Naval equipment: Pak lags far behind India

[Trichy]

then why your army is on our side of the border, why not send it to somewhere near USA, why are we a big threat to you??

Mo chota ho to bateen badi badi nahi kiya karte

Are you really ok??? Is India share any border with USA??? The Indian Army is there to STOP and prevent the Terrorist & Smuggling.

 

[waq]

(here is what india is in store for u
Akula-1/INS Chakra 2009 Sea trials
Akula-2/INS ? 2011

Arihant class submarine INS Arihant S73 2012 Launched on 26 July 2009
ATV-2 2011 Being built by the Ship Building Center, Vishakhapatnam
ATV-3 2012 Under construction
ATV-4 2013
ATV-5 2014
ATV-6 2014-15

Project 75 Scorpene class Scorpene-1 2012 Under construction
Scorpene-2 2013
Scorpene-3 2014
Scorpene-4 2015
Scorpene-5 2016
Scorpene-6 2017 +6 more scorpion or the u-boats form the germans
Project 75B P75B-1 2015 U-214/Amur[2] /[[DCNS|DCNS submarine]
P75B-2 2016
P75B-3 2017
P75B-4 2018
P75B-5 2019
P75B-6 2020

Indian Navy Future ships...

Aircraft carriers (2 under construction)

Vikrant (Project 71) INS Vikrant India Cochin Shipyard
INS Vikrant (Indigenous Aircraft Carrier)

Kiev INS Vikramaditya formerly Gorshkov Russia Severodvinsk, Russia


Destroyers (3 under construction)

INS Kolkata
INS Kochi
Yard 12703


Frigates (6 under construction)

INS Shivalik
INS Satpura
INS Sahyadri

INS Teg
INS Tarkash
INS Trikand

Corvettes (4 under construction)

Project 28
Yard 3017
Yard 3018
Yard 3019
Yard 3020

Mine countermeasure vessels (2 under construction)
MCMV 2 under construction

Patrol crafts (10 under construction)

INS Saryu
INS ???
INS ???
INS ??? India Goa Shipyard Limited
Car Nicobar INS Cankarso (T73)
INS Kondul (T74)
INS Kalpeni (T75)
INS ???
INS ???
INS ???
these are not slow and steady these are on track...........
so two words for u "WAKE UP")
sir this is not fair.why shud be pakistan navy threatened by huge navies like USN or IN.the comparisoion shud be on capability and operational readiness basis not on number of projects.IN projects are huge so does their coastline and responsibilities.we have a relatively small coastline to defend so why shud we have hundreds of platforms

 

[Hindustani]

then why your army is on our side of the border, why not send it to somewhere near USA, why are we a big threat to you??

Mo chota ho to bateen badi badi nahi kiya karte

You can't be serious.

 

[paritosh]

half of your population live in poverty, your country dont even have enough toilets, so many are homeless, other then that, how many slums does your country have??

and calling us poor, what a nut head

dude get out of your closet...!
read the United nations 2010 human resource development index...
Pakistan is placed at 125....India is placed at 119
Pakistan has more poverty than India with a 54.0 rating than 53.5 of ours...
read this....
Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan
and
Statistics | Human Development Reports (HDR) | United Nations Development Programme (UNDP)
so you are in no way better off...so stick to the thread...

 

[Trichy]

dude get out of your closet...!
read the United nations 2010 human resource development index...
Pakistan is placed at 125....India is placed at 119
Pakistan has more poverty than India with a 54.0 rating than 53.5 of ours...
read this....
Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan
and
Statistics | Human Development Reports (HDR) | United Nations Development Programme (UNDP)
so you are in no way better off...so stick to the thread...

Now they say per person for this, not accepted by them

 

[MAFIAN GOD]

sir this is not fair.why shud be pakistan navy threatened by huge navies like USN or IN.the comparisoion shud be on capability and operational readiness basis not on number of projects.IN projects are huge so does their coastline and responsibilities.we have a relatively small coastline to defend so why shud we have hundreds of platforms

Actually as the name of the thread suggests,Pak really lags behind India.
but Pak is not threatened here.This thread is just showing how we are advancing ourselves technologically better than Pak.
Our projects are huge so does our coastline and responsibilities.
IN always helps to counter piracy in Indian Ocean.
IN also helped Shri Lanka,Maldives,Indonesia during Tsunami.

 

[Vajra_Yuddh]

dude get out of your closet...!
read the United nations 2010 human resource development index...
Pakistan is placed at 125....India is placed at 119
Pakistan has more poverty than India with a 54.0 rating than 53.5 of ours...
read this....
Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan
and
Statistics | Human Development Reports (HDR) | United Nations Development Programme (UNDP)
so you are in no way better off...so stick to the thread...

Actually I read it that our poverty rate is around 19-20% and nowhere close to 50s. I remember doing a report on it with my classmates last year for Economics.

 

[sancho]

in early 1990s, Pakistan Navy ahead. I remember reading an article in The Nation newspaper written by a former admiral of indian navy, admitting this. At the current time, india's surface fleet is larger than ours --as is their tech. advantage. Then again, they have much larger shore lines to guard and worry about whereas we only have the southern sector + Gwadar. Because of threat assesment and priorities, navy has traditionally been given least amount of attention.

things seem to be changing now

as we decomission older vessels and are inducting new naval systems and force multipliers, the gap is narrowing...

...we do lag behind hindustan on naval front, however this lag will not be so large over time....

Hi Abu Zolfiqar

I disagree here, because PN will remain clearly smaller and clearly less capable in terms of techs than IN in future too!

It's true that PN needs to cover only a smaller area and IN a way bigger, but but the important point is, that PN can't pose a real threat to Indias southern, or eastern costlines! That means in a PN vs IN war situation, IN don't have to deploy full forces there and could concentrate on the Arabian sea mainly. The limited number of PN will still be in a clear disadvantage here, because although they are modernising the fleet, it is not a modernisation on the same level as IN.

PN F22p frigate:

Armament:

- 1× 8-cell FM-90N SAM launcher
- 2× 4-cell C-802 SSM launchers
- 2× 3-cell ET-52C torpedo launchers
- 2× 6-cell RDC-32 anti-submarine rockets


USS McInerney frigate:

Oliver Hazard Perry Class frigates still serve with the US Navy, but American ships have had their bow-mounted Mk.13 launch systems for SM-1 Standard air defense and RGM-84 Harpoon anti-ship missiles removed. Those changes leave just torpedoes and a 76mm naval gun for offense, and the 20mm Phalanx CIWS as the ships’ main defensive weapon.

Further reports indicate that McInerney’s refurbishments are aimed at improving its anti-submarine capability only, making the term “guided missile frigate” something of a misnomer. Unless Pakistan undertakes additional approved work, its Alamgir Class will be anti-submarine frigates only, their weaponry outclassed by Pakistan’s new Chinese F-22P/ Zulfiquar Class multi-role frigates, and even its older British Type 21/ Tariq Class ships.

Perrys for Pakistan: USS McInerney & the Alamgir Class


An this is what IN is inducting at the moment in the same class!


Talwar class frigate:

Due to the use of stealth technologies and a special hull design, the resulting frigate features reduced radar cross section (RCS) as well as electromagnetic, acoustic and infrared signatures. Equipped with Russian-made sensors and weapon systems, the Talwar class frigates are modern ships with balanced capabilities, capable of countering modern Western naval assets.

Talwar class frigate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Armament (only missiles and torpedos):

- 8-cell VLS for 3M-54E Klub and BrahMos missiles,
- 1 3S-90 launcher for 9M317 (SA-N-12) SAMs,
- 8 Igla-1E (SA-16) SAMs
- 1 x RBU-6000 rocket launcher,
- 2 twin 533mm torpedo tubes


Shivalik class frigate:

The main features of the class are its stealth characteristics and the land-attack capability. The ships incorporate structural, thermal and acoustic stealth features.[24] They will be armed with the Klub anti-ship and BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles.

Shivalik class frigate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Armament (only missiles and torpedos):

- 32 x Barak SAM
- 9M317 (SA-N-12) SAM, total of 24 missiles
- 8 x Klub/Brahmos cruise Missiles
- 90R missiles (ASW)
- DTA-53-956 torpedoes
- Klub ASW Missile
- 2x RBU-6000 (RPK-8)


As you can see, IN is already inducting vessels with latest designs, systems and very powerful armament, while even increasing the numerical superiority!
Even if we take a defensive role for PN only, the only real threat to IN are the Agosta subs with AIP propulsions, while the surface fleet can easily be countered. PN will mainly be dependent on long range shore based air support to keep IN away from Pakistans coast lines.
Imo, PN should have get more licence produced Agosta subs with AIP, than desperately hunting for new and more expensive western subs. That would have made PN way stronger in defense and more over in offense against IN.

Btw, while PN is negotiating Milgem class stealth corvette, IN has already launched it's new corvette class, so that won't be a game changer too:

Kamorta class corvette:

Kamorta class corvette - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pakistan is recognized by the world for its liberal and succesful contribution of peacekeepers to UN. We should expand on that and put more emphasis on maritime security (which were are doing now) as well as anti-piracy. This can bring good name to Pakistan and also open up the doors to future deals and joint ops with other countries.

I'm living in Germany and can tell you, that the German and European public as well as media, have very little knowledge about how many Pakistani, Indian, or Bangladeshi troops are serving in UN missions, or what contribution they have. All they know is that western countries are the main financiers of the UN and that's why for example Germans often think Germany deservs a permanent UNC seat, besides beeing one of the leading world economies of course.
Especially when it comes to Pakistan, there is only one image people in the west have in mind now, Terrorist!
Be it the Taliban that are operating in western Pakistan, be it Al Kaida that are operating from terror camps in Pakistan, even the fact that many terror suspects that were catched by the police in western countries are Pakistanis is clearly working against a good point of view of Pakistan, it's people, or the contribution Pak forces have in UN missions. So if you expect benefits in future deals, this image has to change first!
For example, the U 214 sub deal with Germany, is imo still not cleared once because HDW hopes to win the bigger deal in India, but possibly also because the actual German gov could not justify such a deal to the public here and they are already in a bad situation when it comes to public opinion.
Last news reports I saw from German press was, that the gov and even the security council approved the deal to PN, but that is some month ago and if it is still not fixed yet, only the above mentioned points could be the reasons.

Regards

 

[shrivatsa]

I do not know the latest situation of meetings made to develop a domestic Pakistani made corvette based on Milgem. In October, A group of Pakistani Naval officials visited first Milgem corvette and It is expressed in those days many times that Pakistan is interested in producing 4 of them.

Let development of a corvette based on Milgem aside, I think Pakistan is waiting for TF-2000 AAW Frigate/Destroyer program to participate. Feasibility reports have been completed and Despite It is not revealed into public until now, Design is ready at present. It would be really strategic enough to change the power balances of the regions exported. At feasibility reports, Even Laser and Microwave weapon systems have also been mentioned. Those destroyers would be used both ASuW and AAW missions thanks to state of art sensors, sonar and radars. In additions, It is also around plans to deploy VL Cruise missiles on them. Hunting such a ship with conventional tactics is almost impossible because Such type destroyers provide 360 degree/hundreds of km aerial Search/Protections against enemy Aircrafts/Missiles thanks to APAR radars having capability of classifying thousands of targets simultaneously.

micro wave ,laser i dont know .ships with vl cm we already have .and these

is already under construction.and succesor to these already been sanctioned by the govt

specifications

Class overview

Name: Kolkata class destroyer
Builders: Mazagon Dock Limited, India
Operators: Indian Navy
Preceded by: Delhi-class destroyer
Succeeded by: Project 15B
Cost: est. US $317 million each
Building: 3
Planned: 7
General characteristics

Type: Guided missile destroyer
Displacement: 6800 tons
Length: 163 metres
Beam: 17.4 metres
Propulsion: Four Ukrainian Zorya Production Association M36E ('E' for Export) gas turbine plants.; two shafts
Speed: 30+ knots
Sensors and processing systems: EL/M-2248 MF-STAR Multi-mission radar EL/M-2238 L-band STAR surveillance radar HUMSA-NG(Hull-mounted Sonar Array – new generation) Nagin active towed array sonar
Electronic warfare and decoys: DESEAVER MK
Armament: 16-cell BrahMos UVLM; 2 x 32-cell Barak II SAM; 4 x AK-630 30mm gatling guns,RBU-6000 smerch-2 ASW Rocket Launchers,Torpedo launchers Anti-submarine rockets. Aircraft carried: 2 helicopters
Ships in class include: INS Kolkata, INS Chennai, INS Bengaluru, INS Kochi
Names with commission dates: Kolkata; Laid Down - 26 September 2003, Launched - 30 March 2006, Commissioning - 2012.
.........................................Kochi; Laid Down - 25 October 2005, Launched - 18 September 2009, Commissioning - 2013.
.........................................Not Known; Laid Down - 21 February 2006, Launch - 2011, Commissioning - 2014.
Tags:guided missile destroyerindian navyindigenousintegrated platform management system.l-3 mappskolkata classproject 15awarship

ww.indian-military.org/navy/ships/destroyers/143-type-15a--project-15a-kolkata-class-guided-missile-destroyer.html

 

[sageof6path]

(here is what india is in store for u
Akula-1/INS Chakra 2009 Sea trials
Akula-2/INS ? 2011

Arihant class submarine INS Arihant S73 2012 Launched on 26 July 2009
ATV-2 2011 Being built by the Ship Building Center, Vishakhapatnam
ATV-3 2012 Under construction
ATV-4 2013
ATV-5 2014
ATV-6 2014-15

Project 75 Scorpene class Scorpene-1 2012 Under construction
Scorpene-2 2013
Scorpene-3 2014
Scorpene-4 2015
Scorpene-5 2016
Scorpene-6 2017 +6 more scorpion or the u-boats form the germans
Project 75B P75B-1 2015 U-214/Amur[2] /[[DCNS|DCNS submarine]
P75B-2 2016
P75B-3 2017
P75B-4 2018
P75B-5 2019
P75B-6 2020

Indian Navy Future ships...

Aircraft carriers (2 under construction)

Vikrant (Project 71) INS Vikrant India Cochin Shipyard
INS Vikrant (Indigenous Aircraft Carrier)

Kiev INS Vikramaditya formerly Gorshkov Russia Severodvinsk, Russia


Destroyers (3 under construction)

INS Kolkata
INS Kochi
Yard 12703


Frigates (6 under construction)

INS Shivalik
INS Satpura
INS Sahyadri

INS Teg
INS Tarkash
INS Trikand

Corvettes (4 under construction)

Project 28
Yard 3017
Yard 3018
Yard 3019
Yard 3020

Mine countermeasure vessels (2 under construction)
MCMV 2 under construction

Patrol crafts (10 under construction)

INS Saryu
INS ???
INS ???
INS ??? India Goa Shipyard Limited
Car Nicobar INS Cankarso (T73)
INS Kondul (T74)
INS Kalpeni (T75)
INS ???
INS ???
INS ???
these are not slow and steady these are on track...........
so two words for u "WAKE UP")
sir this is not fair.why shud be pakistan navy threatened by huge navies like USN or IN.the comparisoion shud be on capability and operational readiness basis not on number of projects.IN projects are huge so does their coastline and responsibilities.we have a relatively small coastline to defend so why shud we have hundreds of platforms

please check the post to which i replied this to and u will understand the reason......... thx

 

[GORKHALI]

Hi Abu Zolfiqar

I disagree here, because PN will remain clearly smaller and clearly less capable in terms of techs than IN in future too!

It's true that PN needs to cover only a smaller area and IN a way bigger, but but the important point is, that PN can't pose a real threat to Indias southern, or eastern costlines! That means in a PN vs IN war situation, IN don't have to deploy full forces there and could concentrate on the Arabian sea mainly. The limited number of PN will still be in a clear disadvantage here, because although they are modernising the fleet, it is not a modernisation on the same level as IN.
PN F22p frigate:

Armament:

- 1× 8-cell FM-90N SAM launcher
- 2× 4-cell C-802 SSM launchers
- 2× 3-cell ET-52C torpedo launchers
- 2× 6-cell RDC-32 anti-submarine rockets


USS McInerney frigate:

Perrys for Pakistan: USS McInerney & the Alamgir Class


An this is what IN is inducting at the moment in the same class!


Talwar class frigate:

Talwar class frigate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Armament (only missiles and torpedos):

- 8-cell VLS for 3M-54E Klub and BrahMos missiles,
- 1 3S-90 launcher for 9M317 (SA-N-12) SAMs,
- 8 Igla-1E (SA-16) SAMs
- 1 x RBU-6000 rocket launcher,
- 2 twin 533mm torpedo tubes


Shivalik class frigate:

Shivalik class frigate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Armament (only missiles and torpedos):

- 32 x Barak SAM
- 9M317 (SA-N-12) SAM, total of 24 missiles
- 8 x Klub/Brahmos cruise Missiles
- 90R missiles (ASW)
- DTA-53-956 torpedoes
- Klub ASW Missile
- 2x RBU-6000 (RPK-8)


As you can see, IN is already inducting vessels with latest designs, systems and very powerful armament, while even increasing the numerical superiority!
Even if we take a defensive role for PN only, the only real threat to IN are the Agosta subs with AIP propulsions, while the surface fleet can easily be countered. PN will mainly be dependent on long range shore based air support to keep IN away from Pakistans coast lines.
Imo, PN should have get more licence produced Agosta subs with AIP, than desperately hunting for new and more expensive western subs. That would have made PN way stronger in defense and more over in offense against IN.

Btw, while PN is negotiating Milgem class stealth corvette, IN has already launched it's new corvette class, so that won't be a game changer too:

Kamorta class corvette:

Kamorta class corvette - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm living in Germany and can tell you, that the German and European public as well as media, have very little knowledge about how many Pakistani, Indian, or Bangladeshi troops are serving in UN missions, or what contribution they have. All they know is that western countries are the main financiers of the UN and that's why for example Germans often think Germany deservs a permanent UNC seat, besides beeing one of the leading world economies of course.
Especially when it comes to Pakistan, there is only one image people in the west have in mind now, Terrorist!
Be it the Taliban that are operating in western Pakistan, be it Al Kaida that are operating from terror camps in Pakistan, even the fact that many terror suspects that were catched by the police in western countries are Pakistanis is clearly working against a good point of view of Pakistan, it's people, or the contribution Pak forces have in UN missions. So if you expect benefits in future deals, this image has to change first!
For example, the U 214 sub deal with Germany, is imo still not cleared once because HDW hopes to win the bigger deal in India, but possibly also because the actual German gov could not justify such a deal to the public here and they are already in a bad situation when it comes to public opinion.
Last news reports I saw from German press was, that the gov and even the security council approved the deal to PN, but that is some month ago and if it is still not fixed yet, only the above mentioned points could be the reasons.

Regards

clearly sancho zameen asmann ka antar here specially shivalik class

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

what part of defensive force did you not understand??

 

[notorious_eagle]

Hi Abu Zolfiqar

I disagree here, because PN will remain clearly smaller and clearly less capable in terms of techs than IN in future too!

It's true that PN needs to cover only a smaller area and IN a way bigger, but but the important point is, that PN can't pose a real threat to Indias southern, or eastern costlines! That means in a PN vs IN war situation, IN don't have to deploy full forces there and could concentrate on the Arabian sea mainly. The limited number of PN will still be in a clear disadvantage here, because although they are modernising the fleet, it is not a modernisation on the same level as IN.

Indeed, at the rate the IN is progressing its simply exceptional. But that being said, the question is still can the IN come into our waters and blockade them? Out in the open water engaging IN would be suicide because they would simply massacre the PN. But that is not what PN intends to do, they intend to stay in our waters and fight the IN from there. Our coastline is around 290 miles, this gives us the advantage of concentrating our naval based assets backed up by 12 Mirages armed with Exocets and dozens of other land based assets that are capable of firing ASM's. So its quite easy to say that IN can blockade Pakistan, but things are not as black and white as you assume. If PN manages to thwart an attack from the IN and manages to keep the waters open, thats a victory for Pakistan.

 

[anathema]

Indeed, at the rate the IN is progressing its simply exceptional. But that being said, the question is still can the IN come into our waters and blockade them? Out in the open water engaging IN would be suicide because they would simply massacre the PN. But that is not what PN intends to do, they intend to stay in our waters and fight the IN from there. Our coastline is around 290 miles, this gives us the advantage of concentrating our naval based assets backed up by 12 Mirages armed with Exocets and dozens of other land based assets that are capable of firing ASM's. So its quite easy to say that IN can blockade Pakistan, but things are not as black and white as you assume. If PN manages to thwart an attack from the IN and manages to keep the waters open, thats a victory for Pakistan.

NE,

It all depends on how you look at it.

I personally feel that a defensive navy is highly over-rated word. A navy cannot conduct guerrilla attacks ala army and neither can it conduct raids ala air force without venturing out of its turf (exception subs- which i will come to later).

So what would be a defensive navy in terms of Pakistan ? It would be purely a force which is kept in its own territory and trying its best to keep the by lanes open. However the advantage of a narrow coast becomes a disadvantage here. Your navy will be constricted in a narrow space and with the reluctance to move outside from its comfort zone would become easy pickings for IN once they decide to venture in your territory. India not being an expeditionary force will not mind taking in some losses while trying to enforce this and neither will public opinion change in case of losses.

With regards to exocet armed Mirage III , Mig 29K's and harriers will be specifically tasked to neutralize or counter this threat. And depending purely on land based ASM's will not do you any good if IN only wishes to close the by lanes. They really dont need to move in close, they only have to deter merchant vessles for entering pak waters.

Subs can be an excellent answer given Pakistan's qualitative edge in Agosta, but given the limited number will it be enough ? IN's sub fleet however miserable it is will also move in much before its conventional fleet moves in. So we have two that plays the same game.

IMHO Pakistani navy has to be proactive and engage Indian navy in open waters conducting Hit and run tactics before IN tries to venture into your waters. It will end up buying lot of time and maybe sway battle in PN's favour.

 

[GodlessBastard]

Indeed, at the rate the IN is progressing its simply exceptional. But that being said, the question is still can the IN come into our waters and blockade them? Out in the open water engaging IN would be suicide because they would simply massacre the PN. But that is not what PN intends to do, they intend to stay in our waters and fight the IN from there. Our coastline is around 290 miles, this gives us the advantage of concentrating our naval based assets backed up by 12 Mirages armed with Exocets and dozens of other land based assets that are capable of firing ASM's. So its quite easy to say that IN can blockade Pakistan, but things are not as black and white as you assume. If PN manages to thwart an attack from the IN and manages to keep the waters open, thats a victory for Pakistan.

So while 12 Mirages with Exocets sink Indian warships, what will the Harrier and MiG-29K pilots be doing, eating lunch?

The PN should stick to using submarines to disrupt Indian shipping in case of a war. The PN submarine arm has always been the most potent part of the navy and will probably stay that way. Engaging the IN in the open will be a disaster, as you said.

Surface warships and naval aviation are two areas where India has an overwhelming conventional advantage over Pakistan. Trying to engage India in either of these areas is a pretty stupid idea.