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My religion is not the business of the state: YLH

@war&peace @Joe Shearer

War&peace bhai,

Well that backfired and any such effort will always be shot down in a 97% Muslim country that was created in the name of Islam so these libturds cannot impose their secular tyranny over the majority against its will.

The author of this piece is a very dear friend of mine and I do hope he lives long enough to see his beloved Pakistan become a secular nation that he wants it to become, or at least something very close to it. Not because it is good for me, or him or even to the 5% minorities of Pak, but because IMHO it is the best thing for the greatest number for all Pakistanis.

Having said that, I do acknowledge that a state cannot be stable or sustainable if it is based on an ideology or principle which is acceptable to the vast majority of its citizens. If indeed, a vast majority of Pakistanis reject secularism as a principle of the state and want an Islamic state that is the way it should be. Not because secularism is a flawed principle, but because to try and build a secular state under such conditions is to attempt to build a castle of sand.

Regards

Secularism is a flawed principle of governance. If you really want to prove that you have a country of 1 billion people to experiment your desires upon and your best wishes for Pakistan are warmly received.
 
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Religion and governance should be separated imo , sure it may "unitek the country but at what cost .
 
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@El Sidd

Secularism is a flawed principle of governance. If you really want to prove that you have a country of 1 billion people to experiment your desires upon

I will certainly want my own country, to be a secular one, both in principle and practise. Inshallah, we will get there one day.

About your contention about secularism being a flawed system of governance, that is debatable. The most successful countries that I see are secular, to a great extent.

Regards
 
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@El Sidd

Secularism is a flawed principle of governance. If you really want to prove that you have a country of 1 billion people to experiment your desires upon

I will certainly want my own country, to be a secular one, both in principle and practise. Inshallah, we will get there one day.

About your contention about secularism being a flawed system of governance, that is debatable. The most successful countries that I see are secular, to a great extent.

Regards

You can create a thread in the Indian Defence Forum section and debate about that with your fellow countrymen on this part. Pakistan was not formed on the basis of secularism otherwise there would have been no difference between Azad and Jinnah.

As far as secularism in Pakistan is concerned we have many secular people who do not shy away from the debate with a Pakistani and certainly no Indian can help with that in any regards.

Pakistani constitution do not treat its citizens unequally as far as the state is concerned they are all Pakistani citizens. What this writer is after and quite frankly you also is pure idealism.
 
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jinnah wanted it(or my book says so) is probably the weakest argument in favor of anything....
 
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if their articles could change anything, Pakistan would be secular by now, dont waste our time with this bullshit..

Main issues of Pakistan are corrupt rulers, corruption, good governance, rule of law etc..
 
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@war&peace @Joe Shearer

War&peace bhai,

Well that backfired and any such effort will always be shot down in a 97% Muslim country that was created in the name of Islam so these libturds cannot impose their secular tyranny over the majority against its will.

The author of this piece is a very dear friend of mine and I do hope he lives long enough to see his beloved Pakistan become a secular nation that he wants it to become, or at least something very close to it. Not because it is good for me, or him or even to the 5% minorities of Pak, but because IMHO it is the best thing for the greatest number for all Pakistanis.

Having said that, I do acknowledge that a state cannot be stable or sustainable if it is based on an ideology or principle which is acceptable to the vast majority of its citizens. If indeed, a vast majority of Pakistanis reject secularism as a principle of the state and want an Islamic state that is the way it should be. Not because secularism is a flawed principle, but because to try and build a secular state under such conditions is to attempt to build a castle of sand.

Regards
Your friend has no place in MY country. He should better pack up and leave or accept the constitution and the will of the people. Anyone who tries to mess up with MY country is DOOMED. We won't tolerate either the religious extremists or the secularists.

By the way, Indians should stay away from commenting on Pakistan's internal affairs. If you respect democracy, it is what the majority of Pakistan want. You went with Modi and RSS despite calling your country a secular state - your choice , we never lied to the world...We are Islamic Republic of Pakistan and we won't let anyone change this.

Qadiyanis are welcome to stay in Pakistan and enjoy life here but they won't be allowed to present their religion as Islam.
 
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@Max

issues of Pakistan are corrupt rulers, corruption, good governance, rule of law etc..

Neither the author nor his Sole Spokesman disputes that. But principles of governance and statecraft are important to.

@war&peace

Your friend has no place in MY country. He should better pack up and leave.

I am afraid, sir, he is a bona fide citizen of Pakistan. You will have to put up with him.

Regards
 
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@Max

issues of Pakistan are corrupt rulers, corruption, good governance, rule of law etc..

Neither the author nor his Sole Spokesman disputes that. But principles of governance and statecraft are important to.

Regards

A relevant read:

https://www.dawn.com/news/1362528/who-is-listening

Who is listening?
Ashraf Jehangir Qazi October 09, 2017



THE degenerate politics of Pakistan on public display every day is sucking the life-blood of the country. The legislative and political stratagems in support of massive and organised corruption and in defiance of the Supreme Court are holding the whole country to ransom.

The relentless plunder of the people is destroying the lives of millions upon millions of living and unborn Pakistanis. No enemy could be so hostile! Is it too late to save Pakistan? It is never too late for decent Pakistanis to change from being passive spectators and actively organise to save their country from hovering vultures. Now is a defining moment.

Fifty years ago, Pakistan was on course to be a prosperous, educated, middle-class, secure and stable country with a per capita income at least 10 times that of today. But institutionalised corruption, cynical leadership, predatory governance, subversion of national priorities, and the hijacking of the national interest have brought the country to its present pass.

We are told ‘speak truth to power’. Noam Chomsky says the powerful know the truth and are very happy with it. The people need to speak truth to each other in order to realise their own power to change their circumstances and confront predators. No ‘saviour’ will come. Pakistan’s ‘leaders’ must be servants of people’s movements. CPEC and China’s invaluable friendship cannot compensate for criminal misrule.

Movements require a mobilising vision, commitment, organisation, struggle, feedback, and participatory decision-making. Otherwise, any progress will be sporadic, temporary and insufficient to overcome the political inertia. The hopeless response to constructive proposals will remain: who is listening?

The challenge is not to make sensible recommendations which are promptly ignored; it is to develop movements which ensure they cannot be ignored. Unfortunately, many think the moral strength, mental horizons, political confidence and organising capacities of the people are too limited to challenge the powers that be.

If true, Pakistan will have no future. But if slavish pessimism is rejected we can meaningfully discuss some realities and requirements a leadership committed to serving a people’s movement for national transformation should consider. The following are a few:

(i) The population of Pakistan will reach an utterly unmanageable 400 million by 2050;

(ii) Along with climate change and the risks of nuclear conflict these are existential challenges. Addressing them are overriding priorities;

(iii) There has been enormous underinvestment in the whole range of human resource development which would raise capacities to address these challenges;

(iv) Massive investments are needed for poverty reduction and transforming the health, education, sanitary, housing, mother-and-child care, basic services provision, human and gender rights protections, administrative and governance systems;

(v) The money for these investments must be largely generated from the revenues of a developing economy to preserve Pakistan’s political and economic sovereignty;

(vi) Long-term economic growth rates should be transformational (eight per cent for 30 years?) for defence expenditures, debt repayments and administration costs to be met without incurring unserviceable and ruinous debt;

(vii) Budgetary allocations and tax burdens must be transparent, rational, redistributive and pro-growth;

(viii) Social and economic inequalities should be significantly reduced while living-wage job opportunities are maximised through human resource development;

(ix) Credit Suisse recently estimated Pakistan’s middle class at over 6m. This is around 3pc of the population. A middle-class country should have a middle class approximately half the population. The structure of power and class-based governance stand in the way of addressing this situation;

(x) Defence spending that takes away from other essential spending undermines economic and national security;

(xi) Transition from a security to a development and democratic state is the condition for national security in today’s world;

(xii) Major corruption should be a capital crime. The Soft State Syndrome is fatal;

(xiii) The promotion of a ‘culture’ of rationality, innovation, and science and technology is indispensable to implement transformation policies;

(xiv) Civil-military relations mean nothing outside civilian supremacy;

(xv) Capable, responsible and accountable policymaking institutions must replace personal, uninformed, uneducated and unaccountable decision-making;

(xvi) Governance must be brought closer to the people through devolution of power;

(xvii) The formation of additional provinces should be encouraged in accordance with the wishes of the concerned people;

(xviii) Terrorism is a major challenge. Though deep-rooted it must be uprooted. It is largely the result of national and international injustice, violence and elite complicity;

(xix) Counterterrorism without addressing the root causes of terrorism is disguised state terror. Politically mainstreaming banned but renamed extremist organisations associated with terrorism is an irresponsible dereliction of duty;

(xx) Nuclear weapons are a deterrent to prevent war. They should never be considered a first-strike option;

(xxi) The protection of nuclear assets and materials is less about systems reliability; it is more about external perceptions of Pakistan’s sustained political will to deny unauthorised access;

(xxii) Without transformational change at home, foreign policy cannot develop international credibility and effectiveness;

(xxiii) The foreign service as the nation’s ‘first line of defence’ must be upgraded and empowered as a major priority;

(xxiv) A foreign minister must elicit respect and loyalty from the foreign service through his understanding of foreign policy issues and his commitment to service morale and welfare;

(xxv) The foreign minister must also carry weight in the cabinet and the corridors of power for his ministry to provide indispensable professional input for a credible foreign policy. Recent criticisms of his remarks about putting our house in order are disingenuous and infantile; and

(xxvi) Policies towards India, Kashmir, the US, Afghanistan, Iran, etc should be integrated and consistent with national transformation, 21st-century imperatives, international law, strategic partnership with China, and UN resolutions on Jammu and Kashmir. Short-term policies must be embedded in longer-term policy perspectives to maximise possibilities for principled and acceptable outcomes.

All of the above is doable. But who is listening? The political system is rotten beyond polite description. A corrupt elite cannot communicate with the people. It can only deceive and ferociously defend its loot. However, a people made aware of their faith and power to be free, will listen, challenge and prevail.

The writer is a former ambassador to the US, India and China and head of UN missions in Iraq and Sudan.
 
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@Syed.Ali.Haider

SAH sb,

The population of Pakistan will reach an utterly unmanageable 400 million by 2050

I must beg to differ on this. My dear friend Brof Riazul Haq says that high population growth is a very good thing- demographic dividend or something like that.

Regards
 
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@Syed.Ali.Haider

SAH sb,

The population of Pakistan will reach an utterly unmanageable 400 million by 2050

I must beg to differ on this. My dear friend Brof Riazul Haq says that high population growth is a very good thing- demographic dividend or something like that.

Regards

You have the right to believe whatever you wish, whether be it facts in evidence, or wishful thinking born of denial of said facts.
 
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@Max

issues of Pakistan are corrupt rulers, corruption, good governance, rule of law etc..

Neither the author nor his Sole Spokesman disputes that. But principles of governance and statecraft are important to.

@war&peace

Your friend has no place in MY country. He should better pack up and leave.

I am afraid, sir, he is a bona fide citizen of Pakistan. You will have to put up with him.

Regards
Yes he is a citizen of Pakistan and no one in this world except him can change that fact. His life, property and other rights are secure under the constitution of Pakistan ironically, the very constitution he derides.

But what I mean is that if he has this kind of hate and he is not happy, he can leave...no one is forcing him to stay but no one will allow him to force his agenda on us. That's where the religious extremist and the secularist are the same from a common Pakistani's POV. Both of them are trying to thrust their will upon the masses. While people haven't let the religious extremists to take over the country, what makes the secularist libturds so special that we will allow them to control the state? though practically they are controlling but they can't cross certain limits due to the fear of the people.
 
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Neither the author nor his Sole Spokesman disputes that. But principles of governance and statecraft are important to.

principle of governance and statecraft have nothing to do with us being Islamic republic..

Governance and statecraft can be improved with reforms and controlling corruption.
 
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Why then in God’s name are my religious beliefs then the business of this ‘Islamic’ constitution imposed on us by those in the National Assembly of 1973?


The writer should actually read and understand the consequences of the Objectives Resolution, passed long before in 1949. He is finding fault with the building without looking at its very foundation.
 
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