Nation’s honor not to be traded for prosperity: Kayani

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Too little too late IMO and for the gallery perhaps ?

Even playing to the gallery has its uses - just look at the popularity ratings of the military vs Zardari.

And what is stopping Zardari from 'playing to the gallery'?

Typically 'playing to the gallery' is what politicians do best, since it does not involve them actually 'doing' anything.

Our politicians are apparently so incompetent that they can't even make speeches to gain public support, even if the speeches are completely insincere and filled with false promises and bravado.

Why blame the Army for this utter incompetence on the part of the political leadership?

 

[ramu]

1. The politicians for doing such a miserable job that the people are looking to General's (why can't the politicians at least given similar speeches?)
2. The fault of the people for not having faith in the democratic system and not voting for different candidates in the elections, or not voting at all.

Why blame the general for 'making a speech'? That is just silly.

No one stopped him from making the speech and surely no one stopped the politicians. All that was pointed out was the hallow nature of the speech with nothing substantial (instances or actions in favour of CoAS).

Consider the strategic dialogue with USof A. General saab was part of it. Nothing substantial came out but for CoAS asking for an India like nuclear deal. Is that what Pakistan really want ? Will that re-establish the honour of Pakistan to a state of pre 9/11? No.

CoAS should start working his power in favour of prosperity of the nation atleast when he knows that his hands are tied to act against the interest of USA. He may have done lots of things covertly to make the life of US very difficult but how has that helped Pakistan in honour or with its prosperity?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

However, is Pakistan so weak to let CIA have a parallel to ISI to an extent that they are emboldened to say they do not need intelligence from ISI for the drone strikes.

If they don't, then why have the drones strikes dropped so dramatically?

Secondly, between the ISI and the Taliban targeting and hunting them, how long will their HUMINT assets actually be able to survive, let alone perform as intended?

Two facts come out of this.

1. This allows them to strike at will at targets that they consider as threat without the permission of Pakistan.
2. It is a blow to ISI, clearly with two lions in a den.

In the history of Pakistan, no one has challenged ISI as much as challenges up against it in the last 3 months.

Their strength remains in the SIGINT domain and the Predator and Reaper surveillance capabilities, not HUMINT. Their current HUMINT strength is only because the ISI was cooperating with them and not actively engaging in counter-intelligence operations against CIA assets. I would argue that the current dramatic drop in drone strikes indicates that the ISI has been able to bring about significant pressure to bear on the CIA's HUMINT resources, and can continue to do so.

 

[Rana4pak]

YouTube - COAS Ashfaq Pervez Kayani Adress at Youm-e-Shuhada Ceremony (30/4/2011)

 

[praveen]

AM all this means a coup?Or brinkmanship saying petraeus becoming CIA chief means let k-l bill go to hell and there will be a coup.the military reems to be in a spot lately

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

All that was pointed out was the allow nature of the speech with nothing substantial instances or actions in favour of CoAS.

I believe that POV has been countered.

Consider the strategic dialogue with USof A. General saab was part of it. Nothing substantial came out but for CoAS asking for an India like nuclear deal. Is that what Pakistan really want ? Will that re-establish the honour of Pakistan to a state of pre 9/11? No.

And does a 'strategic dialog' simply result in one side or the other getting all they want in an instance? There is a reason it is called a 'dialog' after all. The whole point is to engage in negotiations for each party to achieve what they are looking for. That nothing significant came of the dialog with the US reflects poorly on the US and its intentions towards Pakistan. It indicates that the US has never seen the US-Pak relationship beyond a transactional one. There is nothing Kiyani, or anyone else, can do to change such a duplicitous mindset and double standards on the part of the US.

CoAS should start working his power in favour of prosperity of the nation atleast when he knows that his hands are tied to act against the interest of USA.

That requires political and economic reforms, which the COAS cannot undertake without a military coup. The nation's prosperity is in the hands of the political leadership at the moment.

He may have done lots of things covertly to make the life of US very difficult but how has that helped Pakistan in honour or with its prosperity?

In reducing the drone attacks and working to eliminate them entirely, as well as working to eliminate CIA covert operations in Pakistan, he has delivered on 'helping Pakistan with its honor' and standing up for its 'sovereignty', as he has in leading the military in attacking and defeating the various terrorist militias in the North West.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

AM all this means a coup?Or brinkmanship saying petraeus becoming CIA chief means let k-l bill go to hell and there will be a coup.the military reems to be in a spot lately

Good cop - bad cop.

At the end of the day, neither the US nor Pakistan want things to escalate beyond control.

Pakistan is laying out what it wants, and the US is laying out what it wants (ops in NW).

 

[praveen]

but there is a only a point beyond which the escalation can be controlled right .What if the US is hell bent on her demands,from what I can see they are deteqmined

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

What if the US is hell bent on her demands,from what I can see they are deteqmined

So what if they are determined? What can they do?

Escalation completely defeats the goals they are trying to achieve.

Escalation is not going to make it any easier to defeat the Taliban or AQ, it is only going to make them more enemies and create conditions favorable for the groups they are trying to create 'unfavorable conditions' for.

 

[praveen]

well you guys are refusing to drone the afghan taliban as bilal haider stated in another thread while the TTP was droned .this already defeats the purpnre isn't it.W

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

well you guys are refusing to drone the afghan taliban as bilal haider stated in another thread while the TTP was droned .this already defeats the purpnre isn't it.W

No - since NW is a tiny piece of real estate and Pakistani military operations have improved the security situation in the rest of FATA and Swat significantly, for both Pakistan and the US. Regardless of US propaganda, NW is not by any means critical to US objectives (whatever they be in the context of 'stability') in Afghanistan. US failure in Afghanistan will be solely their own doing through a myriad flawed policies.

'Escalation' would reverse most of that.

 

[praveen]

I don't see how kayani will come out of this without conceding to the US

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I don't see how kayani will come out of this without conceding to the US

I don't see how Kiyani can survive as COAS after this (WRT to support from his fellow commanders) without the US conceding to Pakistan on some issues.

Again, neither side really has anything to gain from 'escalation'.

 

[Kaniska]

So what if they are determined? What can they do?

Escalation completely defeats the goals they are trying to achieve.

Escalation is not going to make it any easier to defeat the Taliban or AQ, it is only going to make them more enemies and create conditions favorable for the groups they are trying to create 'unfavorable conditions' for.

Sometimes i get a feeling that everyone is playing their own game...and may be the main objective is different what every one shows off.
I feel that may be neither US nor Pak is interested to do anything to Taliban...because Taliban...terrorism is like a golden goose for Pakistan...It can mint money from rich nation with a fear that terrorist will be created from tribal areas unless it is supported with finance and military wise....And USA need some reason to stay with its military in Afghanistan..so what can be a better reason to stay than wit a reason that they are stabilizing afghan and eliminating terrorist from Pakistan and Afghanistan...

 

[praveen]

AM however you spin it.This is what happened and no wonder they are mighty pissed of and petraeus becoming CIA chief is one of the conrequence