Navy's MiG29 superior to IAF's Sukhoi 30

[anathema]

Just ask yourself...

why did they use the same 8222 in their F15s instead of the original US one?
why are the Israeli F16 Sufa said to be the most capable F16 version below the Block 60, which are also customised with Israeli avionics?
why did they wanted their own EL 2032 radar for Sufas and now even want NG avionics over the US in F35?
why did the RSAF upgraded several avionics with Israeli systems?
why did they also choose the Phalcon AWACS over new E-2s?
why did the US companies co-developed JHMCS with Elbit?

Precisely !!! I believe LCA has DASH , right ?

 

[Guynextdoor]

nopes..PAF got it for WOT....and it can fire Aim 120c but the radar would be more optimized for terrain matching...

Na dude, there is some ambiguity. See they actually paid the money for F 16s way back in 1980s. We were irritated but waited till the cash went to the US n THEN:
a) Lobbied n got in the pressler amendment which effectively sent them on a tailspin trying to secure the jets
b) Took them so long to get out of that loop that it easily mixed up with the jets they got for free

Not clear on how exactly we got the policy front executed so may be wrong in some points but what I'm NOT wrong on is that in several completely (cough) unrelated (cough cough) developments, Garry Pressler became the member of the board of some key Indian corporations (cough cough cough)

 

[Hasnain2009]

F16 is the most proven combat jet fighter in history and none can deny that. So F16 has a reputation to live upto.



RCS does not depend on heat. RCS purely depends structural anomalies which reflects back the radar waves to the transmitter; unlike F22 which deflects it in a other direction or absorbs them.

Engine heat - will be a problem if a missile with passive seeker is fired.But there are counter measure to these.

Imagine these -- F15 another succesfull fighter (impeccable record) is a twin engined beast and very similar to MKI. It hasnt faced this problem yet.



F16 RCS is low but not that low. In all probability MKI will be the first one to look at the F16 and fire a shot at F16--

And how it will happen?
Do u even know the range of F-16s APG 68v9 for huge RCS plane like SU-30MKI?

This would be to purely to gain tactical advantage. .i.e Fire the missile , so that F16 pilot will not have time to fire his AMRAM (he will be on defensive). AMRAM is a potent missile -- possibly the best but you should know that Of the 15 fired in combat , only 6 have hit their target. --- I dont have the source - but this is public knowledge

What can i do when u have supposed that F-16 will be on defensive and will not shot AMRAAM can u tell me what makes u think that?

MKI has higher speed

Higer then AIM-120c

better TWR ration , good ECM

F-16 blk 52 is better.

great payload and more important -- HUGE NUMBERS -- 124 inducted at the moment ,will be going upto 270's.

Yeah agreed...u high nmbrs of MKI's, but we are trying our best to get 100 F-16's C/D MLUs by 2015.
And one more point, PAF have to defend only 170mn people. And 1000mn+

aim 120d not with pakistan --atleast not yet.

F-16 blk 52 are armed with BVR's

Smart electronics ....you do know that MKI has Israeli ECM...they are very much comparable to American ECM. Point to note that -- Israelis have their own ECM (Elsira , i believe) in their F16 and similarly for their F15.... they did not opt for the American ECM.

Still israeli ECM is not better as compared to american's ECM.

 

[Hasnain2009]

Just ask yourself...

why did they use the same 8222 in their F15s instead of the original US one?

Also ask them why they import pakistani made UAV's?

why are the Israeli F16 Sufa said to be the most capable F16 version below the Block 60

I stopped reading ur post write from here and i dont need to anser it bcoz u already answered ur question that US's F-16 blk 60 is superior to isreals's F-16 sufa, so u i m happy that u admit that Israeli tech is inferior to US. Then i decided to read whole of ur post, with some popcorns actually

which are also customised with Israeli avionics?
why did they wanted their own EL 2032 radar for Sufas and now even want NG avionics over the US in F35?
why did the RSAF upgraded several avionics with Israeli systems?
why did they also choose the Phalcon AWACS over new E-2s?
why did the US companies co-developed JHMCS with Elbit?
...
...
...

When it comes to avionics, radar, or missile technologies, the Israelis belongs to the best in the world

I m not answering it, bcoz professional member will answer this.(In better way)

and that's why also China wanted many things from them (Python 3 missiles, Phalcon AWACS, Levi fighter, 2032 radar...).

Dont divert discussion, just prove ur authenticity, just tell me ur answer in one line, which country is superior in defence tech?

Which country has better ECM tech?

 

[Guynextdoor]

And how it will happen?
Do u even know the range of F-16s APG 68v9 for huge RCS plane like SU-30MKI?



What can i do when u have supposed that F-16 will be on defensive and will not shot AMRAAM can u tell me what makes u think that?



Higer then AIM-120c



F-16 blk 52 is better.



Yeah agreed...u high nmbrs of MKI's, but we are trying our best to get 100 F-16's C/D MLUs by 2015.
And one more point, PAF have to defend only 170mn people. And 1000mn+



F-16 blk 52 are armed with BVR's



Still israeli ECM is not better as compared to american's ECM.

I have no clue what ur trying to prove= That the F 16 a 1970s design now in phase out stage in most AFs where it is serving suddenly becomes a miraculous bezinkel wepon coz it's flown by pak pilots? It's more manuverabe coz 'better TWR' but if we say that Su has TVC, that's not supposed to count coz F16 has 'smarter electronics'. Fact is that the F 16 was a great wepon like the spitfire and there is only so much that technical advancement can help it go.

 

[sancho]

That is not 135 km, it's 135 Nautical miles!

But there is the problem, 135 nautical miles are 250Km! A fighter sized target, which normally is given with 5m2 will be detected according to your graphic at around 100nm = 185Km and an F16 B52 at around 80nm = 148Km!
That means the 140Km, that the brochure is claiming, are most likely for RCS between 1 and 2 m2.

 

[Hasnain2009]

I have no clue what ur trying to prove= That the F 16 a 1970s design now in phase out stage in most AFs where it is serving suddenly becomes a miraculous bezinkel wepon coz it's flown by pak pilots? It's more manuverabe coz 'better TWR' but if we say that Su has TVC, that's not supposed to count coz F16 has 'smarter electronics'. Fact is that the F 16 was a great wepon like the spitfire and there is only so much that technical advancement can help it go.

I think the world's biggest air fore(USAF) is using them, F-16 is still working horse of the best air forces of the world, and USA will start retiring after 2025, they can buy F-22/F-35(5th gen fighters) bcoz their defence budget is $700bn, God knows what will be their budget in 2025. If u think F-16 is that bad then why Indian govt is afraid of F-16s? Why Indian govt called US ambassador to india to clarify the delivery of F-16s? Why they dont want PAF to use these ancient F-16s against mighty Su-30MKIs? Why India sent the RFI for a F-16C/D Block 52+. Buddy there is something really big that u dont know

 

[sancho]

I stopped reading ur post write from here and i dont need to anser it bcoz u already answered ur question that US's F-16 blk 60 is superior to isreals's F-16 sufa, so u i m happy that u admit that Israeli tech is inferior to US.

Of course Block 60 is superior to Sufa, because it carries an AESA radar, things would be pretty different if the Israelis could integrate 2052 AESA don't you think?
Sad that you seems to be not interested in an unbiased discussion, but just inform yourself a bit more about Israeli avionics and you will see what I meant.

 

[anathema]

And how it will happen?
Do u even know the range of F-16s APG 68v9 for huge RCS plane like SU-30MKI?

AIM 120C5 operational range is said to be around 85 miles whereas AIM 120D is said to have around 120 miles.

No escape zone of AIM 120C5 is said to be around 40 -50 miles . For pilot to have a high probability of kill , he should be firing around in this range. R77 AA EE is said to be around 120 miles similar to AIM 120 D.

Bars radar detection ranges have so far been not clear. But it detects ship sizes targets at 400 KM ..and fighter sized targets ( 1mm- 2mm RCS) at 140 KM's. Apg 68 radar specs is less favourable to Bars at this moment. .i.e MKI will have time to squeeze in a couple of shots -- before F16 squeezes in another.


However all that being said -- MKI's will never be tasked to engage F16 , it will primarily Mig 29's who will engage F16.

F-16 blk 52 is better.

Blck 52 is not better. mki scores on TWR and speed.

Yeah agreed...u high nmbrs of MKI's, but we are trying our best to get 100 F-16's C/D MLUs by 2015.
And one more point, PAF have to defend only 170mn people. And 1000mn+

True. As always advantage will always be with home ground.

Still israeli ECM is not better as compared to american's ECM.

Sancho's post that you ridiculed is very true. There's a reason that israelis are trying to put their own ECM in american fighter planes. They are negotiating the same thing for F35!!! Israelis are trying to put advanced elsira ECM suite in F35 , they are not opting for american ecm (atleast trying to)...it does tell you something.

 

[Guynextdoor]

I think the world's biggest air fore(USAF) is using them, F-16 is still working horse of the best air forces of the world, and USA will start retiring after 2025, they can buy F-22/F-35(5th gen fighters) bcoz their defence budget is $700bn, God knows what will be their budget in 2025. If u think F-16 is that bad then why Indian govt is afraid of F-16s? Why Indian govt called US ambassador to india to clarify the delivery of F-16s? Why they dont want PAF to use these ancient F-16s against mighty Su-30MKIs? Why India sent the RFI for a F-16C/D Block 52+. Buddy there is something really big that u dont know

The world's biggest arforce (USAF) is actively trying to phase them out and and have been working for replacements for DECADES. It's gonna be a MUSEUM PIECE in 7 Yrs. Hell, even with stuff like supercruise & AESA the IAF isn't gonna induct them n ur so happy that down rated versions.
It's the Indian Govt's job to ensure that known enemies fight with sticks and stones (n with enemies like u guys i have no doubts they'll be succesful). If the F 16 had been inducted in 1980, would have been a real threat, wake up it's 2010.

I personally find most of your points speculative BS:
a) Ohhh Su 30 may have TVC but I guess better electronics will take that out
b) ISraeli stuff is not gonna be better than US stuff
c) Remember it's Pakistani pilots who are gonna fly these things so F 16'll start flying like the raptor and clingon warship
(source: hear say/tell tale acoounts of military valor...ya I've heard that before, like the time when u said one of your soldiers was equal to three of ours...now we all know where that got you. somehow I think that's what ur planning for the next war- 40 F 16s Vs 120 Su 30,n sabres will then give you air dominance. math is perfect)

 

[back me up]

Remember it's Pakistani pilots who are gonna fly these things so F 16'll start flying like the raptor and clingon warship

ive seen this a LOT trustme

 

[bluefox]

Yeah agreed...u high nmbrs of MKI's, but we are trying our best to get 100 F-16's C/D MLUs by 2015.
And one more point, PAF have to defend only 170mn people. And 1000mn+

Well i would like to draw ur attention towards the highlited part.
What is there to defend if there isnt an attacker??im if PAF will never cross pak air space and come in Indian air space what is there to defend??And if u say that pak will be offensive and cross the borders do u think ur Number's of air craft is enof to gain superiority over our Huge air space??
On the contrary IAF has to just penetrate 250-300 kms to reach ur western border.How will pak reach,per say air bases in assam ,west bengal tamilnadu??

 

[Joe Shearer]

Are u out of mind?
Cost of F-16 blk 52 was $83mn(in 2006/when PAF ordered)

(36 F-16s blk 52 = $3bn)

And some of indians say that PAF is getting these equipment in low prices, i was wondering what will be the price of F-16blk 52 in 2010 with out concession!

Dear Sir,

I am assured by my medical advisors that I am normally unhealthy, with a tendency towards excess weight, hypertension (after excessive Internet access in particular) and with high cholesterol. There have been no suspicions of my mental stability except by my wife, usually when I am driving (it may not be what you might be expecting; she expects me to drive faster!).

Regarding the price that you quoted, I am not sure that you read my post. I was referring to the force planning by the PAF. The entire force, not the F16 component alone.

In any case, what was your point? That an expensive purchase thereby indicates better strategy, or vice versa? If so, surely even you can see what a silly statement that is. The PAF leadership showed great leadership by making the most of the limited budgets that they had access to. If they had unlimited funds (no air force does), then it would not have been great leadership. Then the Brunei Air Force or the KSA Air Force would be the best in the world.

Sincerely,

 

[Guynextdoor]

ive seen this a LOT trustme

I really know what you mean dude...

 

[Joe Shearer]

Also ask them why they import pakistani made UAV's?

Surely the reason is obvious? Lower cost of production. Israel has been a leader in UAV technology right from the outset, and has nothing to learn from anyone else, including the US, in this area.

Or in any electronic area.

I stopped reading ur post write from here and i dont need to anser it bcoz u already answered ur question that US's F-16 blk 60 is superior to isreals's F-16 sufa, so u i m happy that u admit that Israeli tech is inferior to US. Then i decided to read whole of ur post, with some popcorns actually




I m not answering it, bcoz professional member will answer this.(In better way)



Dont divert discussion, just prove ur authenticity, just tell me ur answer in one line, which country is superior in defence tech?

Which country has better ECM tech?

Immeasurably, by yards, the Israelis. The French challenge them from time to time, and the Americans have pre-emptive rights on much that is co-developed, but as a stand-alone entity, the Israelis.

You may not be aware that most Israeli firms are manned by ex-servicemen who are aware of precisely where the shoe pinches, and are able to adapt their own knowledge of military service to the specifications that their management and the Israeli military leadership lay down. Thereafter all renovation keeps pace with field developments and practices at a very rapid rate, with constant feedback.

You should further know that Israeli firms are generally also jointly quoted on American stock markets, and are registered and partly capitalised and funded by American capital. This is no secret. All Israeli technology is immediately available to the US. It is not always adopted by the US, because of differences in doctrine.

Given a choice between buying American and buying Israeli, there is no question at all, it is better to buy Israeli. It is easier to deal with them as well.

These statements are based on practical experience.

Sincerely,