My religion is not the business of the state: YLH

[Musafir117]

Correction

Did you changed the Kalima? App pe tou sidha sidha blasphemy case banne ga
To be a Muslim you have to recite

Now translate it again in Urdu or English please.

 

[gutto786]

It is when your cult declares everyone else other than your cult as Kuffar. This Ahmadi writer is on Statedep doll out.

You guys are desperate to bring Ahmadis into this dirty politics but for the last time: WE DO NOT CARE ANYMORE
you guys can frame this joke of a Law and put it on every wall in Pakistan or send it across the Globe, we do not care and For God sake Ahmadis are not behind any of this agenda or anything going in Pakistan. We were isolated a long time ago and thats when your system started collapsing as well

Its ur own brain farts, u guys created this 70s. Used it in 80s and 90s and 2000s, then started jumping against it. Then ameer ul momeen Nawaz Sharif revives it again

We do not care, we are too big for Pakistan now Alhamdolillah and our mission is too big as well

So keep enjoying u guys!!

 

[Imad.Khan]

I know i will probably get a lot of abuse for this but i am still gona bring my viewpoint, and before i continue i would like to inform that i am Sunni of the Hanafi Branch. Alot of people think that in the Kalima it says that Muhammad is the last prophet, this is incorrect. Below are the six Kalimas translated

1. There is no god but Allah, [and] Muhammad is the messenger of Allah.

2. I bear witness that (there is) no god except Allah; One is He, no partner hath He, and I bear witness that Muhammad is His Servant and Messenger.

3. Exalted is Allah, and praise be to Allah, and there is no deity except Allah, and Allah is the Greatest. And there is no might nor power except in Allah, the Most High, the Most Great.

4. "(There is) no god except Allah – One is He, no partners hath He. His is the Dominion, and His is the Praise. He gives life and causes death, and He is Living, who will not die, never. He of Majesty and Munificence. Within His Hand is (all) good. And He is, upon everything, Able (to exert His Will)."

5. "I seek forgiveness from Allah, my Lord, from every sin I committed knowingly or unknowingly, secretly or openly, and I turn towards Him from the sin that I know and from the sin that I do not know. Certainly You, You (are) the knower of the hidden things and the Concealer (of) the mistakes and the Forgiver (of) the sins. And (there is) no power and no strength except from Allah, the Most High, the Most Great".

6. " O Allah! I seek protection in You from that I should not join any partner with You and I have knowledge of it. I seek Your forgiveness from that which I do not know. I repent from it (ignorance) and I reject disbelief and joining partners with You and of falsehood and slandering and innovation in religion and tell-tales and evil deeds and the blame and the disobedience, all of them. I submit to Your will and I believe and I declare: There is none worthy of worship except Allah and Muhammad is His Messenger."

None of the 6 Kalimas state that Mohammad is the last prophet. So if a person recited the first Kalima he/she is a Muslim. Now as far as i understand and the reason that most Muslims think that Ahmadis are Kafir is because they believe that Mirza Gulam Ahmad was Imam Mehdi. Now i have done some research on what makes a person Kafir and the conclusion i have come across is that by believing that Mirza is Imam Mehdi doesn't make them Kafir instead it makes them Munafiq.

I could be wrong but thats what i have been able to gather. If someone else can explain to me, i would appreciate it as long as they don't belong to these Made in India sects (Deobandis/Bhralvis)

 

[Musafir117]

I know i will probably get a lot of abuse for this but i am still gona bring my viewpoint, and before i continue i would like to inform that i am Sunni of the Hanafi Branch. Alot of people think that in the Kalima it says that Muhammad is the last prophet, this is incorrect. Below are the six Kalimas translated

1. There is no god but Allah, [and] Muhammad is the messenger of Allah.

2. I bear witness that (there is) no god except Allah; One is He, no partner hath He, and I bear witness that Muhammad is His Servant and Messenger.

3. Exalted is Allah, and praise be to Allah, and there is no deity except Allah, and Allah is the Greatest. And there is no might nor power except in Allah, the Most High, the Most Great.

4. "(There is) no god except Allah – One is He, no partners hath He. His is the Dominion, and His is the Praise. He gives life and causes death, and He is Living, who will not die, never. He of Majesty and Munificence. Within His Hand is (all) good. And He is, upon everything, Able (to exert His Will)."

5. "I seek forgiveness from Allah, my Lord, from every sin I committed knowingly or unknowingly, secretly or openly, and I turn towards Him from the sin that I know and from the sin that I do not know. Certainly You, You (are) the knower of the hidden things and the Concealer (of) the mistakes and the Forgiver (of) the sins. And (there is) no power and no strength except from Allah, the Most High, the Most Great".

6. " O Allah! I seek protection in You from that I should not join any partner with You and I have knowledge of it. I seek Your forgiveness from that which I do not know. I repent from it (ignorance) and I reject disbelief and joining partners with You and of falsehood and slandering and innovation in religion and tell-tales and evil deeds and the blame and the disobedience, all of them. I submit to Your will and I believe and I declare: There is none worthy of worship except Allah and Muhammad is His Messenger."

None of the 6 Kalimas state that Mohammad is the last prophet. So if a person recited the first Kalima he/she is a Muslim. Now as far as i understand and the reason that most Muslims think that Ahmadis are Kafir is because they believe that Mirza Gulam Ahmad was Imam Mehdi. Now i have done some research on what makes a person Kafir and the conclusion i have come across is that by believing that Mirza is Imam Mehdi doesn't make them Kafir instead it makes them Munafiq.

I could be wrong but thats what i have been able to gather. If someone else can explain to me, i would appreciate it as long as they don't belong to these Made in India sects (Deobandis/Bhralvis)

People doesn't care if someone say to someone you a kafir, problem start when you forcefully by writ of state make them to accept is as well and say that I'm a not Muslim. Raid their houses to check if they having Quran to arrest them, forcefully raised the Kalima and other Quranic Ayat from their mosques, arrest them to call themselves Muslims arrest them to say Asalamo Eleikum to other. THIS IS CALL PURE NON SENSE AND NOTHING TO DO WITH TEACHINGS OF ISLAM.

 

[AUz]

Who the **** is YLH? Nobody knows him and I have never even hear of him

 

[I.R.A]

I know i will probably get a lot of abuse for this but i am still gona bring my viewpoint, and before i continue i would like to inform that i am Sunni of the Hanafi Branch. Alot of people think that in the Kalima it says that Muhammad is the last prophet, this is incorrect. Below are the six Kalimas translated

1. There is no god but Allah, [and] Muhammad is the messenger of Allah.

2. I bear witness that (there is) no god except Allah; One is He, no partner hath He, and I bear witness that Muhammad is His Servant and Messenger.

3. Exalted is Allah, and praise be to Allah, and there is no deity except Allah, and Allah is the Greatest. And there is no might nor power except in Allah, the Most High, the Most Great.

4. "(There is) no god except Allah – One is He, no partners hath He. His is the Dominion, and His is the Praise. He gives life and causes death, and He is Living, who will not die, never. He of Majesty and Munificence. Within His Hand is (all) good. And He is, upon everything, Able (to exert His Will)."

5. "I seek forgiveness from Allah, my Lord, from every sin I committed knowingly or unknowingly, secretly or openly, and I turn towards Him from the sin that I know and from the sin that I do not know. Certainly You, You (are) the knower of the hidden things and the Concealer (of) the mistakes and the Forgiver (of) the sins. And (there is) no power and no strength except from Allah, the Most High, the Most Great".

6. " O Allah! I seek protection in You from that I should not join any partner with You and I have knowledge of it. I seek Your forgiveness from that which I do not know. I repent from it (ignorance) and I reject disbelief and joining partners with You and of falsehood and slandering and innovation in religion and tell-tales and evil deeds and the blame and the disobedience, all of them. I submit to Your will and I believe and I declare: There is none worthy of worship except Allah and Muhammad is His Messenger."

None of the 6 Kalimas state that Mohammad is the last prophet. So if a person recited the first Kalima he/she is a Muslim. Now as far as i understand and the reason that most Muslims think that Ahmadis are Kafir is because they believe that Mirza Gulam Ahmad was Imam Mehdi. Now i have done some research on what makes a person Kafir and the conclusion i have come across is that by believing that Mirza is Imam Mehdi doesn't make them Kafir instead it makes them Munafiq.

I could be wrong but thats what i have been able to gather. If someone else can explain to me, i would appreciate it as long as they don't belong to these Made in India sects (Deobandis/Bhralvis)

I can reply to your post but .......... it depends if you are ready to read them without getting offended.

 

[Imad.Khan]

I can reply to your post but .......... it depends if you are ready to read them without getting offended.

It depends, are you just gona abuse me for my viewpoint or are you going to help me understand where i can be wrong?

People doesn't care if someone say to someone you a kafir, problem start when you forcefully by writ of state make them to accept is as well and say that I'm a not Muslim. Raid their houses to check if they having Quran to arrest them, forcefully raised the Kalima and other Quranic Ayat from their mosques, arrest them to call themselves Muslims arrest them to say Asalamo Eleikum to other. THIS IS CALL PURE NON SENSE AND NOTHING TO DO WITH TEACHINGS OF ISLAM.

I agree with you that persecution for a person's belief is not warranted whatever it might be.

 

[I.R.A]

It depends, are you just gona abuse me for my viewpoint or are you going to help me understand where i can be wrong?

I am sure I will be the one getting condemned if I start debate with you on this.

 

[Imad.Khan]

I am sure I will be the one getting condemned if I start debate with you on this.

I had the same fear but i still went ahead with it. I can assure you that i will not be the one hurling abuses at you. infact i promote a healthy discussion because we might learn something.

 

[Musafir117]

I had the same fear but i still went ahead with it. I can assure you that i will not be the one hurling abuses at you. infact i promote a healthy discussion because we might learn something.

Open a thread in Senior to tag few Mod to monitor it, two reasons The religious debate not allowed second to avoid trollers.

 

[Imad.Khan]

Open a thread in Senior to tag few Mod to monitor it, two reasons The religious debate not allowed second to avoid trollers.

i don't have access to that section because i am not a senior yet

Edit: sorry i just realized that i am a senior lol. not sure when i became a senior

 

[I.R.A]

I had the same fear but i still went ahead with it. I can assure you that i will not be the one hurling abuses at you. infact i promote a healthy discussion because we might learn something.

Okay then lets see how far this goes.

and before i continue i would like to inform that i am Sunni of the Hanafi Branch.

I am sorry I may sound some self righteous nutcase but here is the thing .... Sunni, Shia, Ahle Hadeeth, Baralvi, Hanafi, Deobandi etc etc etc and all future sects that remained to be formed to accomplish that goal of 72 sects are all creations out of history written by men ......... all of these have nothing to do with Islam ........ a Muslim cannot be a Sunni, Shia, or whatever other divisions we have created out of our insecurities and ignorance and labelled them to be true Islam. One should try researching and studying Quran and understand that sectarianism is a sin (wrong doing) placed one level above shirk (making partners with one and only ALLAH all mighty).

Alot of people think that in the Kalima it says that Muhammad is the last prophet, this is incorrect.

Kalima is a ceremonial oath and not a prerequisite for one to be become Muslim or accept Islam. The conditions for one to become Muslim have been clearly laid out in Quran, I will list them down in random order and narration for your reference

• Firm belief in oneness of ALLAH and refraining from making partners with him. Total submission to HIM with firm belief that HE has no sons and no daughters and all of us are HIS creations
• Firm belief in day of judgement
• Firm belief in all the Messengers, Prophets and Messenger Prophets that HE has been designating from time to time for guidance of different people
• Firm belief in Quran and all the other books (every Messenger was given a book) that had been given to Messengers (peace be upon on all of them) who came before Messenger Muhammad (Peace be upon him)
• Belief in angels (Malaika), the creation of ALLAH

These are the five prerequisite for one to come to Islam (sadly the sixth one "Belief in fate had been added by men") ............. but even after fulfilling these conditions one still has to prove by his actions that he is a Muslim. In Quran it is said "Do you think their mere acceptance of Islam with their tongues is enough, they will still be judged"

Kalima is fine but believing that it is the prerequisite .... well all of the Messengers (Peace be upon them) were Muslims, it is not proven that they were asked to recite Kalima to submit to Islam.

So if a person recited the first Kalima he/she is a Muslim.

Wrong as explained above. It is a ceremonial oath and it should remain so.

Now as far as i understand and the reason that most Muslims think that Ahmadis are Kafir is because they believe that Mirza Gulam Ahmad was Imam Mehdi.

Lahori group believes that G A Mirza was Mahdi, Qadiyanis believe that he was Prophet.

Mehdi himself is a fictional character, born out of intrigues and rampant hear say business that was at its peak during Abbasid rule. Just look at the state of Muslims nearly all of them are waiting for Mehdi to come and solve their problems and bring back the glorious days, just witness the reluctance to step forward and taking ownership of their own problems, lazy rears waiting for someone to appear magically one day and get done with all the problems in no time, wage war.

Messenger Muhammad (Peace be upon him) has been called Khatim Un Nabiyeen (The seal of Messengers) which translates into the final Messenger with the final book. Why Muhammad (Peace be upon him) is the last Messenger and why there is no need for anyone else to come after him with a new book? It seems that it was all planned with gradually evolving mental level of humans. Quran has passed the test of times and remained uncorrupted, if it had been the case similar to all other books a new better book must have been revealed .... but no that is not the case, with passage of time it is becoming more and more evident that Quran is the final guidance for all the humanity to come. You should read and study Quran (without consulting centuries old man written interpretations) for both guidance and knowledge scientific and social. It will amaze you.

Now coming to G A Mirza if he claimed to be Mehdi ......... then one can read critically all the historic narratives in support of and against appearing of Mehdi ........ I am pass that stage and I believe there is no Mehdi coming, anyone with righteous intentions and character can be a Mehdi of his times plus I firmly believe that Our (both as Muslim and humans) condition is not going to improve unless we ourselves strive to improve it (as already told by Quran). So even if he claimed to be Mehdi it doesn't matter but what went wrong is his claim divided the Muslims (which I have already stated is against Quran and Islam and a sin one level above shirk).

On the other hand if Mirza claimed to be a Prophet then educated well versed Qadiyanis need to inform us how he passes the test of "Khatim un Nabiyeen"? Where is the better book? Where is the stamp from Messenger Muhammad that Mirza would appear as Prophet? Look at Quran and its way of addressing humans and look at how Mirza sb addressed the people. And let me be very honest here even Jesus is not coming back ..... its all already in Quran about Jesus. And if you wish you can read Kamal Salibi an Egyptian Christian to confirm that Jesus of Quran is very different from Jesus that we know of.

Now i have done some research on what makes a person Kafir and the conclusion i have come across is that by believing that Mirza is Imam Mehdi doesn't make them Kafir instead it makes them Munafiq.

Don't know about Kafir munafiq or whatever but in my very unlearned view they are pretty educated people who got misguided.

 

[Imad.Khan]

Okay then lets see how far this goes.



I am sorry I may sound some self righteous nutcase but here is the thing .... Sunni, Shia, Ahle Hadeeth, Baralvi, Hanafi, Deobandi etc etc etc and all future sects that remained to be formed to accomplish that goal of 72 sects are all creations out of history written by men ......... all of these have nothing to do with Islam ........ a Muslim cannot be a Sunni, Shia, or whatever other divisions we have created out of our insecurities and ignorance and labelled them to be true Islam. One should try researching and studying Quran and understand that sectarianism is a sin (wrong doing) placed one level above shirk (making partners with one and only ALLAH all mighty).



Kalima is a ceremonial oath and not a prerequisite for one to be become Muslim or accept Islam. The conditions for one to become Muslim have been clearly laid out in Quran, I will list them down in random order and narration for your reference

• Firm belief in oneness of ALLAH and refraining from making partners with him. Total submission to HIM with firm belief that HE has no sons and no daughters and all of us are HIS creations
• Firm belief in day of judgement
• Firm belief in all the Messengers, Prophets and Messenger Prophets that HE has been designating from time to time for guidance of different people
• Firm belief in Quran and all the other books (every Messenger was given a book) that had been given to Messengers (peace be upon on all of them) who came before Messenger Muhammad (Peace be upon him)
• Belief in angels (Malaika), the creation of ALLAH

These are the five prerequisite for one to come to Islam (sadly the sixth one "Belief in fate had been added by men") ............. but even after fulfilling these conditions one still has to prove by his actions that he is a Muslim. In Quran it is said "Do you think their mere acceptance of Islam with their tongues is enough, they will still be judged"

Kalima is fine but believing that it is the prerequisite .... well all of the Messengers (Peace be upon them) were Muslims, it is not proven that they were asked to recite Kalima to submit to Islam.



Wrong as explained above. It is a ceremonial oath and it should remain so.



Lahori group believes that G A Mirza was Mahdi, Qadiyanis believe that he was Prophet.

Mehdi himself is a fictional character, born out of intrigues and rampant hear say business that was at its peak during Abbasid rule. Just look at the state of Muslims nearly all of them are waiting for Mehdi to come and solve their problems and bring back the glorious days, just witness the reluctance to step forward and taking ownership of their own problems, lazy rears waiting for someone to appear magically one day and get done with all the problems in no time, wage war.

Messenger Muhammad (Peace be upon him) has been called Khatim Un Nabiyeen (The seal of Messengers) which translates into the final Messenger with the final book. Why Muhammad (Peace be upon him) is the last Messenger and why there is no need for anyone else to come after him with a new book? It seems that it was all planned with gradually evolving mental level of humans. Quran has passed the test of times and remained uncorrupted, if it had been the case similar to all other books a new better book must have been revealed .... but no that is not the case, with passage of time it is becoming more and more evident that Quran is the final guidance for all the humanity to come. You should read and study Quran (without consulting centuries old man written interpretations) for both guidance and knowledge scientific and social. It will amaze you.

Now coming to G A Mirza if he claimed to be Mehdi ......... then one can read critically all the historic narratives in support of and against appearing of Mehdi ........ I am pass that stage and I believe there is no Mehdi coming, anyone with righteous intentions and character can be a Mehdi of his times plus I firmly believe that Our (both as Muslim and humans) condition is not going to improve unless we ourselves strive to improve it (as already told by Quran). So even if he claimed to be Mehdi it doesn't matter but what went wrong is his claim divided the Muslims (which I have already stated is against Quran and Islam and a sin one level above shirk).

On the other hand if Mirza claimed to be a Prophet then educated well versed Qadiyanis need to inform us how he passes the test of "Khatim un Nabiyeen"? Where is the better book? Where is the stamp from Messenger Muhammad that Mirza would appear as Prophet? Look at Quran and its way of addressing humans and look at how Mirza sb addressed the people. And let me be very honest here even Jesus is not coming back ..... its all already in Quran about Jesus. And if you wish you can read Kamal Salibi an Egyptian Christian to confirm that Jesus of Quran is very different from Jesus that we know of.



Don't know about Kafir munafiq or whatever but in my very unlearned view they are pretty educated people who got misguided.

See that wasn't too bad was it? there are some things i agree with and somethings i don't, i will give a detail reply later as i am at work now.

 

[H!TchHiker]

Did you changed the Kalima? App pe tou sidha sidha blasphemy case banne ga
To be a Muslim you have to recite View attachment 430530
Now translate it again in Urdu or English please.

Please, refer to the context in which it was said "Believe to be a Muslim"..You claim being a Muslim and then put question mark on the Finality of Prophet i need not to say further...If you believe that HIS finality is not final there is nothing to debate....

 

[SoulSpokesman]

@Syed.Ali.Haider,

The writer should actually read and understand the consequences of the Objectives Resolution, passed long before in 1949. He is finding fault with the building without looking at its very foundation.

You are evidently not familiar with the author. He has criticized OR49 and believes that it opened the path to much of what has happened later.

Regards