NATO Attacks Pakistani Check-post

[Irfan Baloch]

@ Chogy, Solomon2
thanks for showing us the mirror
although you didn’t have to respond to irrelevant posts, we agree at least that this topic has been talked to death.

I hope that Pakistani leadership comes clean and tells the nation that the drone strikes are the result of combined effort as far as the helicopter shooting is concerned I hope they will be avoided

 

[S-2]

"...Freedom, that notion that you have forgotten, is something that is becoming dearer and dearer to us now."

Hopefully it'll become a dear reality to those thousands of Pakistani disappeared languishing in your prisons.

There's a reason we've rendited to Pakistan. No prisons are more brutal. No citizenry less safe from being whisked off the street. A fact of life to which your countrymen are so comfortable that during this arab spring where thousands of arabs have taken to the streets demanding their basic civil rights there's been not a peep from within Pakistan against your militar...errr, sorry (slip of the phrase) government.

Travelling to the STATES again anytime soon, Asim? Notice how many of your fellow citizens here CHOOSE to languish in our society making a living from our broke economy?

Can you imagine were I to emigrate to Pakistan and publically denounce your government as A.M. and others here do from within America? A white guy in Pakistan-by choice?! That, by itself, says it all. Not wanted? We'd be killed. Just that fcukin' simple. You guys would be buying tickets to be the first to whack a yank on your street.

Ain't happenin' to those brothers and sisters of your's in the west. If so, they'd leave-in droves.

So STFU. You're welcome to question whether we landed on the moon, twin towers blew up from terrorist-directed airliners, OBL killed by U.S. Navy SEALs penetrating your airspace and leaving undetected. That's your business but goes far to explain why you're PAKISTAN...and America's sending CHALLENGER into space with a $2B physics experiment.

 

[Abu Basit]

So tell us of your plan to collect taxes from Pakistanis once U.S. aid is cut off.

Plan or no plan, what this got to do with you and please get this in your heads that your so called 'aid is for the ruling elite so they can watch out for your interests and do all your dirty work.

 

[S-2]

"...please get this in your heads that your so called 'aid is for the ruling elite so they can watch out for your interests and do all your dirty work."

No, Abu Basit. You get it in YOUR HEAD that there's not a damned thing you can do to stop that aid. Our choice. Our decision. Hopefully my government will decide trying to help those incapable of helping themselves is a waste of money and effort.

Want to stop it though? Throw out your government, party leaders and ruling military clique.

THAT's something Pakistanis can do. Then, take it one step further and declare an Islamic state at war with Afghanistan and America.

Do the right and manly thing instead of sitting behind a computer wailing about America using the Pakistani reality to protect our interests. Change that reality.

Or...commit to democracy, await elections and do a MUCH better job of identifying real candidates and electing them.

Either way your fault if you don't care enough to change the prevailing paradigm.

Thanks.

 

[53fd]

"...please get this in your heads that your so called 'aid is for the ruling elite so they can watch out for your interests and do all your dirty work."

No, Abu Basit. You get it in YOUR HEAD that there's not a damned thing you can do to stop that aid. Our choice. Our decision. Hopefully my government will decide trying to help those incapable of helping themselves is a waste of money and effort.

Want to stop it though? Throw out your government, party leaders and ruling military clique.

THAT's something Pakistanis can do. Then, take it one step further and declare an Islamic state at war with Afghanistan and America.

Do the right and manly thing instead of sitting behind a computer wailing about America using the Pakistani reality to protect our interests. Change that reality.

Or...commit to democracy, await elections and do a MUCH better job of identifying real candidates and electing them.

Either way your fault if you don't care enough to change the prevailing paradigm.

Thanks.

Calm down sir

Pakistan is already committed to the democratic system, it's just a 'sold out' one. And aren't senators here talking about withdrawing the aid package for Pakistan? The parliamentarians & senators in Pakistan are saying the same thing. The war is getting too expensive for America as it is (spending $2 million a week in Afghanistan), with nothing to show for it. Pakistan has been the 'Islamic Republic of Pakistan' since 1956, so I don't know what you're talking about when you say this "declare an Islamic state at war". I don't think it's fair to say that Pakistan is at a war with Afghanistan or Pakistan, after all, most of the groups that are targeting the Afghan leadership are Afghan nationals. And I don't think it helps when Karzai says the US should stop killing innocent civilians & leave the region. Why would the Afghan guards in Kandahar let 500+ Taliban escape just like that if they felt the US was on Afghanistan's side? There's nothing a damned thing either of us can do sitting here on this forum, so let's just see what happens. I suggest you don't invest your emotions too much on this forum. Anyways. Cheers.

 

[S-2]

"Pakistan is already committed to the democratic system, it's just a 'sold out' one..."

It is. Change it. Again and again as necessary. It's a process not born overnight. Indians struggle with corruption. CAR is as corrupt as can be. Afghanistan...obviously. Russians fight it incessantly. Even the west and America aren't immune.

Surely, though, Pakistani communities possess smart, honest, capable men and women who'd devote themselves to public service with no expectation of riches to automatically follow.

Identify and cultivate them.

"...And aren't senators here talking about withdrawing the aid package for Pakistan?..."

Absolutely. OTOH, I suspect it'd take very little for American leaders to renew their faith and commitment to Pakistan. Recognize the afghan taliban upon your lands as the spiritual and ideological source of your own insurgency and make war upon them.

All taliban are the same.

Americans and others would take great heart from from such a commitment. The reverberations of such would, frankly, be astounding.

"...The war is getting too expensive for America as it is (spending $2 million a week in Afghanistan), with nothing to show for it..."

Disagree. We haven't shown enough but Afghanistan isn't a completely lost cause nor is our essential commitment morally wrong. "Ways and means" will always be questioned. The "ends" aren't greatly disputed.

"...Pakistan has been the 'Islamic Republic of Pakistan' since 1956..."

It's hardly a theocratic state nor do I wish Pakistan to truly become so. Many here, however, do.

"...I don't think it's fair to say that Pakistan is at a war with Afghanistan or Pakistan, after all, most of the groups that are targeting the Afghan leadership are Afghan nationals..."

Here we differ. Harboring the Afghan taliban on Pakistani lands since late 2001 has made difficult others to imagine otherwise. Providing sanctuary to an ousted and de-legitimized government that continues killing the vast majority of Afghans can easily be construed as an "act of war".

There is geo-political intent behind such. It doesn't happen by accident. Sovereignty is ostensibly widely-cherished at this board yet a foreign Afghan army and leadership reside within your borders with hardly a dissenting peep.

"...And I don't think it helps when Karzai says the US should stop killing innocent civilians & leave the region..."

Does that differ so greatly from a General Kayani publically deriding drones while privately accomodating such?

"...Why would the Afghan guards in Kandahar let 500+ Taliban escape just like that if they felt the US was on Afghanistan's side?..."

Why would Afghan soldiers die in the hundreds while fighting against the taliban too? A young state with a nascent nat'l security force seeks to find its balance in the midst of war. Afghanistan is a place full of contradictions after decades of loyalties twisted this way and that. Singular examples suggesting one thing or that are probably a poor basis from which to draw broad conclusions.

"...There's nothing a damned thing either of us can do sitting here on this forum, so let's just see what happens. I suggest you don't invest your emotions too much on this forum. Anyways. Cheers."

Good, prudent advice.

Thanks.

 

[Solomon2]

Plan or no plan, what this got to do with you

Why go waving red herrings? Aid has nothing to do with me. It has to do with responsible decision-making by Pakistan's policymakers. Corrupt officials only pocket a portion of the aid: the rest goes to support Pakistani consumption and infrastructure. Since it strikes me as unlikely that these will be cut further, Pakistan's policymakers must seek an alternative source of funds.

As China and the IMF seem unwilling, that leaves collecting taxes from a population which has made tax evasion a national pastime. More than that: Pakistan's history suggests that resistance to taxing is the source of several armed revolts from a population that doesn't feel adequately represented, including the original Kashmiri uprising against Indian rule.

Enjoy!

 

[praveen]

Can americans here tell me what is the end game in Afghanistan?I can't see anything viable and sustainable coming out of this current setup

 

[praveen]

and situation.Reading some of the posts here seems to be more and more a quagmire with no viable and sustainable solution in site

 

[pakdefender]

Can americans here tell me what is the end game in Afghanistan?I can't see anything viable and sustainable coming out of this current setup

Im not American but I can tell you this much that you Indians will not be able to hide for too long in Afghanistan under balls of the Americans

 

[praveen]

I can tell you this much that you Indians will not be able to hide for too long in Afghanistan under balls of the Americans

Well my grouse is we wasted a billion dollars in .But for us Indians Abbottabad has released new positive dynamics which we can exploit

 

[pakdefender]

Well my grouse is we wasted a billion dollars in .But for us Indians Abbottabad has released new positive dynamics which we can exploit

You wanted to ride the Americans for your own objectives in Afghanistan and wanted to piggy back their military deployment without committing any military resources yourself so when their military draws down that leaves you exposed
If you were unable to exploit the ‘positive dynamics’ released after the Mumbai attacks then balls all you’ll be able do in the aftermath of the Abbotabad incident

 

[FaujHistorian]

S-2 I agree with your approach as shown in this response. However there are few things that Americans should learn a bit about the region, such as the following:

......
Surely, though, Pakistani communities possess smart, honest, capable men and women who'd devote themselves to public service with no expectation of riches to automatically follow.

Identify and cultivate them.

....:

Pakistanis communities in Pakistan and in the US do have smart, honest, and capable folks.

The problem so far is that most of them are extreme lefties when it comes to their socioeconomic views. Such leftism is not unique to Pakistanis, as we can see that EU and Americans too have lefties in large numbers.

However the difference is that in Pakistan, there is no civilian institution to support right-wing economic agenda.

To make the matters worse, the so-called "right-wing" in Pakistan consists of the religious thugs who would even put the die-hard commies to shame. Even our nation's political grand-daddy Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto ran on the slogan "Islamic-socialism", which was nothing but communism sans Vodka but he added Camel urine lovingly imported from the Arab lands.

as the civilian right-wing in Pakistan does not exist, economic policies are largely anti-industry and anti-business.

PPP being just another commie party, has utterly destroyed our industry thanks to its leftie policies.

As the economy has gone down the gutter, the level of corruption has gone up manifold.

If it was not for the Pak army, we would be "enjoying" our days in the heaven-on-earth places run by Stalin, Mao, castrated castro, and shouting Chavez.

Unfortunately Pak army has limits, when it comes to implementing true-right wing economic policies. Our judges and bureaucrats are ready to blunt such efforts in no time.

And thus we are marooned at the island called poor-corrupt-hama.

..........
"...And aren't senators here talking about withdrawing the aid package for Pakistan?..."

Absolutely. OTOH, I suspect it'd take very little for American leaders to renew their faith and commitment to Pakistan. Recognize the afghan taliban upon your lands as the spiritual and ideological source of your own insurgency and make war upon them.

All taliban are the same.

Americans and others would take great heart from from such a commitment. The reverberations of such would, frankly, be astounding.

........

Thanks.

Americans have become unwitting allies of the ex-commies and pushed aside their biggest and 200+ old ally institution now called Pakistan-army.

I am not sure how many American policy makers even realize that the forefathers of the Pak army men today, were fighting alongside Western troops against Ruskies. If you ever get a chance, talk to the Pak army veterans of wars and see how fondly they remember the likes of Gen. Montgomery, and Claude Achenleck down to the fellow American and British soldiers.

Time for the way back? 1810-1830s.
Place of this fight? Kandhar and Kabul


Then move forward 100 years. The same families and men from Pakistani regions were fighting alongside West-European soldiers.

Time for the way back? WWI, and WWII
Place for this way back? Iraq, Egypt, Tunisia, and Libya


When a few leftie senators and newspapers in the US question the commitment of such group of men, it hurts them, and hurts them deep.

Some of the American senators say they give "Aid" of few million a YEAR to Pak army.

This may sound a lot to a man in the street.

But you probably know that NATO spends this much money in 2+ DAYS in .

These senators must get their heads in the right place and offer 25% of what NATO is spending. Give the Pak army / Pakistan $3 billions a month, pull NATO out, and see how quickly Pak army will pacify Afghan tribes.

NATO would save $7 billion a month, and more importantly precious lives of their troops who are in foreign, and inhospitable land.

The time is now to see that ex-Northern Alliance will never be an ally of the West. They have not been so for the last 200+ years. As soon American soldiers turn their back, they will conspire with Ruskies and stab US soldiers in the back.

American soldiers should not become a pawn in the hands of ex-Northern Alliance. This will not help stabilize Afghanistan. Not even 10 more years.

I hope these senators realize when Ben Fing ladeen talked about the destruction of US forces in Afghanistan, that thug in fact was planning to destroy Pak army first. Once Pak army is fractured, US loses in Afghanistan automatically.

And yet the same senators are unknowingly playing in the hands of Ben Ladeen by squeezing Pak army to the breaking point.


Peace.

 

[S-2]

"...Some of the American senators say they give "Aid" of few million a YEAR to Pak army..."

They'd be wrong, of course. It's in the hundreds of millions of dollars.

"...This may sound a lot to a man in the street..."

It is indeed far more than the Pakistani government has given to us.

"...But you probably know that NATO spends this much money in 2+ DAYS in ..."

What NATO spends exceeds simply military operations. Further, there's the spending of the U.N. and NGOs. Please don't conflate those. Nonetheless, we spend a considerable amount for military operations in Afghanistan.

How about a break there? Pakistan could quit charging tariffs on the transport of supplies across its land. That would reduce costs considerably, especially since auditing those charges is a tenuous proposition at best.

"...These senators must get their heads in the right place and offer 25% of what NATO is spending. Give the Pak army / Pakistan $3 billions a month, pull NATO out, and see how quickly Pak army will pacify Afghan tribes..."

You can't and, worse, won't pacify the afghan "tribes" on your own land. My suspicion is that the Pakistani army leadership would pocket most of the money while assisting the pashtun-dominated Afghan taliban in pacifying the non-pashtu tribes of Afghanistan.

Isn't that the plan anyway?

$36B a year, btw, exceeds your nat'l gross exports by a good $10B. That's a bit rich for my blood given what little you'd actually accomplish.

"...NATO would save $7 billion a month, and more importantly precious lives of their troops who are in foreign, and inhospitable land..."

We haven't fought a war yet on domestic and hospitable lands. We prefer it that way too.

"...The time is now to see that ex-Northern Alliance will never be an ally of the West. They have not been so for the last 200+ years. As soon American soldiers turn their back, they will conspire with Ruskies and stab US soldiers in the back..."

Once we're gone, they'll conspire with the Indians, Russians, and Iranians to stab Pakistani soldiers in the front.

"...American soldiers should not become a pawn in the hands of ex-Northern Alliance. This will not help stabilize Afghanistan. Not even 10 more years..."

FaujHistorian, America has no interest in seeing Afghanistan under Pakistan's thumb via its Afghan pashtun taliban proxies. It's why you'll likely receive less than more. As it is, your army is undeserving.

Your soldiers fight well and hard on behalf of Pakistan while attempting to rid your soil of the Pakistani pashtun taliban. Unlike many here who deride the fighting qualities of my army and marines, I'll never debase those Pakistani soldiers.

Nonetheless, not one of them have fought against the Afghan taliban upon your soil. Not one. Not ever. This is understandable as its the intent of your generals to point Pashtun nationalist aspirations AWAY from Pakistan's Punjab and at Afghanistan. To that end, you've enlisted the Afghan taliban in 1994 and retained them since-to this day.

They are, bluntly, America's enemy. They should also be YOUR enemy. They proved recalcitrant as a government. Recall that there was no settlement of the Durand Line under their administration. Recall too that your own pashtun taliban learned their lessons sitting at the knee of their Afghan taliban masters.

Northern alliance? Naturally you fear them. We don't. It is with their help that we threw Omar out of Afghanistan on his azz. It is with your help that he SITS on his azz in Quetta.

Are we really at war? Actually, yes, of course we are...or should be. Your objectives are diametrically opposed to the rest of mankind. Mankind, FaujHistorian. Nobody accepts anything but a pluralistic, multi-ethnic Afghan state except Pakistan.

My personal hope is that you win. Yup. Have your way with our withdrawal. Of course, you actually won't entirely. There'll be endless civil war fueled by the Afghan tajiks, uzbeks, hazara, baloch and turkomen along with the Indians, Russians and Iranians. Your own pashtun Pakistani taliban won't disappear as they'll feed at the breast of their Afghan mother and make war upon you as they already do.

We'll be gone, our money will be gone and your hope for a better brighter life will be too.

That's the future. Trust me.

 

[Meengla]

@S-2,
I will agree you that there is no 'victory' in Afghanistan for anyone. Even if Americans are able to crush the Talibans today then, unless there is a just power sharing with the Pashtuns, the problems will continue. Similarly, the other ethnic groups cannot be discounted and they will fight, backed by others, if the Talibans win.
So what needs to be done then? The only thing that can work is stabilizing Afghanistan were all major ethnic groups share power, backed by international help. And no more proxy wars, especially between India and Pakistan, in Afghanistan. And absolutely no tolerance of Al-Qaida. They need to get the hell of out of this region.

PS. You kid yourself if you think that only Americans enjoy 'freedom' of expression. In Pakistan you can say and do just as much, against anyone. Just don't do any Blasphemy. There are too many nutjobs for that inside Pakistan.