Naval Blockade of Pakistan

[ISI2003]

the missile can be fired from land based launchers

it's not supersonic

also the design is helpful to getting the missile to the target, the guidance has been in the works for years, and the chinese have been try to, and have gotten cruise missile guidnace from many conflicts (tomahawk) and have bought these kh-55's from ukraine

they have been working on cruise misiles since the silkworms, so they have decades of guidance experience

if pakistan has the technology (made in pakistan), they will share it with china, the chese systems are better than the babr, of course

the chinese can't use some of the techniques of the babur as the gidance is based on way points and in the south china sea, its sea!, so no natural guidance points

but the chinese are working on their own map of the world guidnace, there own GPS like system, and target IDing will be done by new chinese spy satellites

so they are ahead of pakistan

 

[miroslav]

Originally posted by isawazirzada@Dec 2 2005, 02:31 AM
Does pakistan produce oil... i think we do.. but since it is a low quantity we should only use it as a reserve.. what do you think?
Can you elaborate????! :reading1:

[post=4190]Quoted post[/post]​

Anytime.

Click Here

Thanks

Miro

 

[EagleEyes]

Originally posted by miroslav@Dec 3 2005, 03:06 PM
Anytime.

Click Here

Thanks

Miro

[post=4315]Quoted post[/post]​

He was talking about if how would Stealth frigates will do against the patrol boats? Against this idea?

its an idea actually used by a us marine gneral, and it sunk 14 ships

 

[miroslav]

Originally posted by WebMaster@Dec 4 2005, 12:32 PM
He was talking about if how would Stealth frigates will do against the patrol boats? Against this idea?

[post=4369]Quoted post[/post]​

Webby

# 1 I am not Naval Expert.

# 2 I couldnt understand his superior English.

You know Indian Education Systems???? They teach us a very simple English.

Anyways let me come to the point.

Though the IN ships are stealth they can see other ships including the famous Jalat Class Missile Boats on their Radar/Sonar whatever.

Besides IN has a fleet of KA-25/28/31 ASW/AWACS Heli's along with Sea-King in Large numbers and ALH. (Production is continuing in large numbers).

Also let us not forget the Tu-142/Do-228 and IL-38's.

All these aircrafts will be doing Recco and Surveyllance for the IN surface fleet.

If you wish I can put the entire Western Fleet of IN. Especially the Missile Boats which are more than both Quality, Quantity and In terms of weapons than the PN.

Not to forget the Osa class small missile boats could attack on Karachi back in 1971 after the IN destroyed the resistance of PN surface/Submarine fleet.

So obviously PN has to do same before the Small missile boats could reach the Indian ports and/or Surface Vessels.

Thanks,

Miro

P.S: - Please feel free to ask anything. I can also put the technical specs of the Radars/Sonar's on the IN vessels and Especially their Anti-Ship assets.

 

[miroslav]

Originally posted by sigatoka@Dec 2 2005, 04:06 PM
Miroslav bangladesh could give Pakitan the right to use ports and its waters but in a conflict such agreement would be useless. Pakistani vessels would not be allowed to travel to Bangladesh. Why do u assume that Indian vessels will be allowed to cross Pakistani waters to reach Gwadar port and Iran??

[post=4210]Quoted post[/post]​

IN vessels are already deployed in the Persian Gulf covering the asses of US Naval Ships there.

Also there is a belt in the Arabian Sea which is known as International Waters. It dosent belong to IN/PN or any gulf/Persian Country.

Attacking a Naval ship in an International Waters is Crime.

Whereas while PN ships travel to Bangladesh there is no International water belt as such. Even before entering in Myanmarise waters the PN has to go through the Indian Waters.

Also let me enlight you with the fact that before 1971 when the PN use to travel to Bangladesh they use to get fuel in Lanka.

I don't see that possibility now. Tell me if you know any Nuke Powered PN vessel.

PN can go further to Indonesian waters; then enter the Myanmarise waters and go to Bangladeshi waters but that will take tooooooo long time.

Miroslav what sacred about Karachi?? Why will Pakistan receive its imports from Karachi when it has been blockaded since Gwadar has been developed?

Are you trying to lecture an IAF officer from Fiji????

Apart from that part let me tell you that you have to compromise with the fact that I can tell/disclose and Prove you and other members everything.

The fact that Mig-29K or Harriers are more bloodthirsty is irrelevant. It is not Pakistan that will be sending surface vessels to blockade Indian ports but rather Indian surface vessels will be blockading Pakistani ones. 

B'Coz geography and distance is not into the favor of PN.

Therefore Pakistani planes will find it much easier in target acquisition than their Indian counterparts because of distance.

IAF/IN has a dedicated fleet for the maritime role. They will be covering the asses of the IN surface and Submarine Fleet from the PAF Mirages and other ASW aircrafts.

I forgot to mention the IAF Jaguar-IM last time. A dedicated squadron of them is based at Lohegaon-Pune for Maritime Strike Role.

Also not to forget that all MiG-29's/Harriers and Jaguars can be refuelled in air.

IAF has 6 tankers already and 6 more on order.

If you wish I can specify the avionics and Weapons of tghe above planes.

Mirage-III/V and even JF-17 against the MiG-29K have less chances.

and I am yet to take an account of Mirage-2000 H and Su-30 MKI of IAF.

Lets not talk about the 200 MRCA's projected as of now.

We have a lot of options.

Thanks,

Miro

 

[sigatoka]

Miro how does the fact that I reside in Fiji, Pakistan, Australia or Alaska have anything to do with the quality of my argument??

And u still didnt address the point, why would Pakistan receive its imports in a zombie like fashion from Karachi port in a conflict when Gwadar has been developed.

 

[miroslav]

Originally posted by sigatoka@Dec 5 2005, 10:54 AM
And u still didnt address the point, why would Pakistan receive its imports in a zombie like fashion from Karachi port in a conflict when Gwadar has been developed.

[post=4415]Quoted post[/post]​

What I can assure you is that the Indian Navy is having a capability to Block and or Destroy both Gwadar and Karachi if there is a political willing from GOI.

Thats just me.

Miro how does the fact that I reside in Fiji, Pakistan, Australia or Alaska have anything to do with the quality of my argument??

I was reffering to the ground realities.

Since I am from your opposite side I am having knowledge of some facts that you probably don't have.

and as I said I can't prove you everything.

Nothing Personal.

Miro

 

[miroslav]

Originally posted by sigatoka@Dec 2 2005, 04:06 PM
Miroslav bangladesh could give Pakitan the right to use ports and its waters but in a conflict such agreement would be useless. Pakistani vessels would not be allowed to travel to Bangladesh.

[post=4210]Quoted post[/post]​

Last time when we were attacked by two sides our enemy lost 2 Surface Warships and one Submarine.

Both Karachi and Chittagong were pounded by IN/IAF and PN lost more than 500 men.

In return we just lost INS Khukri.

Be our guest this time again.

Also dont forget to compare the PN and IN in 1971 and today.

For referance you can see and feel the current IN might.

Click Here

I just hope you are aware of the current scenario of PN and Bangladesh Navy as well with whom you are dreaming to defeat the IN.

Man what an ally????? If you would have talked lending something from PLAN or USN I would have thoght seriously for once.

Thanks,

Miro

 

[sigatoka]

Miro, you misunderstood what I was attempting to explain. In the quote I was trying to say that although India has agreement with Iran to use their waters, such agreements hold little relevance in conflicts. For e.g. while Pakistan might have an agreement with Bangladesh to use their waters, it will not be able to do so in a conflict.

Likewise India in relation to Iranian waters.

India's navy is rapidly developing and there can be no doubt about it. That doesn't assure India of being able to blockade Pakistan.

Pakistan will never send it's navy to confront the Indian navy in neurtral open waters let alone in Indian waters. Naval combat will always occur in Pakistani waters where Pakistan can also call upon planes and ground based anti-ship cruise missiles.

 

[miroslav]

Originally posted by sigatoka@Dec 6 2005, 09:36 AM
Pakistan will never send it's navy to confront the Indian navy in neurtral open waters let alone in Indian waters. Naval combat will always occur in Pakistani waters where Pakistan can also call upon planes and ground based anti-ship cruise missiles.

[post=4463]Quoted post[/post]​

See that is my whole point.

At this time PN and PAF has a lot of can be and ould be.

Likewise you said Pakistan can call upon air support.

Mate this is where the IN has an advantage. They have harriers, will have MiG-29K by 2007 and there is an IAF dedicated Jaguar-IM squadron for maritime support.

IAF's involvement in naval war depends on the year and availability of planes.

For example If it occur in 2006 IAF may divert few Mirage-2000 coz the navy dosent have MiG-29K.

Where as PAF/PN has no options. Most of the PAF planes will be engaged with IAF due to their short numbers and IAF won't let the planes like F-16 go to the shore.

Likewise who knows if Mirages of PAF can even perform the maritime duties.

Coming back to the topic I personally feel that IN won't go for any blokade this time. In 71 the story was different.

Instead IN will try to damage the PN at maximum and paralize the Pakistani fleet to down the morale of Pakistani Military coz one the PN is no longer can defend Karachi or Gwadar the IN can mobilize the IA land troops in the huge (both in size and numbers) IN vessels.

Obviously PA will be diverted to protect the land from the shore as well.

This is just my own theory.

Miro

 

[EagleEyes]

Dont you think PN will be firing Babur cruise missiles, Harpoons, and the list goes on. Babur has a range of 500 KM, if IN gets too close to PN ports (highly doubt) even land version of Babur will work. Note even though the naval version of Babur is not developed, the version of land platform can still be used, firing from the ports.

 

[miroslav]

Originally posted by WebMaster@Dec 7 2005, 01:58 AM
Dont you think PN will be firing Babur cruise missiles, Harpoons, and the list goes on. Babur has a range of 500 KM, if IN gets too close to PN ports (highly doubt) even land version of Babur will work. Note even though the naval version of Babur is not developed, the version of land platform can still be used, firing from the ports.

[post=4526]Quoted post[/post]​

Coming back to the topic I personally feel that IN won't go for any blokade this time. In 71 the story was different.

Instead IN will try to damage the PN at maximum and paralize the Pakistani fleet to down the morale of Pakistani Military coz one the PN is no longer can defend Karachi or Gwadar the IN can mobilize the IA land troops in the huge (both in size and numbers) IN vessels.

As I said IN will destroy the cover of PN ships for Karachi and Gwadar and then the IAF/IN will pound the land installations before the IN can deploy the men on the Pakistani soil. Pounding the Pakistani coast leaves a least chance of Babur threat.

Also don't forget. Land based Babur needs guidence from the air.

Say a P-3C/Heli or Satelite. It cannot find and lock the IN vessels without it.

Harpoon needs to be fire from P-3C Orion and the IN fleet will be well covered in the air, so P-3C dossent stand a chance in front of IN/IAF air cover.

Exocet will be fired from Mirage-III/V. Harriers are aware of this. No wonder they are now upgraded with Derby BVRAAM. MiG-29K weaponary is not specified yet so let's not talk aboout it.

I am aware of Rose upgrade but still PAF Mirages are 25 year old or so. Chances against Harriers and MiG-29K are less.

Also I am not counting any other IAF jets like Flankers/Fulcrums and Vajra's.

Regards,

Miro

 

[Das Reich]

What about good old minelaying could the Indians just choke all supply lines by offensive minelaying w/o risking any valuable naval assests?

 

[Zeeshan S.]

Miro i know no doubt about Indian Navy how much stronger it is that Pakistani Navy, considering the quality and quantity of it.

PONDICHERRY {NATYA 1} CLASS Ocean Minesweepers

INS Pondicherry M61 (02 February 1978)
INS Porbandar M62 (19 December 1978)
INS Bedi M63 (27 April 1979)
INS Bhavnagar M64 (27 April 1979)
INS Alleppey M65 (10 June 1980)
INS Ratnagiri M66 (10 June 1980)
INS Karwar M67 (14 July 1986)
INS Cannanore M68 (17 December 1987)
INS Cuddalore M69 (29 October 1987)
INS Kakinanda M70 (23 December 1986)
INS Kozhikode M71 (19 December 1988)
INS Konkan M72 (08 October 1988)

Though it might seem a long list, but in my opinion not long enough. There is a vast area that needs to be protected by Indian Navy depending on the threat. If its BN, PN, SN its a peice of cake but what happens if its USN, or PLAN! More build up is needed for INS to protect its coasts.

BTW: If IN has 13~ mine vessels, i am sure PN has some where around 4-6.

EDIT: If i am wrong please let me know the exact or estimated numbers of mine sweepers of IN.

 

[Das Reich]

That is my point the indians dont need to be scared of any pak mines.
But the Indian subs(foxtrots-44mines each) and patrol planes(Bears-12 mines each)can lay mines in the karachi and Gwader harbours that will paralyize the pak economy [I dont think the IN has specialized minelayers and even if they do have it I dont think it will be quite useful so close to Pak shoreline withen range of cruise missiles and aircrafts]
This is a much cheaper and effective way of a close blockade than risking naval vessels(which can be used for a distant blockade)


PN only has three minehunters they can be easily destroyed by airstrikes after that there is very little PN can do to clear these harbours