N-capable sub-launched missile operationalised, India in select triad club

[amardeep mishra]

Tch tch, as always, being a bookworm. Maybe this will tell you something:
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/k-4-...test-on-january-31.473925/page-4#post-9138359

Hi @The Deterrent
What has been explained in the thread above pertains to the procedure of launching AShCMs. And I do not disagree with that, it is more or less similar to how Brahmos is launched(with minor differences ofcourse!).
The cold war era soviet cruise missiles, I remember reading a de-classified pentagon report from late 70s early 80s talking about soviet AShMs, I will have to find it out on my system. I will share it here as well if time permits. The tactics used by soviets was to launch the AsHCM in a pre-defined direction and then, a naval aircraft would guide it close enough to the target before their own active seekers kick in. Now theoretically it is possible to launch Babur in a pre-defined direction thanks to modern magnetometers and once it is in air, the aircraft can guide it to it's target. But for that to happen few things are essential-
(1) The CM should have atleast a one way data link.
(2) The CM should have some sort of terminal guidance scheme to discriminate the target.
(3) There should be a dedicated naval aircraft in PN's inventory to provide guidance to the CM.
* Note here guidance referes to the point in space where the CM is supposed to reach using PN-guidance strategy. This point can be either obtained by onboard seekers or can be fed externally from an external platform. The line of sight is made constant all the time by lateral acceleration that is achieved by firing the control commands to actuate the control surfaces. This scheme is acceleration guided, as in the lateral acceleration meets the demand on line of sight angle.
Now it is unknown if either or all of the points mentioned above are true for Pakistan.
In general though, the land attack cruise missiles(like Tomhawk, Nirbhay or other CMs) are not acceleration guided but are spatially guided, i.e they are guided by a set of way points that are pre-defined. The deviation from these way points is translated into desired euler angles that the CM must meet in order to follow the way points. In this case, the initial way point and the final way points are very essential. The former is the location of the launching platform and the latter is the target.

 

[AUz]

Great! So where is Muslim nuclear sub?

"Muslim" nuclear sub?

You do realize india is not ever compared to global Islamic World because india is too irrelevant, small, restricted, shitty, and powerless compared to the combined global weight of Islam---that dominates landscapes and cultures globally across multiple continents while poor india is not even complete self of its previous self, as it was divided and contained within the useless gigantic plains with no hopes of ever attaining any global, multi-continental civilizational presence enjoyed ONLY by two civilizations in recorded history ever (as stated by famous Historian Bernard Lewis)

1- Islamic Civilization
2- European Christendom/West

So your correct question should be "Where's the Pakistani nuclear sub".....bc it is in that reference we are talking about and not "Muslim" vs "Hindu" of today's global landscape (Global Islam vs india would be as unfair of a comparison as saying U.S vs Congo in technological breakthroughs comparison )

So in terms of where's Pakistani nuclear sub

Well here's a starter:

We don't need nuclear submarine to be able to have a credible second-strike capability vis-a-vis india. Nuclear-armed AIP submarines will do the job just fine. And that, we will have 11 by 2028....all armed with tens of nuclear cruise missiles....enough to turn indian coastal urban centers into rust of red smoke, if the need ever arises

 

[The Deterrent]

Hi @The Deterrent
What has been explained in the thread above pertains to the procedure of launching AShCMs. And I do not disagree with that, it is more or less similar to how Brahmos is launched(with minor differences ofcourse!).
The cold war era soviet cruise missiles, I remember reading a de-classified pentagon report from late 70s early 80s talking about soviet AShMs, I will have to find it out on my system. I will share it here as well if time permits. The tactics used by soviets was to launch the AsHCM in a pre-defined direction and then, a naval aircraft would guide it close enough to the target before their own active seekers kick in. Now theoretically it is possible to launch Babur in a pre-defined direction thanks to modern magnetometers and once it is in air, the aircraft can guide it to it's target. But for that to happen few things are essential-
(1) The CM should have atleast a one way data link.
(2) The CM should have some sort of terminal guidance scheme to discriminate the target.
(3) There should be a dedicated naval aircraft in PN's inventory to provide guidance to the CM.
* Note here guidance referes to the point in space where the CM is supposed to reach using PN-guidance strategy. This point can be either obtained by onboard seekers or can be fed externally from an external platform. The line of sight is made constant all the time by lateral acceleration that is achieved by firing the control commands to actuate the control surfaces. This scheme is acceleration guided, as in the lateral acceleration meets the demand on line of sight angle.
Now it is unknown if either or all of the points mentioned above are true for Pakistan.
In general though, the land attack cruise missiles(like Tomhawk, Nirbhay or other CMs) are not acceleration guided but are spatially guided, i.e they are guided by a set of way points that are pre-defined. The deviation from these way points is translated into desired euler angles that the CM must meet in order to follow the way points. In this case, the initial way point and the final way points are very essential. The former is the location of the launching platform and the latter is the target.

1. No modern CM is made without a datalink. Not only a two-way datalink essential for telemetry, a simple one-way datalink is a basic requirement for a nuclear CM to abort the flight.
2. Babur has had DSMAC since more than a decade for surface target recognition. Recently, Harbah AShCM (a variant of Babur-2) was tested which has an anti-ship seeker. But I don't see how that matters. The real problem here is mid-course guidance, for which Babur has TERCOM/TERPROM + INS + GPS. 'Theoretically', all Babur needs to know is its own launch point, the planned way-points and impact point...it doesn't needs to be actively guided to the target.
3. Plenty of airborne assets are available for that purpose.

So essentially, you agree that this is one of the ways to bypass the CMS (however its not the way Pakistan does it, nevertheless its quite similar). Now I wonder what you have to say about your earlier statement:

Yeah of course, unless and until French are not actively involved in (1) Modifying, (2) Certifying the source code of CMS of Agosta-90B, not even Chinese can mount their cruise missiles on French submarine. Perhaps you've no idea how it all works, or maybe the laws and regulations are different in Pakistan?

Perhaps it is you who needs to learn something in the industry besides reading research papers all day and trying to impress noobs with technical jargon.

 

[amardeep mishra]

Perhaps it is you who needs to learn something in the industry besides reading research papers all day and trying to impress noobs with technical jargon.

Hi @The Deterrent
Let's just assume I know a lot more than what I write here or have liberty to write. I was under assumption that Babur , just like Tomhawk or Nirbhay are guided by GPS over sea.
Also for DSMAC, I've never seen either a thermal camera or ordinary camera mounted on the nose of Babur. Maybe you can illustrate with a picture?
As for reading research papers, it is the task I love so much, apart from hobby electronics and UAVs. Without an in-depth knowledge and understanding of the stuff you simply can't publish a paper at top notch journals like AIAA etc.

 

[amardeep mishra]

Theoretically', all Babur needs to know is its own launch point, the planned way-points and impact point...it doesn't needs to be actively guided to the target.

The launch point of babur happens to be the coordinates of the platform when the babur is launched. In order to feed planned way points to the CM you do need to interface the CM with the mission planner which happens to be the integral part of combat management system.

 

[The Deterrent]

Hi @The Deterrent
Let's just assume I know a lot more than what I write here or have liberty to write.

Right, and for some reason you believe that you are exclusive to this "assumption". Others are of course mere peasants for you, for whom you have reserved the "research paper/published work/show me evidence" BS.

Also for DSMAC, I've never seen either a thermal camera or ordinary camera mounted on the nose of Babur. Maybe you can illustrate with a picture?

No high-res photos of the underside of Babur are available (okay this sounds funny ).
Anyways, if you want an official source, Dr. Mand said that back in 2005 that it has 5 cameras onboard. You obviously don't think that Pakistan can claim DSMAC aboard Babur/Ra'ad for a decade, without a camera...do you?

As for reading research papers, it is the task I love so much, apart from hobby electronics and UAVs. Without an in-depth knowledge and understanding of the stuff you simply can't publish a paper at top notch journals like AIAA etc.

Perhaps you haven't quite understood my previous remarks, which were a bit sarcastic in nature. Allow me to rephrase in simpler words:

I. DON'T. CARE.

The launch point of babur happens to be the coordinates of the platform when the babur is launched. In order to feed planned way points to the CM you do need to interface the CM with the mission planner which happens to be the integral part of combat management system.

Nope, you don't. CMS can be bypassed, with another way just like the one discussed above. Sadly nobody is at liberty to describe that to you. But of course you understand that, since you're in a "similar" situation.

Now that your sad little tushy has been blessed with my answers, I hope you won't bring up the Combat Management System BS again. By the way, still waiting for you to prove he fake launch. Should I wait no more or do you need to do some "research" on that?

 

[Sharky]

I have been saying this for an long time. Indian should move its military focus China centric. We should just stop developing stuff based on the western neighbour. Our capabilities are at par or in many cases overtaken them long time back. They are a distraction set up in by the chinese who are the real snake inthe backyard. Stop giving attention to the west and concentrate on the eastern front.

 

[JamD]

Right, and for some reason you believe that you are exclusive to this "assumption". Others are of course mere peasants for you, for whom you have reserved the "research paper/published work/show me evidence" BS.

No high-res photos of the underside of Babur are available (okay this sounds funny ).
Anyways, if you want an official source, Dr. Mand said that back in 2005 that it has 5 cameras onboard. You obviously don't think that Pakistan can claim DSMAC aboard Babur/Ra'ad for a decade, without a camera...do you?


Perhaps you haven't quite understood my previous remarks, which were a bit sarcastic in nature. Allow me to rephrase in simpler words:

I. DON'T. CARE.


Nope, you don't. CMS can be bypassed, with another way just like the one discussed above. Sadly nobody is at liberty to describe that to you. But of course you understand that, since you're in a "similar" situation.

Now that your sad little tushy has been blessed with my answers, I hope you won't bring up the Combat Management System BS again. By the way, still waiting for you to prove he fake launch. Should I wait no more or do you need to do some "research" on that?

You are trying to fight mount stupid lol.

 

[The Deterrent]

You are trying to fight mount stupid lol.
View attachment 494321

 

[AUz]

I have been saying this for an long time. Indian should move its military focus China centric. We should just stop developing stuff based on the western neighbour. Our capabilities are at par or in many cases overtaken them long time back. They are a distraction set up in by the chinese who are the real snake inthe backyard. Stop giving attention to the west and concentrate on the eastern front.

China is extremely powerful compared to the backward sh!thole we know as india. indian military was, is, and will ever remain Pakistan-centric no matter how much jargon you fangirls are fed.

Entire strike element of indian military remains pointed towards Pakistan. The entire deployment and arrangement of indian military remains towards “Westwards” direction...I.e, against Pakistan.

indians are extremely aware of the fact that they got conquered and ruled over again and again and again by smaller Muslim forces coming from the Western lands...that’s why you’d never see poor indian military pivot away from Pakistan. No matter what the rhetoric. Situation and deployment on the ground remains the same.

 

[ramu]

China is extremely powerful compared to the backward sh!thole we know as india. indian military was, is, and will ever remain Pakistan-centric no matter how much jargon you fangirls are fed.

Entire strike element of indian military remains pointed towards Pakistan. The entire deployment and arrangement of indian military remains towards “Westwards” direction...I.e, against Pakistan.

indians are extremely aware of the fact that they got conquered and ruled over again and again and again by smaller Muslim forces coming from the Western lands...that’s why you’d never see poor indian military pivot away from Pakistan. No matter what the rhetoric. Situation and deployment on the ground remains the same.

China is more powerful than India and that is not news. It is a mature country with political stability when compared to Pak. Not a bullet fired on Indo China border for 5 decades. Why should we have an army that is China centric?

We have fought many wars with Pak and it terms of a likely war it will be Pak more than China. But army does not build its defences based on intentions but on potential capabilities of all adversaries and countries in its sphere of influence.

Your theory of Mughals and your views that are religion centric is not the way India thinks about foreign and defence policy. Read a few good books and stop recycling from you echo chamber.

 

[My-Analogous]

Sure slaves and dancing boys/girls know everything about Islam?

Only free mind have ability to see others opinion. Slave minds always went to denials mode. On carry on with your denials. I don't feel you worthy to discuss further. Get well soon

 

[My-Analogous]

China is more powerful than India and that is not news. It is a mature country with political stability when compared to Pak. Not a bullet fired on Indo China border for 5 decades. Why should we have an army that is China centric?

We have fought many wars with Pak and it terms of a likely war it will be Pak more than China. But army does not build its defences based on intentions but on potential capabilities of all adversaries and countries in its sphere of influence.

Your theory of Mughals and your views that are religion centric is not the way India thinks about foreign and defence policy. Read a few good books and stop recycling from you echo chamber.

Since 1947 you guys are bully on us. Why Gandhi killed? Who break Pakistan into two? Stop playing innocent girl character.

 

[ramu]

Since 1947 you guys are bully on us. Why Gandhi killed? Who break Pakistan into two? Stop playing innocent girl character.

Since you have talked about Gandhi, understand that Gandhi wanted United India. Jinnah and Nehru both wanted to be heads of state. Gandhi was in favour of Jinnah becoming PM of United India and a section of the society was against it. Now, Jinnah also wanted secular and liberal Pakistan. Where is it? Who killed the Idea of Pakistan?

In 1947, who was the first country to use force to try and occupy J&K?

Breaking Pakistan in to two: yes we did it. On the back of 1965 started by Pak, you reap what you sow. No innocense here and don't be sexist. Even boys can be innocent and you are a living example.

 

[amardeep mishra]

I. DON'T. CARE.

Just like how a lot of Pakistanis don't care? And have such an awesome presence at AIAA or other reputed international aerospace conferences?
Look my friend, I don't know what you do, or what your experience is, but you're mixing two very different guidance schemes into one. First you claimed that Babur can be fired without having to interface it with CMS and to support your argument you showed me a thread where a guy was merely elaborating how it is done. The guy was explaining one strategy used by certain anti ship cruise missiles the gist of which is captured in PN guidance scheme. And I agree, that scheme is what the Soviets used for most of their AshCMs. Now you again reverted back in your comments saying that it needs it's launch point and the desired way points. I wonder how come first you claimed that it is launched in a general direction and then guided by an external aircraft(PN guidance) and then reverted back to saying that "all it needs is it's launching position and set of desired way points" which is essentially a form of spatial guidance.

I pray, you realize both these schemes are as different from each other as chalk is from cheese? For first one you use something known as proportional guidance(PN) wherein you control the lateral acceleration of the missile by actuating the control surfaces(in order to drive line of sight angle constant all the time). In the second guidance scheme- like let's say lookahead guidance scheme, requiring a set of way points, you need to control the Euler angles that result from the deviation from defined way points.
Now your missile can either use PN guidance or some sort of spatial guidance(lookahead etc) and not both. And in former case you don't have to necessarily integrate it with the combat management system as the guidance commands will be relayed to it in flight from an external platform. In latter though, you need to tell the missile what it's launch coordinates are and the set of desired way points leading upto the target and for that you do need to interface it with the CMS. I just hope you're not assuming that every missile is programmed externally prior to sliding it in the tube? The only ways I can think of without having to resort to CMS of sub is-
1) when it is launched in a general direction and guidance commands are relayed to by an external aircraft.
Kindly first search how it is done , convince yourself of how it is actually implemented and challenges associated with each of these strategies and we'll talk. Thanks!