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Mythological Weapons

You could have asked someone more knowledgeable about it.

Its the killing of the asura Iranyakasipu by the Lord Narasimha (lion headed and human bodied) by tearing out his bowels placing him on his thigh.

One half of his body was of a lion and the other half of a man. He had matted hair on his head, large moustaches on the face and terrible teeth in the mouth. His paws had terrible nails on them. Hiranyakashipu remembered his first death wish, "To be killed by some one who is neither human nor beast." It was also the twilight hour, neither day nor night, the second death wish. The demon king hit Narasimha with his mace but Narasimha brushed it aside swiftly. It was twilight and Narasimha caught hold of the demon Hiranyakashipu.

He sat on the threshold of the court room, placed the body of the demon on his thighs, and pierced his nails into the body of the demon and broke open his stomach. The demon was killed on the spot in a moment. The place was neither inside nor outside. This was Hiranyakashipu’s third death wish. Lord Narasimha was furious and roared. However, he was pacified when Prahlad touched his feet and goddess Lakshmi also tried to cool him. Lord Narasimha then made Prahlad the King.

Story of the 4th Avatar of Lord Vishnu, Narasimha, Hiranyakashipu (the brother of Hiranyaksha who was killed by the Varaha Avatar of Lord Vishnu) wanted to take revenge on the devotees and in particular on Lord Vishnu, fourth Avatar, Lord Vishnu, Nar
 
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I have nothing to add to what I have already posted in thread, but do want to say that these are truly entertaining insights. Personally, I don't believe that any chakra can be made a returning chakra; as you already know, the only returning instrument is a boomerang, which depends on its aerofoil section and the sharp twist imparted on delivery for the returning effect. The returning chakra must be counted as myth, IMHO.

If you consider the Narasimha chakras as older, a very interesting observation by itself, then those two statues rather decidedly favour the end-on grip of the chakra that I have been suggesting.

Considering the Narasimha chakras as older is interesting because while the avatar may be older, its depiction is of quite an independent matter. Not all Narasimha avatars depictions predate Vamana avatars depictions, although Narasimha precedes Vamana.



Fascinating. Very interesting in the wide variation of depictive styles.

While googling the 'Budha Dal' (as mentioned in your post), I found the following Gem. Durga with a stick spinning chakra (Sikh Chakra).

Now, this is the intermediate "link", the conversion between the 'stick throw method' and the 'finger throw method'. this is where I think the artists/sculptors took out the 'stick' from chakram and put the 'finger' in.
durga1.jpg



The evolution of Chakram as seem to me is as follow;

300px-Vishnu_01.jpg

Being the most Old, the original Sudarshana Chakra


h2_68.46.jpg

Sudarshana Chakra, 4 or 5 centries later.

durga1.jpg

Sudarshana Chakra is some how transformed into Sikh Chakram (Why?) with a stick assisted spin.

Vishnu.jpg

Some depictions show this, above, chakra (Sikh Chakram) as Sudarshana Chakra.

SudarshanChakra.jpg

Some depictions show the above chakra as Sudarshana Chakra. In my opinion this is pure mythical adaptation.

As I understand, in the days of yore, certain class of artisans undertook the construction of idols, reliefs, etc under strict code and procedures accompanied with certain rites in strict proportions etc. with the belief that noncompliance will attract certain wrath of deities.
Any deviation in practice must be recorded somewhere?
 
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dude that picture is not about chakra or any thing else.

it looks as if kinky net **** was invented in india too .

animal ****.

:rofl:

I dont see any **** (believe me, we Pakistani have very keen eyes for this). All I see is a kushti hold applied with telling effect.
 
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One half of his body was of a lion and the other half of a man. He had matted hair on his head, large moustaches on the face and terrible teeth in the mouth. His paws had terrible nails on them. Hiranyakashipu remembered his first death wish, "To be killed by some one who is neither human nor beast." It was also the twilight hour, neither day nor night, the second death wish. The demon king hit Narasimha with his mace but Narasimha brushed it aside swiftly. It was twilight and Narasimha caught hold of the demon Hiranyakashipu.

He sat on the threshold of the court room, placed the body of the demon on his thighs, and pierced his nails into the body of the demon and broke open his stomach. The demon was killed on the spot in a moment. The place was neither inside nor outside. This was Hiranyakashipu’s third death wish. Lord Narasimha was furious and roared. However, he was pacified when Prahlad touched his feet and goddess Lakshmi also tried to cool him. Lord Narasimha then made Prahlad the King.

Story of the 4th Avatar of Lord Vishnu, Narasimha, Hiranyakashipu (the brother of Hiranyaksha who was killed by the Varaha Avatar of Lord Vishnu) wanted to take revenge on the devotees and in particular on Lord Vishnu, fourth Avatar, Lord Vishnu, Nar

Stone relief shows that the Ashura victim, hold a sword in right hand and shield in left, in conflict of your description of 'mace'. Can you explain the variation?

Can any one identify the type/name of sword in Ashura's hand? It seem more of hoplite sword than Khanda to me?
 
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Some of the weapons granted as a result of self mortification or Tapasya were


Agneyastra by Agni or Fire
Brahmastra By Lord Brahma
Garudastra by Garuda(A swift which was the vehicle of Lord Vishnu)
Narayanastra by Lord Vishnu
Pashupata by Lord Shiva
Shiva Dhanush by Lord Shiva
Varunastra by Sky god
Nagastra by the Snake God
Hindu mythology also has Gods and deities which used to have more than one weapon at the time of war, like Goddess durga and Kali.
Read More...
 
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though this is not a weapon but i found this interesting

Satyaloka - abode of Brahma


Satyaloka is by 120,000,000 yojanas above Tapoloka. Thus the distance from the Sun to Satyaloka is 233,800,000 yojanas, or 1,870,400,000 miles. The Vaikuṇṭha planets begin 26,200,000 yojanas (209,600,000 miles) above Satyaloka. "In the Padma Puranam it has been definitely stated that on the four sides of the spiritual sky there is four different transcendental abodes occupied by Vasudeva, Samkarshan, Pradyumna and Aniruddha respectively. So also in the material sky also they are similarly placed on all the four sides. The Vaikuṇṭha sphere which is covered with spiritual water is inhabited by Vasudeva and this Vaikuntha is known as Devavatipur. Above the Satyaloka there is Vishnuloka where Sankarshan resides. In the middle of the Ocean of Milk there is an island called Swetadwipa which is resided in by Aniruddha lying on the bed of Ananta."(Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila, Chapter 5



"Lord Brahmā's day, consisting of his 12 hours, lasts 4 billion 320 million years, and his night is of the same duration."(Śrīmad Bhāgavatam
 
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though this is not a weapon but i found this interesting

Satyaloka - abode of Brahma

Well back to your own thread, and I can see that you have gained some weight, good for you. Now can you please answer throw light on my query stipulated in post 154, that is, Stone relief shows that the Ashura victim, hold a sword in right hand and shield in left, in conflict of your description of 'mace'. Can you explain the variation?
I have seen at least 40 or so image, stone reliefs, statutes etc where Asura always hold a sword and shield, in direct contrast of description in myth of mace.
 
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divya said:
Vajra

Vajra (Devanagari: वज्र, Chinese: 金剛 jīngāng; Tibetan: རྡོ་རྗེ; Wylie: rdo-rje; ZWPY: dojê, Japanese: Kongou 金剛) is a Sanskrit word meaning both thunderbolt and diamond.[1] As a material device, the vajra is a ritual object, a short metal weapon - originally a kind of fist-iron like Japanese yawara - that has the symbolic nature of a diamond (it can cut any substance but not be cut itself) and that of the thunderbolt (irresistible force).

Yawara, in fact, has nothing to do with Vajra, either in form or in use.
Yawara is pencil like (fancy dumb bell shape is also common), usually made of wood, size of 4 or 5 inches, when clensed in fist both end of sticks are jutting out of palm and visible by 3 quarter of an inch. It is a striking weapon and both the edges are used to inflict damage at joints, bones and soft tissues and 'exotic' use include strikes at pressure points etc.
Has anyone read the Modesty Blaze novels by Peter O Donneled?

Vajra is primarily a amuktha weapon, i.e., that is thrown or hurled. a kind of javalin, having said this, it is pertinent to study the form to decipher as its being a ritual object or instrument of war.

In Weapon form, two kinds are readily discernible, one is single prong and other multi prong (3 or 4 or 6 or 8 etc)
Single-pronge_vajra_weapon.gif

and an example of multi-pronged

Triple-prong_vajra_weapon.gif


Vajra is a weapon of choice of vedic god, Indra, chief of gods.

A legend tells that Shakiamuni bent the spikes/prongs of Vajra inwards, and made it into dorje, a ritual object, and that can be seen below;
(may be a philosophical way of describing the Buddhist precepts overcoming Hindu ideals)
Vajra.jpg


Now Indra with vajra
Indra_with_vajra.jpg
 
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For detailed info on Vajra evolution, interested persons may follow the sundial_vajra_literature
A wealth of info regarding myths, legend with bits of history, of Vajra in different cultures, time periods etc.

Few excerpts are reproduced below;
Earliest mention of Vajra, thunderbolt, in Mesopotamia,

marduk2vajra.jpg

Battle between Marduk (Bel) and the Dragon [Tiamat]. Drawn from a bas-relief from the Palace of Ashur-nasir-pal, King of Assyria, 885-860 B.C., at Nimrûd.''
British Museum. Nimrud Gallery, Nos. 28 and 29.
and .......
marduk1vajra.jpg

Marduk destroying Tiâmat, who is here represented in the form of a huge serpent.''
From a seal-cylinder in the British Museum,
no. 89,589.

In Greece, There was an other wielder of Thunderbolts, Zeus,
zeus_vase_ganymedesca2.jpg


Very interesting readings indeed, regarding exchange of myths, in Vedas, clay tablets reading etc. etc.
 
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Further continuing from my last posts regarding Vajra, I still think that a different kind of Vajra existed, that was being alluded as 'formed out of spine of a sage' and 'made terrible noise' when hurled.
I am unable to find any image till now on Web till now that can be true representative of above said description.
 
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One half of his body was of a lion and the other half of a man. He had matted hair on his head, large moustaches on the face and terrible teeth in the mouth. His paws had terrible nails on them. Hiranyakashipu remembered his first death wish, "To be killed by some one who is neither human nor beast." It was also the twilight hour, neither day nor night, the second death wish. The demon king hit Narasimha with his mace but Narasimha brushed it aside swiftly. It was twilight and Narasimha caught hold of the demon Hiranyakashipu.

He sat on the threshold of the court room, placed the body of the demon on his thighs, and pierced his nails into the body of the demon and broke open his stomach. The demon was killed on the spot in a moment. The place was neither inside nor outside. This was Hiranyakashipu’s third death wish. Lord Narasimha was furious and roared. However, he was pacified when Prahlad touched his feet and goddess Lakshmi also tried to cool him. Lord Narasimha then made Prahlad the King.

Story of the 4th Avatar of Lord Vishnu, Narasimha, Hiranyakashipu (the brother of Hiranyaksha who was killed by the Varaha Avatar of Lord Vishnu) wanted to take revenge on the devotees and in particular on Lord Vishnu, fourth Avatar, Lord Vishnu, Nar

Stone relief shows that the Ashura victim, hold a sword in right hand and shield in left, in conflict of your description of 'mace'. Can you explain the variation?

Can any one identify the type/name of sword in Ashura's hand? It seem more of hoplite sword than Khanda to me?

Well back to your own thread, and I can see that you have gained some weight, good for you. Now can you please answer throw light on my query stipulated in post 154, that is, Stone relief shows that the Ashura victim, hold a sword in right hand and shield in left, in conflict of your description of 'mace'. Can you explain the variation?
I have seen at least 40 or so image, stone reliefs, statutes etc where Asura always hold a sword and shield, in direct contrast of description in myth of mace.

I was watching this thread with half-an-eye, so to speak, from the mailed extracts that come to one of posts to threads followed, and didn't realise what was going on until just now.

An Asura is not all Asuras; I am more than surprised that you have not caught on, on your own. Or perhaps you are putting the pagans to the test. Whatever.

As you should be well aware, given the breadth and depth of knowledge that you have demonstrated in the past, the etymology of Asura is not demon; it became so. When the tribes were together in the Oxus-Jaxartes region, a religious split of some sort seems to have occurred. This may have happened either before Zarathustra preached, or the split may, in fact, have been his preaching; he may have said the sorts of things that led to the split. Before the split, we don't know what the original majority belief was. After the split, one side held that Ahura Mazda, the 'Asura Medha', Asur-like Intelligence, was the greatest of the Iranian divinities; the other held that these were Titan-like creatures, immortals but not the ones to be worshipped, fearful even to the Gods but defeated by them in battle, and the realm of Heaven, Indraloka, occupied after the defeat. I am compressing huge masses of myth into one or two lines, with some inevitable distortion. On the Indian side of the split, the Asuras and the Suras, or Devas, the Gods, contended for power, fought bitter battles, and finally the matter was settled at the time of the Churning of the Ocean. I will not go into details of that as it is freely available, and as you are already familiar with it, beyond a shadow of doubt. On the Iranian side, amusingly, the matter was seen in a mirror; Ahura Mazda presided over the Gods, fighting the unquiet spirits, the Daiva, led by Angra Mainyu. On the Indian, Indra, unhonoured by the Iranians, but very well-known to Alternative, as the wielder of the thunderbolt, hence the successor to Dyaus Pitar, the Jupiter of the Romans, Zeus of the Greeks, or even Odin - now, hear this - the eldest/most powerful of the Aesir. Just say Aesir out loud a couple of times, think of the meaning of Odin ("furiously excited mind") and think about it.

An aside - in the Germanic pantheon, Thor was the mighty thunder-god, presiding over the air, master of thunder and lightning, wielding the unstoppable Hammer of Thor, which destroyed its enemy and returned to Thor's hand.

Now was that Chakra or Vajra?

Thor was part of a trinity; the others were Odin (or Wotan), the Furious (a common characterising of this God seems to have been a restless but overpowering intelligence, so Ahura Mazda, asuric intelligence, or Wotan, the furious of mind, better, the furiously active intelligence) and Frikko, the peaceful and contemplative, worshipped by a phallus (which leads me to wonder about 'integrationists', who famously show that a merging of the Indo-Aryan and indigenous cosmogonies occurred, and one sign was the adoption of the Pasupati god, worshipped by phallic symbol worship, the linga).

Before returning to the Asura, let me also dangle before you the battle between Aesir and Vanir, and leave you to speculate how much one of the two Hindu epics was native composition in India, and how much pre-supposed this faint memory of a common myth of the battle between Asura and Vanara (I am not an expert in Sanskrit, but I do remember that the Vedic monkey was 'kapi', not 'vanara'; so where did this mythical, strong, passionate bunch of forest-dwellers, almost human, able to shift their shape, just like Odin, come from?).

Back to the asura. The Asura was not utterly beyond the 'pale'; he/she was god-like, but born in the wrong faction. Asura heroes abound in Hindu mythology; it is probably best to make this a bottle party; each one bring your own Asura story to the discussion. There were, in fact, many asuras, as many as there were devas. And the mace, as it now becomes clear, was a personal weapon of Hiranyakasipu, a powerful asura; it was not a universal asura weapon.

On a digression: there are daiva moments to be borne, in the 24 hour clock; there are also asuric moments. A boy born in that asuric moment was promptly named after the bravest of the asura warriors, the invincible prince of Lanka, who defeated Indra and was renamed by his father. For that reason, and also because of the noble poem in blank verse written by Michael Madhusudan Dutt, that boy, most Bengalis, in fact, think fairly positively about Ravana and Indrajit. It may be of passing interest that Indrajit, opposed to the lord of thunder and lightning, battled him from behind the clouds, hidden from sight.

Back to the point: a mace was Hiranyakasipu's weapon, not the generic weapon of asuras, who carried straight swords, the typical infantry sword, in battle. I cannot imagine the khadga used in battle; it was an executioner's sword, a palace guard's ceremonial weapon, used in sacrifice to decapitate hapless animals dragged there, earlier, the horse, the bull, now, the buffalo, the goat, chickens.....

Now what happens next?

PS: 'Death wish' is an inept translation; it is better rendered as 'death condition', the conditions that Hiranyakasipu demanded as a boon at the hands of the lord after satisfying him with intense prayer and meditation; that he should die at the hands of neither human nor animal, neither during the day nor the night, not inside nor outside, not through any weapon, not on the earth nor in the air; so, at the hands, not the weapon, of the Man-Lion, at the hour of sunset, on the sill of the door, pinned down on the monster's lap.
 
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I was watching this thread with half-an-eye, so to speak, from the mailed extracts that come to one of posts to threads followed, and didn't realise what was going on until just now.

An Asura is not all Asuras; I am more than surprised that you have not caught on, on your own. Or perhaps you are putting the pagans to the test. Whatever...............................................................................................................................................................................................................Back to the point: a mace was Hiranyakasipu's weapon, not the generic weapon of asuras, who carried straight swords, the typical infantry sword, in battle. I cannot imagine the khadga used in battle; it was an executioner's sword, a palace guard's ceremonial weapon, used in sacrifice to decapitate hapless animals dragged there, earlier, the horse, the bull, now, the buffalo, the goat, chickens.....

Only this one line was enough, "An Asura is not all Asuras", and I am not in to calling names of any sort of.
I mentioned the Khanda not Khadga in my post #154, reproduced below
Alternative said:
Can any one identify the type/name of sword in Ashura's hand? It seem more of hoplite sword than Khanda to me?
Shape of sword, seen in reliefs/sculptures, it not of a Khanda, but more of a hoplite sword (Xiphos)...?

Joe Shearer said:
Now what happens next?

I will go on to comment on Trishula.

Joe Shearer said:
PS: 'Death wish' is an inept translation; it is better rendered as 'death condition', the conditions that Hiranyakasipu demanded as a boon at the hands of the lord after satisfying him with intense prayer and meditation; that he should die at the hands of neither human nor animal, neither during the day nor the night, not inside nor outside, not through any weapon, not on the earth nor in the air; so, at the hands, not the weapon, of the Man-Lion, at the hour of sunset, on the sill of the door, pinned down on the monster's lap.
Although, blandly told that death was inevitable, Hiranyakasipu decided to go in style.
Some time, our pride and arrogance blind us to very simple truths of mundane life.
 
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Only this one line was enough, "An Asura is not all Asuras", and I am not in to calling names of any sort of.
I mentioned the Khanda not Khadga in my post #154, reproduced below

Be cool. That purported name-calling was intended to be facetious.

Shape of sword, seen in reliefs/sculptures, it not of a Khanda, but more of a hoplite sword (Xiphos)...?

Define Khanda, as distinct from a hoplite sword. I need to understand what your definition is, before commenting.

I will go on to comment on Trishula.AAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!


Although, blandly told that death was inevitable, Hiranyakasipu decided to go in style.
Some time, our pride and arrogance blind us to very simple truths of mundane life.

True, but he tried to beat Yama by putting in what he thought would be conditions impossible to fulfil. They were not; not in fable, at least.
 
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Further continuing from my last posts regarding Vajra, I still think that a different kind of Vajra existed, that was being alluded as 'formed out of spine of a sage' and 'made terrible noise' when hurled.
I am unable to find any image till now on Web till now that can be true representative of above said description.

That should be a type of hammer, with a noise-making mechanism, like a bull-roarer. However, I am puzzled, as I have neither read about such a weapon, nor seen any discussion about it. Knowing you, it is quite likely that you have the sources lined up, and will not make the mistake of challenging you.
 
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Define Khanda, as distinct from a hoplite sword. I need to understand what your definition is, before commenting

Going with the saying, a picture is worth hundred words (or thousand words...surely you can correct me), please consider the following for older or ancient form of Khanda
gods_pray_to_goddess_durga_hk51.jpg

tulwar-khanda.jpg

Blade of Khanda is thick with a central ridge and broadens right after point, and at foible blade is widest and gradually thins out till cross-guard. Design is angular.

and closer look
ph-0.jpg


Latter Khandas were more straight, almost same as Sakhela. See below image.
rajput-khanda.jpg


And the Xiphos

images

Xiphos is more 'curvy' and tend to blade tends to widen near cross-guard.

Joe Shearer said:
AAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!
What can I do? Point deserve that much info......
 
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