from air power Australia - Russian industry standard is 2.5m2 target.