My take on the recent escalation in Kashmir and the Long-march. Thougts?

[tarrar]

The solution for Pakistan is to get rid of all kind of US ties which are direct threat to Pakistan & it is because of US Pakistan continues to suffer daily & Pakistan needs to recognize that India, US, Allies & current Afghan Govt. are the enemies of Pakistan but unfortunately this will not happen because the incompetent & corrupt Govt. & incompetent & corrupt politicians are installed in Pakistan by the US & they own the democracy in Pakistan.

 

[gotti]

@gotti : Thank You for never joining Pakistan's bureaucracy, the armed forces or even the political elite otherwise we'd be foOked !

I agree, which is why you aren't part of it either. Had you known anything about them or even bothered to study any material available on them, online, you would know that they believe in having relations with Israel and are unable to due to the Pakistani sentiment associated with any such steps (remember Kasuri and meetings with the Israeli FM, How about Imran Khan's wife)?

I don't want to argue with people who don't need to be convinced or are worthy of any replies. Try not to bother quoting or mentioning me if you don't have a reasonable argument.

No cheering for anyone... just pointed out the dementia of of your idiotically structured rhetoric







What Akhand bharat... we dont give a crap about acquiring any land... keep your mental pleasures to yourself






Patels? BJP? wth //// How bout coming up with an ounce of objectivity. I have no affiliations with any political establishments




But didn't you just claim Us-Pak sync, as far as kashmir, do understand the relaities on ground and the UN security councils resolution. http://www.defence.pk/forums/centra...lebiscite-un-security-council-resolution.html





Well common sense dictates that when a state like USSR breaks apart, there will be a certain time period till the sucessor state will commence its foreign policy, but the whom am I expecting common sense from?





Wait a sec, didn't you claim pakistan aspires to take kashmir from India with the help of US, pointing to sham of kashmiri revolution. As far as Indian troop presence in kashmir is concerned, i dont expect you to understand that didn't want to make this discussion about J&K, but if you insist.. Northern command of the Indian Army is based in J&K alon with 3 State Divisions Viz (J&K Rifles + J&K light infantry and Ladakh scouts -roughly totaling 40,000 troops and support staff)

Northern Command
The Northern Command was a formation of the British Indian Army from 1895 to 1942, and then from 1945 to 1947. Subsequently it was reformed in the post-Independence Indian Army in 1972. is also based in J&K.
The government of India decided to raise a separate command to oversee operations in the northern borders with Pakistan and China. Lt Gen P.S. Bhagat, VC was appointed as the first Army Commander in June 1972. Bhagat's main activities as Army Commander were the improvement of defences and the living and working condition of his troops

the northern command structure is
3rd Infantry Division headquartered at Leh
8th Mountain Division headquartered at Dras
?th Artillery brigade
XV Corps, headquartered at Srinagar, Jammu and Kashmir
19th Infantry Division headquartered at Baramulla,
28th Infantry Division headquartered at Gurez
?th Artillery brigade
XVI Corps, headquartered at Nagrota, Jammu and Kashmir
10th Infantry Division headquartered at Akhnoor
25th Infantry Division headquartered at Rajauri
39th Infantry Division headquartered at Yol
Artillery brigade
Armoured brigade

Indian Armed presence is due to historical Pakistani Aggression. indian Armed structur has been in j&K since 1972, its not a recent deployment...

It is a strategic state where military establishment is stationed.. questioning indian army's presence in j&K is like questioning why do you have troop concentration in Rawalpindi... even now if you dont get my point .. then there is no point in wasting my time ...


With constant infiltration from Pakistan, it leaves us no choice. Once military is stationed in an area some loss of civil liberties are inevitable.



Insurgencies supported by foriegn support, on a counter charge, all doesn't seem to be well in certain parts of your country either.



Please do visit, Mumbai, Banglore, Calcutta, pune, banglore, cochin and study the military barricades there....



Stop infiltration, stop cross border terror tactics, we wouldn't need deployment.



Time to wake up from the nizam era... its 2012



Please spare me the BS when half of the muslim world goes up in flame from a drawing or a video.




Fail buddy... no hidutva affiliations from an atheist over here!


My bad, I assumed your "azad deccan" BS originated from maoist insuregency.. I didn't realise it was derived from hokum!





OK time for some history lesson for Yugo background,
Death of Tito>>Rise of Serbian Nationalist/Slobodan Milošević>revolts in Serbia and Montenegro>>Greater Serbia Demand>> Franjo Tuđman/croatian position against serbian nationalist>>Serbia endorsing Croatian Serbs' rebellion>>Independence of Slovenia and Croatia>>>Croatian War of Independence against rebel ethnic Serbs of the SAO Krajina/support by Serbia>> Independence of Macedonia and Bosnia>>>Serbs immediately declared the independence of Republika Srpska>>> UN Security Council Resolution 721>> Serbian resolution is defeated in a Yugoslav Presidency vote, Slobodan Milošević orders the mobilization of Serbian special forces >>>Slovenia declares independence.>>>European Community recognizes Slovenia and Croatia>>> Bosnia and Herzegovina declare independence>>>Serb-dominated Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (FRY) remains>>> Even that break into two>>>





Extrapolating Nationalistic affiliations of Yugo to predominant socio-economic problems of India doesn't need "imagination", it displays pure stupidity...





HAHA




Check facts.




I often wonder why people like you fantasize american occupation of your state politics?





Mate why in gods name are you taking this kid seriously . in five pages not one Pakistani member has come to agree with his rants .
we are all having fun at the OP expense ,

Long and boring and just regurgitating standard Indian talking points.

Only one point is worthy of a mention or clarification (the one about atheism and Hindutva):

The leaders of RSS were also atheist and same with Zionism.

Political ideologies based on religious affiliations or for the sake of promoting a cause of a "historic" religious group does not equate to faith or belief within that same religion.

For many, Jinnah was a secular atheist but the founder of a Muslim nationalistic cause and nation.

Waiting for a link please.

Experience, and not relevant to those living near the border of Nepal or Bangladesh. Those who know, know. Those who don't, well, they didn't need to know to begin with.

 

[gotti]

Dear Gotti welcome to the forum.

While i welcome the idea of expounding thoughts and ideas at one place, its not wise to do so with a multitude of them. Hope you get the drift of what i am saying. Its just that the reader's mind is clogged with excess of everything.

I request u to put forward a coherent theory like below

1) Initial explanation of what the topic is and the historical and present situation along with peripheral conditions effecting.

2) Next some facts and your theories within the limits of possiblity and if possible some past precedents.

3) Finally the solution and final comments.

Thank you for welcoming and your advice.

Anyways regarding ur thoughts,

While its true that it is always in the interest of a country to have better relation with another, if u consider the present relations between Pakistan and America and the conditions prevailing do u realistically think that any break through is possible??

They have been coordinating military maneuvers and extracting aid for more than a decade despite some shortcomings, overall, Pakistanis have greatly benefited from the relationship and so has America vis-a-vis, their policy in the Central Asia.

Pray tell me how Iran (i am not even talking about Afghanistan) would be willing to host American soldiers on their soil, sorry to say but this comment seems comical. Are u aware of the current relations between Iran and America?? Also did u imply that somehow if America becomes cosy once more with Pakistan Iran and Afghanistan will become friendly with America and host their bases??

I never mentioned that Iran would allow bases - I said Afghanistan would - this is materializing as you can see with the Karzai meeting and it will definitely materialize just as it did with Saudi Arabia.

As I argued in my post, Saudi and Afghan culture is very similar and so are their religious and tribal customs and practices. So, if bases are hosted in one country whilst taking their local religious laws and practices into consideration (and are respected in the same light) then, the same phenomena to not work in Afghanistan is beyond me.

I am sure you know Pakistan also released the prisoners.

Again u say something so preposterous as to provide the base for attack on Iran?? You think this is wise. You think they will be sit quiet and let u be??

The behavior of America should have told u by now that countries always work in their own interest and aren't tied down by ideologies or imaginary love.

I never mentioned in any context that ideology is an issue and I had been arguing against it, right from the start and encouraging Pakistanis to do the same. The last comment regarding this has been made to clarify that stance.

Also, everything I wrote was in perspective of what other policymakers or opinion-makers were writing in blogs and newspapers around the world and not my own fantasies.

Indians have been aligned to their socialist bloc and have continued to do so despite liberalizing their economy and siding with America (proof of that was the hindrance in the permission for foreign "supermarkets" entering their markets).

Regarding China, u are making too many generalized comments, on one hand u say that they will end up in the same bloc as India and Russia and then again u say that they would prefer breakup of India by America and Pakistan as it will contain the rising Russian influence!!!

Here, what I stated was a quote from a foreign Russian diplomat who had served in Afghanistan and not my own thoughts. He had said what I mentioned and maybe it can be found somewhere on the internet or in an interview where he said that although, they are aligned, there are internal struggles within the bloc where certain interests do not align.

Examples of this can be seen with Russia shooting and killing Chinese fishermen.

Finally ur take on India is very confusing to say the least. It is very nice of u to talk of diplomatic pressure upfront rather the military one with us combined with America, so u mean to say that if we don't give up kashmir u will break us up using the methods of orange revolution?? the reason USSR broke up was because of sinking ideology of Communism and state corruption and lack of personal freedom etc etc. Seeing India u should note that we don't have problem with freedom of speech except certain exceptions where the elite comes in. The widespread reports about the rape is an ample proof of a free talking society. There is unequitable distribution but we are opening our doors gradually to the world and Americans would rather do business with us and earn billions of dollars than break us up. Fighting corruption will go on, so while we have our problems we constantly are talking about it and trying to solve them.

As far as our foreign policy goes we always have taken decisions which benefit us not that benefit others, seems that u appreciate our effort to invest in Russia as u have said they are our historical partners truly.

I will choose to ignore responding to this as what you did was defend your country and you have the right to do so in the most respectful tone possible (despite the offense caused by my post). To not usurp that right, I will choose to ignore the urge to respond to what you're saying as that would beneath the proper ethics of a decent political discussion and discourse.

More than thoughts i feel its a long-term plan if can be executed with passage of time depending on the international geo-political blocks' formation and breakup.


Let me suggest a simple one Give Base to China in Azad Kashmir and US should get a base in Indian Occupied Kashmir and the two should pounce at each other.

Arms dealers and their expression -

 

[gotti]

No cheering for anyone... just pointed out the dementia of of your idiotically structured rhetoric





What Akhand bharat... we dont give a crap about acquiring any land... keep your mental pleasures to yourself






Patels? BJP? wth //// How bout coming up with an ounce of objectivity. I have no affiliations with any political establishments




But didn't you just claim Us-Pak sync, as far as kashmir, do understand the relaities on ground and the UN security councils resolution. http://www.defence.pk/forums/centra...lebiscite-un-security-council-resolution.html





Well common sense dictates that when a state like USSR breaks apart, there will be a certain time period till the sucessor state will commence its foreign policy, but the whom am I expecting common sense from?





Wait a sec, didn't you claim pakistan aspires to take kashmir from India with the help of US, pointing to sham of kashmiri revolution. As far as Indian troop presence in kashmir is concerned, i dont expect you to understand that didn't want to make this discussion about J&K, but if you insist.. Northern command of the Indian Army is based in J&K alon with 3 State Divisions Viz (J&K Rifles + J&K light infantry and Ladakh scouts -roughly totaling 40,000 troops and support staff)

Northern Command
The Northern Command was a formation of the British Indian Army from 1895 to 1942, and then from 1945 to 1947. Subsequently it was reformed in the post-Independence Indian Army in 1972. is also based in J&K.
The government of India decided to raise a separate command to oversee operations in the northern borders with Pakistan and China. Lt Gen P.S. Bhagat, VC was appointed as the first Army Commander in June 1972. Bhagat's main activities as Army Commander were the improvement of defences and the living and working condition of his troops

the northern command structure is
3rd Infantry Division headquartered at Leh
8th Mountain Division headquartered at Dras
?th Artillery brigade
XV Corps, headquartered at Srinagar, Jammu and Kashmir
19th Infantry Division headquartered at Baramulla,
28th Infantry Division headquartered at Gurez
?th Artillery brigade
XVI Corps, headquartered at Nagrota, Jammu and Kashmir
10th Infantry Division headquartered at Akhnoor
25th Infantry Division headquartered at Rajauri
39th Infantry Division headquartered at Yol
Artillery brigade
Armoured brigade

Indian Armed presence is due to historical Pakistani Aggression. indian Armed structur has been in j&K since 1972, its not a recent deployment...

It is a strategic state where military establishment is stationed.. questioning indian army's presence in j&K is like questioning why do you have troop concentration in Rawalpindi... even now if you dont get my point .. then there is no point in wasting my time ...


With constant infiltration from Pakistan, it leaves us no choice. Once military is stationed in an area some loss of civil liberties are inevitable.



Insurgencies supported by foriegn support, on a counter charge, all doesn't seem to be well in certain parts of your country either.



Please do visit, Mumbai, Banglore, Calcutta, pune, banglore, cochin and study the military barricades there....



Stop infiltration, stop cross border terror tactics, we wouldn't need deployment.



Time to wake up from the nizam era... its 2012



Please spare me the BS when half of the muslim world goes up in flame from a drawing or a video.




Fail buddy... no hidutva affiliations from an atheist over here!


My bad, I assumed your "azad deccan" BS originated from maoist insuregency.. I didn't realise it was derived from hokum!





OK time for some history lesson for Yugo background,
Death of Tito>>Rise of Serbian Nationalist/Slobodan Milošević>revolts in Serbia and Montenegro>>Greater Serbia Demand>> Franjo Tuđman/croatian position against serbian nationalist>>Serbia endorsing Croatian Serbs' rebellion>>Independence of Slovenia and Croatia>>>Croatian War of Independence against rebel ethnic Serbs of the SAO Krajina/support by Serbia>> Independence of Macedonia and Bosnia>>>Serbs immediately declared the independence of Republika Srpska>>> UN Security Council Resolution 721>> Serbian resolution is defeated in a Yugoslav Presidency vote, Slobodan Milošević orders the mobilization of Serbian special forces >>>Slovenia declares independence.>>>European Community recognizes Slovenia and Croatia>>> Bosnia and Herzegovina declare independence>>>Serb-dominated Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (FRY) remains>>> Even that break into two>>>





Extrapolating Nationalistic affiliations of Yugo to predominant socio-economic problems of India doesn't need "imagination", it displays pure stupidity...





HAHA




Check facts.




I often wonder why people like you fantasize american occupation of your state politics?

As I've made clear, you have absolutely no understanding of anything and that includes Iran, it's internal politics or even the millions of Persians living in America, seeking an end to the regime (there are 60 satellite channels in Farsi, based in America denouncing Iran).

What???

Is it just me or you seem to have demintia??




??????




You got me, thats what I do


Sure... Whatever



Structure my boy, the word is structure....work on it



Well no point in discussing... you dont know ****!




The reason is your argument has no content, no structure apart from some fantasies of browbeating India into submission with american aid.






Hint: Im not!






Well i never called a pakistani terrorist, and niether did any informed indian member here... so there goes your argument in the trash.



yea sure




What now???


I have no issues with weed,,, if that was your case!



Preaching to the choir brother... with lack of insight, structure and logic... it's reccomended please do take your own advice


All I can say is , welcome to the forum, I will enjoy the entertainment quotient you do bring....
@karan.1970, @DrSomnath999, @indushek, @Joe Shearer, @Capt.Popeye, @nick_indian, @RoYaL~GuJJaR, @Sher Malang @Mech, @Syama Ayas... Stand up comic alert!

I replied to your post, to a different person. You might want to read what I said to that person as what you said was just, I mean, well, you have a keyboard and can't let the other have the last word and you'd want that for yourself (despite not having the slightest bit of clue of what needs to be said).

Like roller-coasters (what this is), there are height restrictions and since you don't measure up, let the big boys have a go while you watch from the sidelines and wonder what it would be like when you grow up and have a shot at being part of the fun.

I can't even bother laughing at your claim that Azad Deccan originated from the Maoist insurgency. If you knew anything about Hyderabadi history, Nizam, the Razakars, Rizvi, AIMIM, then you wouldn't continue this streak at embarrassing yourself.

Most of your replies were "one words" and at the end, after being slapped around, you tried to call your friends to help you save some dignity but that doesn't necessarily work does it?

You can bring all the members of this forum and I will continue to hold my own in a debate and discussion that I had initiated with complete command and knowledge of what I was saying and based on accurate and credible sources that one can search, themselves.

Since, I have made clear to you, that you are far beneath my level and your worthless one-worders have shown your acceptance of this bitter reality, I will request you to shut your trap from this point onwards and just watch what happens. Along with doing this, you might learn something, gain a few pointers and who knows, maybe the coach will let you get off the bench and have a go, for real, but till that happens, know your place and stay there.

In the end, I wouldn't bother replying or contributing to a discussion that is far beyond your ability to understand or partake in.

 

[gotti]

I see you got the point.

As another Pakistani poster pointed out, there seems to be a lack of sanity.

Good luck with your aligning with america dream, if they ignore you as well, maybe you could propose India as your next godfather, I'll support that.

Pointing out that there is "another Pakistani" doesn't do anyone any good in a debate or discussion where "other Pakistanis" are just that, other Pakistanis.

So, when the "others" are also reminded to not sneak onto a playing field, which isn't level for them, whence, you need to also be reminded that because after failing at trying to prove a point, you decided to resort to idiocy like most other posters that share the same nationality as you (which nationality is it BTW? American or Indian? The latter only allows one and since you're more loyal to that one, wonder why you choose to stick around in the former? Answer: there is power, facilities and most of all, sanitation).

Pakistan is OK with any third party. India the diametric opposite. No third party.



Oh ok...China did not one-sidedly transfer you nuke and missile tech Guess what, Chinese can keep their 'advice' to themselves, no offence to them.

Ironically, AQ Khan was also being blamed by the Indians and the West for stealing Western technology because of which, now, I am confused, which one is it? Chinese or Western?

Obviously it can't possibly be indigenous as Muslim scientists can't produce Nuclear technology - wait, how did Abdul Kalam do it? - now, I am confused, even more, someone please help!

 

[gotti]

^^ Wagah is a circus. I hope they disband that..atleast for the sake of the kneecap of our soldiers. facepalm

It exists on both sides and draws a larger number of crowds from the Indian end (given their higher populations).

If any "disbandment" is to take place, it would have to be mutual as it is a border between two countries.

The incoherent ramblings of a mad man. It is as if after a night of drunken bliss the op logged on and decided to vent except your thoughts came out all at once making no sense.

The Sage is back at it again. Nothing could've made sense to a "sage" from the holy land of the tri-state area where the most successful of the immigrants, have realized their American dream through cabs and 7-11s.

Why? People wonder, oh mystical one, why aren't you possibly able to understand anything?

The answer for that, too, is hidden in the most mystical and hidden reasons unknown to man, yet, very, ably understood by the Pir az Jersey Shareef.

 

[gotti]

if America attacks Iran from Pakistan ???

I have a question from Pakistani bros & sis ?

do you want your country destroyed ???

If America can attack Afghanistan from Pakistan, why not Iran?

Not a rhetorical question and not asking about how great Iran is compared to Afghanistan or even the rest of the world.

Asking the moral basis behind the concept. Afghanistan? Yes. Iran? No, why?

Afghanistan was also attacked through Iran and there were joint operations conducted by the then Chief Safavi along with the Americans in Farsi-speaking areas (places, traditionally assumed to be under Iranian influence) such as Mazar-e-Sharif and Herat.

No one can possibly see a reason to attack Afghanistan and not Iran, by any logic, although, I am not advocating more war or killings - just trying to understand the logic - at the end of the day, Pakistan will always safeguard its own interests and not those of it's Persian counterparts in Iran or Afghanistan (add Pashtun counterparts, to the list)

 

[KS]

Obviously it can't possibly be indigenous as Muslim scientists can't produce Nuclear technology - wait, how did Abdul Kalam do it? - now, I am confused, even more, someone please help!

Indian nuke tech was there far before APJ Kalam sir. Look up Homi Bhaba.

 

[gotti]

I wonder how that would affect Sino-Indian relations.

Anyway, this thread is based on the wishful opinions of one person. No one else seem to think that way. Pakistan today is more anti-America than India ever was. Their military ally of six decades is bombing their territory and killing their children and still there are a select few who see USA as some sort of messiah. Ironic indeed. CIA/Blackwater kills people in braod daylight and walks away home unharmed. Is this what being in important ally of America means? Is this what it takes to be "Israel of South-Central Asia"??

As for breaking up of India, all separatist movements, maybe except Kashmir, has lost steam and are on the table to discuss either statehood or autonomous councils within the Union of India. The Maoist issue is not separatist at all, something the OP seem to have forgotten. They plan to create a communist India and not break India up.

As I requested an individual before, I would do the same now.

At what point in my post did I mention Maoists and if you can point it out, I would think you would have a reason to keep your "highlighted" comment into place, till then, you will have to accept that you were absolutely incapable of either reading or understanding what I wrote (I'd say reading, given that Maoists weren't mentioned and neither were they mentioned to highlight any "separatism" had they been mentioned but that would mean we are speaking in hypotheticals and that's not what I usually indulge in).

Also, you've just made the most stupidest case at trying to get Pakistanis to hate America or the sections who have had an issue with America to continue in their way of thinking.

This approach was evident by Jaswant Singh in the show with Musharraf where he was making populist statements no different than a fringe political party in Pakistan would, only to encourage the Pakistani viewer to hate America.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I am impressed with your levels of delusion mate, it is unbelievable. For some reason you seem to have an over inflated sense of Pakistan's importance on the global stage. You seem to think Pakistan is some global power whom every power is keen to court. You also seem to think that any power and especially the US would be willing to part ways with India in order to cement ties with Pakistan- there are hundreds of reasons why this is fantasy but let me put the two biggest- economic ties, the US is hoping emerging markets like India, Brazil,China,Turkey Indinesia etc will help them to sort out the world's economic misery, Paksitan clearly is in no postion to help the global economy heal itself. Next there is the fact that the West wants India to be a regional counterweight to china, it is clear India does not want this postion nor does it see itself as some poodle of the West but this is what the West wants. As such India is far, FAR more important to the West than Paksitan. I have no idea where you have for the idea that the world would unite to dissolve he union of India.

Let's not even mention that within 40 years India will be number 2 or 1 in terms of economy size.


Then let's address your balkanisation of India idea, you seem to be living in some fantasy world where sectarian violence and regional differences are tearing India apart on a daily basis- this simply isn't true. Most outside commentators, including many of you compatriots, agree that India has successfully crafted a strong national identity wherein most Indians see themselves as Indians first and anything else second. There is 0 serious separatist movement in India that has any widespread backing. I homesy don't know where you have gotten this nonsensical idea into your head.

India is a fully functioning democracy with many friends and allies all over the world do you honestly believe that NATO or the West would just be allowed to come in and attack India?? Please. Paksitan on the over hand- a nation that is proven to be a safe haven for terrorists, whose army dictates the actions of the civil establishment, by all accounts is doing worse year on year wrt HDI, budget deficit, governance, corruption etc. Who do you think the world would support?


Wrt rape comments- the ONLY reason the world is even paying attention to this incident is because the Indians themselves came out and called for change- this is how democracy works. Similar things happen all over the developed and backward world but no one bats an eyelid, Indians said "NO MORE" and are calling for change-'is this not something to be celebrated? India is by no means the nation with most rapes per capita nor the nation with the lowest conviction rate for rapists. It is clearly just a case of Indians wanting more for their nations and aspiring for better. Only an idiot would attack India for this.

Maybe because in Pakistan a girl can be sent to prison for being raped and that there have to be 4 witnesses to a rape for any sort of police involvement you don't understand what a functioning and fair society is. India appreciates there is much wrong with its society but the differences between it and Pakistan is that it asks the hard questions and looks to resolve these issues, in Pakistan you seem to be content in sweeping these issues under the carpet.


Ask yourself if you genuinely believe India has more rapes than Paksitan.


I have no idea why or how you are allowed to get away with starting a thread like this.

I usually try to refrain from entering these pointless and absurd debates but your level of stupidity deserved a response from me.

 

[gotti]

Indian nuke tech was there far before APJ Kalam sir. Look up Homi Bhaba.

Did they screw up in making him a president for that reason or what?

Posthumously, make this guy the president.

Also, how about include Bose, the physicist in the list (of course, to mitigate the influence of the "father" of the Indian program).

It's okay, we have that going on in Pakistan vis-a-vis AQ Khan, but the conversation gets more technical there by self-educated nuclear physicists. At least you didn't bother going that route (although, you did use the classical argument of saying, well yes, he's glorified but it's not like he's the only one or he "started" it).

In the end, I would like to inquire, are only Indians (and now, it seems Hindus) capable of producing Nuclear technology and not Pakistanis?

Please do make this case so our negative image as the" nuclear proliferater" or the "leader of the nuclear black market" and provider of Nuclear technology to Iran, North Korea and failed attempts at doing so with Libya and Iraq, is removed, internationally.

This is something Indians can do as a benefit for Pakistan's PR. Prove to the world who blames us for creating Nuclear technology, indigenously through a scientist from the Netherlands, who worked there and used his expertise (and some say plans) from there to create a program since the 70's (throughout Zia's time who was later labelled as the most patriotic liar for covering this up) and then, at Benazir's orders, spread it to Iran, Iraq and Libya (North Korea was for money and at China's behest).

 

[Abingdonboy]

I don't think either side wants US involvement in this situation but China should use its influence to bring both sides to talk this out diplomatically.

India has always maintained the Kashmir issue needs to be sorted out bi-laterally and would not appreciate any 3rd party involent no matter how well meaning that 3rd party may be.

 

[gotti]

I am impressed with your levels of delusion mate, it is unbelievable. For some reason you seem to have an over inflated sense of Pakistan's importance on the global stage. You seem to think Pakistan is some global power whom every power is keen to court. You also seem to think that any power and especially the US would be willing to part ways with India in order to cement ties with Pakistan- there are hundreds of reasons why this is fantasy but let me put the two biggest- economic ties, the US is hoping emerging markets like India, Brazil,China,Turkey Indinesia etc will help them to sort out the world's economic misery, Paksitan clearly is in no postion to help the global economy heal itself. Next there is the fact that the West wants India to be a regional counterweight to china, it is clear India does not want this postion nor does it see itself as some poodle of the West but this is what the West wants. As such India is far, FAR more important to the West than Paksitan. I have no idea where you have for the idea that the world would unite to dissolve he union of India.

You obviously didn't understand what I wrote and what you're writing are either straw-man arguments created as a result of your interaction with other Pakistanis or just an indication of your senile mental state (or maturity as it is more likely that you are at the other end of the spectrum of life).

I was arguing that it is likely to take place as a result of interests and losing of American influence in the region. Pakistan might not be the greatest or biggest country in the world but when it comes to interests, even small countries like Cuba are protected despite the risk of a nuclear world war (as in Kennedy's time).

To explain any of this any further to you would require to re-write the entire article and the patience with doing so is lacking as I am not paid for or responsible for dealing with people with learning disabilities.

Let's not even mention that within 40 years India will be number 2 or 1 in terms of economy size.

Consider the two bolded statements. They clearly indicate in who's mind the idea of a "superpower" really exists and who is projecting this thought onto others.

There is no possible theory, survey or result by any analysis firm in the world that has claimed for India to be 1 and 2. Almost all have agreed that it would be a close fight between China and America for the first and second spots.

Then let's address your balkanisation of India idea, you seem to be living in some fantasy world where sectarian violence and regional differences are tearing India apart on a daily basis- this simply isn't true. Most outside commentators, including many of you compatriots, agree that India has successfully crafted a strong national identity wherein most Indians see themselves as Indians first and anything else second. There is 0 serious separatist movement in India that has any widespread backing. I homesy don't know where you have gotten this nonsensical idea into your head.

The argument of what my "compatriots" think or believe has absolutely no bearing on what I wrote or my thinking. India isn't as united as you would like to believe and it is clear to whoever who has the slightest bit of idea about local Indian politics from West Bengal to Rajasthan. (I didn't bother including the "integral" parts of India that are the 7-sister states or Kashmir as it is clear that these parts define Indian integrity only on the basis of almost a million soldiers being posted, in either place).

India is a fully functioning democracy with many friends and allies all over the world do you honestly believe that NATO or the West would just be allowed to come in and attack India?? Please. Paksitan on the over hand- a nation that is proven to be a safe haven for terrorists, whose army dictates the actions of the civil establishment, by all accounts is doing worse year on year wrt HDI, budget deficit, governance, corruption etc. Who do you think the world would support?

Those indicators that you have mentioned show your utter and complete disregard towards macroeconomic principles along with the fallibility of these metrics when it comes to judging the health of a country's economy. India has the poorest population in the world, half of them have never seen power in their entire lives, those who have it, have absolutely no guarantee of seeing it for more than two hours in a row, yet, the GDP was flourishing and the economy booming or "shining".

Therefore, the economic indicators have no bearing on how the country's economy really is and how the citizens of that nation really live.

Wrt rape comments- the ONLY reason the world is even paying attention to this incident is because the Indians themselves came out and called for change- this is how democracy works. Similar things happen all over the developed and backward world but no one bats an eyelid, Indians said "NO MORE" and are calling for change-'is this not something to be celebrated? India is by no means the nation with most rapes per capita nor the nation with the lowest conviction rate for rapists. It is clearly just a case of Indians wanting more for their nations and aspiring for better. Only an idiot would attack India for this.

Maybe because in Pakistan a girl can be sent to prison for being raped and that there have to be 4 witnesses to a rape for any sort of police involvement you don't understand what a functioning and fair society is. India appreciates there is much wrong with its society but the differences between it and Pakistan is that it asks the hard questions and looks to resolve these issues, in Pakistan you seem to be content in sweeping these issues under the carpet.

I would like to direct you towards the cases of Mukhtara Mai and others and whenever such incidents took place, there was local outcry and then, these aid groups directed their criticism at international agencies for ignoring the plight of the people in question. As a result, there was justice and the possibilities of such acts taking place at the behest of local tribal feudal lords was stopped within that same region.

Ask yourself if you genuinely believe India has more rapes than Paksitan.

I have no idea why or how you are allowed to get away with starting a thread like this.

Not necessarily a defense for the rape culture that is slowly developing in India, is it?

Not sure if that's how one can defend what happens in one country or in one case in a court of law.

Even the NRA didn't say that well, if there are gun deaths in America, look at Mexico or Afghanistan.

No logic behind this statement and the aim at trying to deflect criticism by using imaginary and hypothetical parallels utterly faltered.

I usually try to refrain from entering these pointless and absurd debates but your level of stupidity deserved a response from me.

A very dubious statement. "I usually don't enter stupid debates but since this was a stupid debate, I had to respond".

That's like saying, "I am a Cretan and all Cretans are liars"

So, lets take the first part of that statement into consideration. You are Cretan. Fine.

But, then, you say that "all of them lie", which means you also lie and what you said could also be a lie, given that you are a Cretan. But, if what you said is true, then all Cretans can't be liars, since you wrote the truth. It's dubious, confusing and nonsensical.

Similarly, you said you 'refrain' from stupid debates but you responded to this, only because it was stupid. So, either you don't take part in stupid debates because you're not stupid, or you do, which would mean you're stupid yourself.

I know, there wasn't a need to elaborate on what you said or over-analyze in this manner, but I couldn't help or stop myself from trying to show that you proudly, and blatantly, called yourself stupid.

 

[NALANDA]

It was good fun reading the OP. Good to start the day with lot of Humor and especailly Sunday morning.

India and Indian ethos and its foreign poilcy and diplomats are Influenced by Chankya's Principles and you will not see India taking any country side, fighting for third country war etc. For India and Indians, only India is important.

One country in the regions with which it associates most (religious and spiritula belief as well as ancient philosophy) is China and you will always find India and Indian Diplomats and Politicias ( going back to Nehru) supporting China on many counts ( as we are on same page on these issues) though public posturing may be different to many.

One thing we always oppose and will always oppose is interference of third country ( even for the purpose of countering China) in Indian region. If we have problem with China we will deal it mutually.

But these traits and behaviour can only be expected from ancient nations and civilization and not momentary countries who are there to only serve the giants and who should never have been allowed to exist as Country in the first place.

 

[MilSpec]

I replied to your post, to a different person. You might want to read what I said to that person as what you said was just, I mean, well, you have a keyboard and can't let the other have the last word and you'd want that for yourself (despite not having the slightest bit of clue of what needs to be said).

Like roller-coasters (what this is), there are height restrictions and since you don't measure up, let the big boys have a go while you watch from the sidelines and wonder what it would be like when you grow up and have a shot at being part of the fun.

I can't even bother laughing at your claim that Azad Deccan originated from the Maoist insurgency. If you knew anything about Hyderabadi history, Nizam, the Razakars, Rizvi, AIMIM, then you wouldn't continue this streak at embarrassing yourself.

Most of your replies were "one words" and at the end, after being slapped around, you tried to call your friends to help you save some dignity but that doesn't necessarily work does it?

You can bring all the members of this forum and I will continue to hold my own in a debate and discussion that I had initiated with complete command and knowledge of what I was saying and based on accurate and credible sources that one can search, themselves.

Since, I have made clear to you, that you are far beneath my level and your worthless one-worders have shown your acceptance of this bitter reality, I will request you to shut your trap from this point onwards and just watch what happens. Along with doing this, you might learn something, gain a few pointers and who knows, maybe the coach will let you get off the bench and have a go, for real, but till that happens, know your place and stay there.

In the end, I wouldn't bother replying or contributing to a discussion that is far beyond your ability to understand or partake in.

Dear sir, If any of your ridiculous half baked non-sense would deserve any bigger reply I would, But most of your bs is childish banter, even me bothering to reply is pretty gud for you big boy....Unfortunately we have to be strictly civil on the forum or else a very common word is more than enough to summarize all of your crap.