NA bars Hindu lawmaker from presenting bill seeking ban on alcohol

[M. Sarmad]

... Why not counter it?

Counter what??
You don't even have an argument
You're just trolling

 

[El Sidd]

Counter what??
You don't even have an argument
You're just trolling

Sure.

 

[Metanoia]

@M. Sarmad What is your opinion on Ali Shariati, if you're aware about him?

 

[M. Sarmad]

@M. Sarmad What is your opinion on Ali Shariati, if you're aware about him?

Absolute genius; the Islamist Marxist intellectual behind the Iranian Revolution, an inspiration for many. He fell victim to the rivalry between Najaf and Qum. I fully agree with him that true Shiaism was the Red Shiaism; the religion of martyrs which was turned into Black Shiaism; the religion of mourners, by the Safavids

My views:

Brother I have been studying him for a while , This man was a genius . His critics say that he did not create any new theological or philosophical ideas of his own . He just tried to mix already existing philosophies of existentialism with religion and socialism .But the fact is that He never claimed to be a philosopher , he was a mentor , an activist , who loved and cared for his countrymen . Some times he is fundamentalist , some times he is sufi , His strong criticism of clergy is justified . Men like him are born very rarely . His intellect served as the motor that generated the greatest revolution of our times , no wonder why the SAVAK killed this great man .

I came to know that he and his followers were disowned by Khamein`s regime . Really sad . I fully agree with him that true shiaism was the red shiaism ; the religion of martyrs which was turned into black shiaism ; the religion of mourners by the Saffavids . May be he fell victim to the rivalry between Najaf & Qum . I really respect the man . May Allah accept his efforts

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/iranian-chill-thread.283137/page-472#post-5167553
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/iranian-chill-thread.283137/page-472#post-5167713
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/best-way-to-implement-sharia-in-pakistan.321881/page-29#post-5879009

 

[Metanoia]

Absolute genius; the Islamist Marxist intellectual behind the Iranian Revolution, an inspiration for many. He fell victim to the rivalry between Najaf and Qum. I fully agree with him that true Shiaism was the Red Shiaism; the religion of martyrs which was turned into Black Shiaism; the religion of mourners, by the Safavids

My views:




https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/iranian-chill-thread.283137/page-472#post-5167553
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/iranian-chill-thread.283137/page-472#post-5167713
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/best-way-to-implement-sharia-in-pakistan.321881/page-29#post-5879009

Did you get the chance to read Red Shi'ism vs. Black Shi'ism?

 

[krash]

Before acting all smart

I don't need to act. I am smart.

you should know that the bill in question was proposed by a Hindu Law maker, so their is no question of Muslims stopping Hindu's from drinking.

Proposed by a Hindu medical practitioner (not law maker) to be voted by Muslims and forced upon Christians, Sikhs, Parsis, Jews and Animists of Pakistan. Brilliant.

However, my argument was against the reasoning many here have given that since we are a 'Muslim State' we should not allow our minorities to drink either.

If you want to debate the ban free from the Islamic take on alcohol, let me know. There is historical data in that case.

But please pick a premise and follow it.

Secondly Hinduism and Christianity both discourage the use of alcohol.

Not all of them. They certainly don't ban it. According to most Christian schools of thought, Jesus (A.S) shared wine with his apostles many times. Goes to show again why you being a Muslim should not be left to decide what should or should not be banned for your minorities. You don't even know what your own Islamic laws have to say about it.

And the last point, for your kind information west did try to ban alcohol but it didn't turn out very well for them.
If you don't know then read about the Prohibition period in US from 1920-1933.

So you are trying to support the ban by giving the most stark example of why it should not be enacted?

Also, they did not ban it for religious reasons.

If you and people like you want alcohol to be available easily then do it openly and tell everybody we drink, stop drinking in the name of providing alcohol to non Muslims in Pakistan.

I actually have never had a sip of alcohol. And I didn't need the state to keep it away from me. I was brought up with values. Values that too many in our country don't think they posses. They demand a third party come protect them from themselves. Because they are insecure and not confident about themselves and their beliefs. Still does not mean that they demand that others' rights be taken away. And just because they are insecure and not confident about themselves does not also mean that they indulge in ad hominem.

If I did drink, I wouldn't need to hide it either.

ps: Alcohol is available openly in Pakistan. What you want is another opportunity to subjugate your minorities using your own insecurities and lack of knowledge as a weapon. And no I do not belong to a minority in Pakistan either.

That's what Ramesh Kumar said that under the garb of this law Muslims drink and we are the one's who are blamed.

Ramesh Kumar is a 2-bit politician who isn't loyal to anything, let alone logic or law making. If Muslims drink, it is on them. Muslims still do hashish, cocaine, heroin along with a very many other drugs which are in fact categorically banned for everyone in the country. If Mr. Kumar is sensitive enough to be rattled by being blamed then he definitely chose the wrong line of work.

 

[Salik]

Duh !

So, your basic argument is that the world is the same as it was 14000 years (sic) ago !!
and nothing has changed since the Qur'an was revealed 1400 years ago !!
therefore what was true and applicable thousand years ago (i.e Classic Fiqh) must be applicable today
And anyone who believes otherwise is "indoctrinated" !!

Seriously ???? ..

It is understandable that things have changed in 1400 years. But rationalists had rejected fiqh etc. within 400 years. If it is correct then how will you justify it?

 

[Nefarious]

Alot of Pakistani top ranks like a tipple. Especially military. Engineer friend used to go to such functions. Free flowing.

 

[Peaceful Civilian]

We should legalize Alcohol. If You have Masjid, then bars infront it, Leave it to people & their faith where they go.

 

[M. Sarmad]

It is understandable that things have changed in 1400 years. But rationalists had rejected fiqh etc. within 400 years. If it is correct then how will you justify it?

No, it's not correct....

The history of resistance to Islamic traditionalists by Muslim rationalists can be traced back to the latter half of the first century of Hijra ... The "Qadariyah" were the first ones to challenge traditionalists` doctrine (which defended the actions of Ummayad Caliphs) during the Ummayad Rule ...


Two traditionalists at the forefront of "Anti Rationalist campaign" during the early Abbasid period were Ahmed Bin Hanbal and Ismail Bukhari.

The main reason behind compilation of Hadith Collections (going against the tradition maintained by the first eight generations of Muslims) was "codification of traditional Islam" to counter the rationalists' ideology.

 

[Imran Khan]

is chutiyee ko or koi kam nhi ?

 

[El Sidd]

is chutiyee ko or koi kam nhi ?

Why are you targeting minorities and abusing them on internet forum?

Is it due to religious intolerance, Chauhan?

 

[Salik]

No, it's not correct....

The history of resistance to Islamic traditionalists by Muslim rationalists can be traced back to the latter half of the first century of Hijra ... The "Qadariyah" were the first ones to challenge traditionalists` doctrine (which defended the actions of Ummayad Caliphs) during the Ummayad Rule ...


Two traditionalists at the forefront of "Anti Rationalist campaign" during the early Abbasid period were Ahmed Bin Hanbal and Ismail Bukhari.

The main reason behind compilation of Hadith Collections (going against the tradition maintained by the first eight generations of Muslims) was "codification of traditional Islam" to counter the rationalists' ideology.

Up till industrial revolution things were pretty much the same, moving slowly slowly. So fiqh was also pretty much valid in that period.

Secondly, Hadiths compiled in the life of Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him or eight generations later don't change rationality. Who could be the greatest rationalist than Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him? It is definitely a wrong argument that Hadiths prevent you from being rationalist.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Up till industrial revolution things were pretty much the same, moving slowly slowly. So fiqh was also pretty much valid in that period.

Secondly, Hadiths compiled in the life of Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him or eight generations later don't change rationality. Who could be the greatest rationalist than Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him? It is definitely a wrong argument that Hadiths prevent you from being rationalist.

You need to read up a little on Early Islamic philosophy to understand the subject at hand.

 

[Salik]

You need to read up a little on Early Islamic philosophy to understand the subject at hand.

Ok. Recommend a source please, I will try to read.

One thing I want to know here. Was Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him a rationalist or a traditionalist by nature?