My religion is not the business of the state: YLH

[Verve]

Same people ... over and over again bashing Objective Resolution and promoting secularism ... great well wishers aren't they just!?

 

[war&peace]

I challenge positive rating for OP. This is a hindu back patting another hindu for an article he didn't write himself, just to extol the secular agenda. This circle jerk of secular interests simply cannot be allowed on a Pakistani forum, a country whose ministers are on record saying "I wish before my death, this assembly dies".

@WebMaster @The Eagle @Horus @Oscar @waz @Dazzler @The Deterrent @Chak Bamu

The guy who rated that the OP positively has been abusing his powers and it needs to be stopped.

Look at the hypocrisy of these double faced psychos, they support Modi, a hindu extremist from RSS and murderer of more than 4000 Muslims in Gujjarat in the so-called secular country but they want to promote secularism in a country that was created in the name of Islam, for the Muslims of the region and officially named as Islamic Republic of Pakistan. They have no right to poke their noses in Pakistan's internal affairs. If we meet them physically, they will be treated physically but they just hide behind the anonymity on PDF.

 

[CriticalThought]

The guy who rated that the OP positively has been abusing his powers and it needs to be stopped.

Look at the hypocrisy of these double faced psychos, they support Modi, a hindu extremist from RSS and murderer of more than 4000 Muslims in Gujjarat in the so-called secular country but they want to promote secularism in a country that was created in the name of Islam, for the Muslims of the region and officially named as Islamic Republic of Pakistan. They have no right to poke their noses in Pakistan's internal affairs. If we meet them physically, they will be treated physically but they just hide behind the anonymity on PDF.

He hides behind a sob story of how fanatics are destroying his country. Strangely enough, he spends a lot of time on defence.pk. Maybe we should give him political asylum and help him in ridding India of the Modi cancer?

 

[Zarvan]

http://dailytimes.com.pk/opinion/09-Oct-17/my-religion-is-not-the-business-of-the-state

This last week when the Electoral Reforms Bill was introduced, someone — someone who is gifted with both heart and a first rate brain — removed the ‘religious oath’ from the bill. It was about time. What kind of nation state in the 21st century is still bothered by what the personal faith of an individual is? Need I remind you of what the founder and maker of this country, Jinnah, — “You may belong to any religion caste or creed- that has nothing to do with the business of the state”.

Why then in God’s name are my religious beliefs then the business of this ‘Islamic’ constitution imposed on us by those in the National Assembly of 1973?

One of these constitution makers, Ahmad Raza Kasuri, made quite a scene in Islamabad High Court two weeks ago after his cell phone rang during court proceedings. He refused to turn the phone in screaming at the judge “I am the founding father of the constitution, how dare you take my phone away”. Yes he is many of the founding fathers of the so-called ‘Islamic’ Constitution.

Another founding father of the Constitution was Maulah Bux Soomro, brother of Allah Bux Soomro, the arch pro-Congress “secular politician” who presided over conferences of Ahrars and Momins in Delhi against the Muslim League some time before the Hurs got rid of him for killing Pir Pagaro. Maula Bux Soomro would take special pleasure in abusing and attacking Jinnah and who later, quite appropriately, became chief advisor to Martial Law dictator General Ziaul Haq. He had wanted his son Illahi Bux Soomro to become the Prime Minister instead of Muhammad Khan Junejo.

Yet another founding father of the Constitution of ours is Khan Abdul Wali Khan. This brilliant Pushtun nationalist politician – scion of ‘secular’ Khan dynasty and Bacha Khan’s political heir had voted on serial no8 on the list to declare Ahmadis Non-Muslim through the 2nd Amendment. He did so along with his entire party — the ‘National Awami Party. His father Bacha Khan, the great non-violent secular saint was alive and well then. No protests were heard from these self styled champions of secularism and liberalism while Pakistan converted into a theocracy. Instead, for decades they evaded the question so long as the proceedings were under the wrap but truth did come out. We now know that not only did Wali Khan vote alongside his party, but he also asked the Ahmadi leader that question which seemingly sealed the fate — “do you consider us Muslims?” Should it matter to a secular leader whether someone else considered him or her Muslim? The issue is and will always be of the state making that determination.

And then we had Mr Zufikar Ali Bhutto – the gallant soldier of Islam, the Islamic Socialist hero, the arch-patriot, the Quaid-e-Awam and the leader of the Pakistan People’s Party. The PPP likes to claim that ZAB threw the question of Khatm-e-Nabuwat to the National Assembly as a last resort. Whether that is true or not, for years Bhutto took credit for it. In a recent interview to a TV journalist, Khurshid Shah even implied that Bhutto was assassinated as part of an international conspiracy because he dared to declare Ahmadis Non-Muslim. Have some shame at long last Mr Shah.

Even more shameless than the shameless leader of the opposition was the politician from Rawalpindi — Shaikh Rasheed. He invoked the memory of Majlis-e-Ahrar and Ataullah Shah Bokhari in the next session. Yes the same Atatullah Shah Bokhari who famously said that those who vote for Jinnah or the Muslim League are the same as those who eat pork. Majlis-e-Ahrar called Pakistan Kafiristan and called Jinnah Kafir-e-Azam, but in this country that Jinnah founded, we have to live by the diktat of these personnel. The purpose of the Constitution is not to fix your religious belief or aqeedah. A constitution’s sole purpose is to exist as a social compact between the state and the governed. It is not the state’s business if I believe or disbelieve. My religion is no business of the Constitution. I call upon all citizens of Pakistan reading this article to rise up against this religious tyranny imposed on us.

No, they say, the state was founded in the name of Islam. No, that is not an accurate narration of historical events leading up to the Partition. The state was founded because Muslims and Hindus as legally-defined ethnic groups under the British could not find a constitution acceptable to both. They came close. It was known as the Cabinet Mission Plan. But it didn’t happen. Whatever the case, Pakistan was not founded so that the constitution framed for it impinges upon citizens’ right to exist as free individuals. Jinnah promised as much repeatedly – he repeatedly said that a person’s religion is his personal matter and not the business of the state. So why have the elected representatives of this country spent the last week debating a non-issue? Pakistan will not progress – whatever you imagine its founding myth – unless it separates religion from state completely and uncompromisingly.

Regards

It's State business, In Islam it always was and always will be

 

[Sliver]

after reading the OP, this seems to be a liberal vs conservative battle going on everywhere these days.

It is for Pakistanis to decide where they want their country to go. and it is for Pakistanis to decide which parts of their founder's ideals they want to live by and which ones they want to change and how. If Pakistan of the present day wants to be an Islamic Republic, it should not be held hostage to what its founder imagined or dreamt of. ultimately, Pakistan belongs to ALL of Pakistanis not just its founder.

one thing though - is to allow the free speech to openly talk about opposing ideas and then come up with a direction. suppressing free speech and not allowing opposing views to be aired only makes a state theocratic and unable to change from a set direction.

my two cents!

 

[YeBeWarned]

Don't Qadiyani's also declare all other sects as Kaffir too ? because we don't believe in Gulam Ahmad as last Prophet .

 

[war&peace]

He hides behind a sob story of how fanatics are destroying his country. Strangely enough, he spends a lot of time on defence.pk. Maybe we should give him political asylum and help him in ridding India of the Modi cancer?

I'm not referring to an individual rather indians on pdf as a whole. They think it is their right to impose their agendas on Pakistan...no guys... Get the hell out of here..It is our country and we do whatever we want.

Same people ... over and over again bashing Objective Resolution and promoting secularism ... great well wishers aren't they just!?

And they same people over and over falling with their ugly face down in the mud. However, they are testing the limits of the patience and I think the time is drawing closer to put this controversy to an end once for all so that we can progress with single mindedness.

after reading the OP, this seems to be a liberal vs conservative battle going on everywhere these days.

It is for Pakistanis to decide where they want their country to go. and it is for Pakistanis to decide which parts of their founder's ideals they want to live by and which ones they want to change and how. If Pakistan of the present day wants to be an Islamic Republic, it should not be held hostage to what its founder imagined or dreamt of. ultimately, Pakistan belongs to ALL of Pakistanis not just its founder.

one thing though - is to allow the free speech to openly talk about opposing ideas and then come up with a direction. suppressing free speech and not allowing opposing views to be aired only makes a state theocratic and unable to change from a set direction.

my two cents!

Actually its founder wanted Pakistan to be an Islamic country otherwise what was the reason to separate Pakistan from india? and sacrificing millions of people and displacing even bigger number?
The only slogan that echoed in the AIML since 1940 was

Pakistan ka Matlab kia La illaha ill Allah
What's the gist and objective of Pakistan?, to follow the rules of Allah Almighty and professing His Oneness
​

These libtard/secularists lie and distort the history.

​

 

[Sliver]

Actually its founder wanted Pakistan to be an Islamic country otherwise what was the reason to separate Pakistan from india? and sacrificing millions of people and displacing even bigger number?
The only slogan that echoed in the AIML since 1940 was

and my point is, even if the founder did want a secular country but the present citizens want an islamic country, then what should prevail? the founder is long gone - its for the current Pakistanis to decide which kind of Pakistan they want. and that will be an on-going question for every generation to decide - what do they want tier country to be? it should be a question thats closed for debate just because the founder wanted it one way (or another).
only issue is that - by allowing free speech, you allow your people to talk about opposing views on decide the path for themselves.

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Joe Shearer

Why don't you practice what you preach and stay away from Pakistani politics or discussions regarding the constitution and internal policies?

This holier than thou attitude once it gets past the amusement phase will probably fall under annoying phase and that cannot possibly be good for any Indian on this forum let alone the alleged Professional ones.

@The Eagle This guy should not be allowed to hand any ratings to any Pakistani to begin with and most of his given ratings end up being controversial.

Is this a personal grievance couched as a point of order?

Secondly, the creation of two Dominions of India and Pakistan is of interest to both Indians and to Pakistanis. This has been debated in great detail, and with every courtesy extended to each side by members belonging to the other. You have yourself no idea of what has gone on, and from the limited perspective of your time on this forum or any other, you are unlikely to gain any idea either.

Thirdly, beyond the creation, the changes in the constitutions of either former Dominion are of immediate and direct interest to citizens of the other, as well as to political analysts all over the world. The mere fact that a part of this discussion happens to be on PDF should not give you the illusion that something special and distinctive is being done here, or that members of this forum have an over-riding veto on what we discuss; they may certainly object, and their objections will be treated with the courtesy that they deserve, and reactions will depend on the merit of those objections. Earlier today, a very respected member (not you) objected; it did not take time to respond, with the respect that he has earned, not sought as a birthright or as an adjunct of his citizenship, and to react with the reaction that he sought. Very politely and with reasoned argument, rather than with pique and resentment at being unable to comprehend the discussion and being unable to enter it in any sensible manner.

 

[El Sidd]

Is this a personal grievance couched as a point of order?

Secondly, the creation of two Dominions of India and Pakistan is of interest to both Indians and to Pakistanis. This has been debated in great detail, and with every courtesy extended to each side by members belonging to the other. You have yourself no idea of what has gone on, and from the limited perspective of your time on this forum or any other, you are unlikely to gain any idea either.

Thirdly, beyond the creation, the changes in the constitutions of either former Dominion are of immediate and direct interest to citizens of the other, as well as to political analysts all over the world. The mere fact that a part of this discussion happens to be on PDF should not give you the illusion that something special and distinctive is being done here, or that members of this forum have an over-riding veto on what we discuss; they may certainly object, and their objections will be treated with the courtesy that they deserve, and reactions will depend on the merit of those objections. Earlier today, a very respected member (not you) objected; it did not take time to respond, with the respect that he has earned, not sought as a birthright or as an adjunct of his citizenship, and to react with the reaction that he sought. Very politely and with reasoned argument, rather than with pique and resentment at being unable to comprehend the discussion and being unable to enter it in any sensible manner.

You can voice all of these concerned in an Indian thread. There's a similar one running currently.

You are interested in arguments. We prefer constructive approach in our society not based on I am right you are wrong point scoring.

My six months stay here is irrelevant. You do nothing more or nothing less than being an Indian. The know it all attitude is the reason why people see India as they saw USSR.

 

[Joe Shearer]

You can voice all of these concerned in an Indian thread. There's a similar one running currently.

You are interested in arguments. We prefer constructive approach in our society not based on I am right you are wrong point scoring.

My six months stay here is irrelevant. You do nothing more or nothing less than being an Indian. The know it all attitude is the reason why people see India as they saw USSR.

One more for the Cookie Monster Index.

 

[El Sidd]

One more for the Cookie Monster Index.

You may have an addiction.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I'm not referring to an individual rather indians on pdf as a whole. They think it is their right to impose their agendas on Pakistan...no guys... Get the hell out of here..It is our country and we do whatever we want.


And they same people over and over falling with their ugly face down in the mud. However, they are testing the limits of the patience and I think the time is drawing closer to put this controversy to an end once for all so that we can progress with single mindedness.


Actually its founder wanted Pakistan to be an Islamic country otherwise what was the reason to separate Pakistan from india? and sacrificing millions of people and displacing even bigger number?
The only slogan that echoed in the AIML since 1940 was

Pakistan ka Matlab kia La illaha ill Allah
What's the gist and objective of Pakistan?, to follow the rules of Allah Almighty and professing His Oneness
​

These libtard/secularists lie and distort the history.

​

For your education, it was that same founder who shouted down a speaker from the floor in a Muslim League meeting, because that member mentioned this slogan, and stormed at him for using vote-catching slogans in a serious League meeting.

Maybe it is you distorting your own history?

You may have an addiction.

I may.

 

[Luffy 500]

Among the many commendable things the state of Pakistan achieved is the objective resolution and declaring declaring qadiyanis to be what they actually are - non-muslim and serious anti-islamic cult. Yes , yes , yes Islam definitely mandates regulation of public space by the state in favor of Islam and Islamic principles because it is the only truth and guidance for mankind ordained by the Creator of everything that exists. Its the duty of the state that Muslims are NOT subjected to corruption by deviant, heretics and falsehood of non-muslims and that entails there is restriction on what one can say in public if that involves calling people to false, trying to deceive people and lead them astray.

The very notion that state has nothing to do with ones religion is alien to islam and is NOT from the rich islamic history & tradition but it is imported from anti-religion post-"enlightenment" europe. There is absolutely NO room for such non-sense in Islam. Why should it be that muslims who are in majority organize their state polity based on alien ideas and beliefs of fringe minority - liberals, secularists & qadiyanis? By any measure of commonsense & logic that is absoultely absurd.

Also, one has to note that qadiyani cult originated in India and unfortunately this cult group thanks to british patronage have considerable numbers in the subcontinent specially India & PAK. Thus it was imperative on PAK state to make sure that the deception & corruption of this cult group was called out & prevented by the state. PAK owed it to the Muslim world and they have done their job. Congrats to my PAK brothers for that.

 

[Sliver]

Why should it be that muslims who are in majority organize their state polity based on alien ideas and beliefs of fringe minority - liberals, secularists & qadiyanis?

you just need to stick to this same justification when you talk about minority muslims being asked to follow the rule of the land where they are staying.