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Naval Blockade of Pakistan

Das,

I personally dont think it will be that easier for IN to take out the mine sweepers, it will take a lot of courage, and PN is not that stupid that it will have the mine sweepers sitting duck.

Personally i believe, latest frigates and destroyers will leave a good space or at least they will gaurd them, not just that Mirages and Orions will also support them in this mission.

Also just to add that, its not only ship class mine sweepers in PN inventory there are subs that mine too!
 
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PN Subs can lay mines but I dont think they can hunt or sweep mines.
The PN is already outnumbered the 8 frigates will be needed for everything from ASW to providing escort
and the Mirage of PAF will have their hands full dealing with the SeaHarriers
Obviously minelaying will not be the only activity of the IN in times of war but it will a diversion of precious resources of PN which can prove fatal.
Also minesweeping is the most thankless of jobs in the best of times.Minefields are relatively cheap and easy way to keep your enemy occupied.
 
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N. S. Kohli Wednesday 13, July 2005
Source: Daily Excelsior
Captain Richard Sharpe in the editorial of the 2003-04 editions of Jane's Fighting Ships had bemoaned the decline of the Indian Navy. Ships under construction are running behind schedule, those in service are suffering from lack of spares and refit updates are postponed. Comparatively, Pakistan Navy is on an acquisition spree. It has acquired four Type 21 Amazon Class frigates from the UK and is fitting them out with the harpoons. The Pakistan Navy early retrofitted their Agosta and Daphne submarines with Harpoons at Karachi and acquired under water missile capability by 1987, leaving the Indian Navy behind. It has also acquired a Dutch replenishment ship Momin and has acquired three Agosta class submarines from France.

The US Congress has approved the $368 million arms package for Pakistan and so its Navy is all set to induct three PC3 Mark II updated Orion long-range, lethal harpoon missile firing patrol aircraft. These will operate from PNS Mehran at Karachi for which facilities and most training have been completed. Once inducted, the Indian Navy can forget about ambitions of sea control in the Arabian sea. Defence of a big target like an aircraft carrier, against Harpoon firing Orions escorted by F-16 and submarines will be challenging. To recall matters in the 1971 Indo-Pak war, the aircraft carrier INS Vikrant was assigned to the East Coast as it was considered vulnerable on West Coast.


The Indian Navy and the defence ministry have been engaged in the great debate as to whether money should be put into submarines or aircraft carriers and procrastination has delayed decisions on both options. Fortunately in the 80s, thanks to the largesse of erstwhile USSR, India acquired 8 kilo class and leased a Charlie class nuclear submarine INS Chakra on easy terms. Generous naval budgets, courtesy Indira and Rajiv Gandhi governments, also ensured the debate and decision took back stage. Today, even rich nations have to decide on where to place the accent, submarines or carriers if both are not affordable and that decision has to be based on the threat perception, in India's case vis-…-vis Pakistan and China for the present

The fallout of the aircraft carrier versus submarine debate has plagued many navies in the last two decades. It is a debate in which the emotional aspects of the people at the helm play a role. Only professional appreciation of financial outlays of these two madonnas of the seas can lead to any sensible conclusions. In the US, Admiral Rickover steered the nuclear submarine's case with political finesse and the result is that the US Navy has no diesel submarines and 118 nuclear boats in its inventory. The US carrier fleet is being cut from 13 to 9. In the Royal Navy, a minister and admiral resigned in 1979 when the wings of Royal Naval Aviation were clipped in favour of the Trident class submarines. The British Navy then termed their three new construction, Harrier-equipped aircraft carriers by the misnomer "Through Deck Cruisers." The Royal Navy also decided to sell one of these three ships the HMS Invincible to the Australians Navy for $300 million in 1993. The Australian needed a replacement for their aging carrier HMS Melbourne. However, the euphoria of the Falklands victory ensured the HMS Invincible staying with Britain and the HMS Hermes, now the INS Viraat was offered to the Australians.

Historically, in the late 70s naval aviation lobby plugged for the only aircraft that could operate from the INS Vikrant the British Aerospace vertical take-off and landing VSTOL Harriers to replace the aging Sea Hawks. At one seminar, when a junior officer surmised that if the navy acquired Harriers then it would need to look at an expensive $400 million platform too, he was politely told that the seminar was to loot at the Harrier and he could come when the seminar on the Carrier would be held.

When the grapevine of staff requirements indicated that one version of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) would be carrier borne and catapult capable, and aviators did not wish to miss the boat a 24,000 tonne platform has adorned the navy's designing boards. A naval ship from design to operational service takes 10 to 15-years even in advanced countries, so the eyes of the navy have fallen on the huge 40,000-tonne Russian carrier Gorshkov. The team that visited Murmansk saw her lying dodo and the Russians were in no mood financially to operate her. In any case, Russians had made the mistake of fitting her out with a huge fixed bulbous bow and a protruding sonar dome, which neither fits into India's operational scenario or allows this 39-foot deep draft ship to enter Bombay unless she lightens herself, a practice no naval ship should be encouraged to do. However, the carrier is undergoing retrofitting and will join the Navy in less than three years.

In industry, internal rate of return (IRR) has come to stay but life cycle costing for expensive toys like ships and aircraft was only attempted by the late air chief marshal PC Lal, and many thought he was well ahead of his times for an armed force like that of India's, steeped in bureaucracy and strong non-professional civilian-led decision making.

In the case of submarines, the nuclear option for power plants is overwhelming if the experience of the US, Russia, France, China and UK are anything to go by. The Indian Navy learnt the ropes of nuclear propulsion on INS Chakra when she was on loan from 1986 to 91, but the Indian Navy is back to square one and the great submarine - versus - aircraft carrier debate will continue in the corridors of South Block for some more time

Regards
Tiger
 
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Ghazi was just badluck for the PN
but the point is that with only 3-4 operational subs at any onetime it is unlikely that they will be sent on minelaying missions,as they are also the principal strike weapon of the PN.
While the IN can spare atleast the Foxtrots for the minelaying roles where a one or two is bound to be lost
they still have the kilos for the anti-ship role
 
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Originally posted by miroslav@Jan 4 2006, 09:20 AM
What is your definition of latest Pn firgate and destroyers???
[post=5057]Quoted post[/post]​

The ones that are on order i.e F-22p and Perry Class.

Spruance can be one of the latest destroyers, latest being newest and advanced than that of in PN inventory already.

You know how PNS Ghazi sunk.

It got trapped in it's own mines and INS Vikrant (For whom she was laying mines) was not even near the 100 Miles radius.

That wouldn't make PN to change its strategy now will it?
 
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Originally posted by miroslav@Jan 5 2006, 02:23 PM
Don't count on Foxtrots.

We have 2 on paper.

One is already in refit and never gonna come back in service. Aother is being used for trail platforms.

Thanks,

Miro
[post=5118]Quoted post[/post]​
Oh Dammit I thought you guys had around 6 or more of these old subs
 
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Even with that Pakistan takes an edge over qualtivity as far as submarine warfare goes, unless one Scorpene has already been inducted. *cough* *cough*
 
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None of the Scorpene's have been inducted as work recently started on the first one in France. Pakistan was wise to get back to the drawing board immediately and is already looking for a sub to counter the Scorpenes.
 
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Blockading pakistan doesnt necessaruily mean coming close to the land,In can easily blockade Pakistan by staying away from the land,and if thats the case then what wud PN do,i am sure they are not going to send their ships out there if they dont get proper aircover from PAF.And with no refuelling capacity PN is going to find it difficult.
 
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It is pointless to discuss Naval blockade of Pakistan when currently the atmosphere is of peace and in the imminent future Gwadar port would come up and take over the more important role from Karachi.

It would be thrice as difficult for the IN to blockade Gwadar than Karachi at the minimum.
 
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Originally posted by Sid@Mar 7 2006, 12:00 PM
It would thrice as difficult for the IN to blockade Gwadar than Karachi at the minimum.
[post=6748]Quoted post[/post]​

it requires only a third of the effort for IN to blockade karachi,so blockading gwadar wont be that easy going by your calculations. :yahoo:
 
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I dont think I said anything different. Blockading Gwadar would take much more effort from the IN and could possibly be impossible to achieve given how far Gwadar is from India's closest naval base.
 
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Originally posted by Das Reich@Dec 23 2005, 07:02 AM
What about good old minelaying could the Indians just choke all supply lines by offensive minelaying w/o risking any valuable naval assests?
[post=4749]Quoted post[/post]​


Surface Mine laying Vessels are quite susceptable from Air Attack and by Armed Surface Vessels.

Submarines are effective but how many of these does India posses AND the Pakistan's sea access is not via a narrow strait like Iraq's access via the Homruz strait which Iranian submarines could blockade with mines. Pakistan faces no such restriction.
 
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Originally posted by sigatoka@Mar 8 2006, 06:55 AM
Surface Mine laying Vessels are quite susceptable from Air Attack and by Armed Surface Vessels.

Submarines are effective but how many of these does India posses AND the Pakistan's sea access is not via a narrow strait like Iraq's access via the Homruz strait which Iranian submarines could blockade with mines. Pakistan faces no such restriction.
[post=6805]Quoted post[/post]​

Gwadar is said to be 725 km away from the coast.i think with the Indians navy able to patrol upyo malacca straits,gwadar wont be inaccessible.
 
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The biggest threat to a IN flotilla trying to blockade Karachi are the PN Submarines.

The IN knows this and has over time invested heavily into ASW assets.Infact we have some of the best SONARs suited for our conditions.

A PN submarine will effectively compromise its location the moment it fires a torpedo/missile against a IN vessel.

Which is why I seriously doubt that PN is going to employ its subs in a defensive role.

They can always look for fireworks in Mumbai.

A stray missile or two from a PN boat can set fire to those oil platforms and stuff near Bombay.

These are static targets and therefore the subs can fire a rocket or two in leisure.

The P3s launching Harpoons are not a great threat since the IN would always bring a aircraft carrier to keep enemy birds ~300 kms away from the fleet.
 
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