My Question ? If JF 17 is capable enough why we are purchasing even used F16

[OTTOMAN]

Kudos to your "Logic" sir
Will / can a fully loaded F-16 pull 9G ?

As you have noticed... they are not only low level in basic science education but also come from specific culture...
You can read tons of their arguments, which are nothing but dialogues without substance and knowledge...

 

[OTTOMAN]

F-16 MLU
7393 kg empty weight, 3249 kg fuel, 10791 kg thrust.
Thus with half fuel and 500 kg weapons it will have 1.13 TWR

JF-17
6586 kg empty weigh, 2300 kg fuel, 8600kg thrust
Thus with half fuel and 500 kg weapons it will have 1.04 TWR

G-rate of F-16 is 9 and JF-17 is 8.


Not of course. When we talk about agility we mean in fighter configuration.

This is very unfair comparison
If F-16 has to be compared with same amount of load as JF-17, than it should not be credited for the higher payload it can carry.
In fair comparison of agility, F-16 has to fly with full pay load as per its specs. (7'500 kg) and F-17 has to fly with full pay load as per its own specs. (5'000 kg) than we shall evaluate the agility, what are the parameters for agility? TWR alone? Actually its the over all design!, where i modestly stated before 'JF-17 is not far behind'.
TWR of JF-17 is touted to be above 1.1, while the thrust figures of RD-93 available on the web are from the time, when JF-17 was flying as prototype about 15 years ago. Whereas TWR of F-16 is hardly 1.1. Now, everyone is free to derive whatever it can with these facts.

regarding g-loads; how 9 G is an advantage over 8.6 G (official figure), when we are talking multi role here !!!
Show me an example of an airwar, where F-16 was pulling full G?

all this micro level lead on specs. is overshadowed by the huge gain JF-17 draw over F-16 due to low RCS.

While before entering the discussion, i asked which F-16 are we comparing here? blk-52! than sure its a notch above, until today! Is PAF buying F-16 blk-52 it again? answer: big NO.
While, the discussion is about what PAF is buying i.e. used F-16 such as the one from Jordan!

Future JF-17 with improved engine, AESA radar, IFR and array of weapons, overrun F-16 blk-52 conveniently. We should stop living in past and prepare to embrace the future realities.

shadowed or not if intake is full filling the Engine Combustion air need then that's it doesn't matter shadowed or not.

This is bloody new science

JF-17 has 2 intakes while F-16 have single intake! Where lies the advantage? twin intakes.
Design would be like single intake is enough to feed the required air... and in after burner mode no one is dog fighting.

Sure, keep telling yourself that.

Why you failed to read obvious 'BRAND NEW' !
As they say 'hate makes you blind'

 

[princefaisal]

We need to replace 250 plane within 5 years b/c all our fleet is old third generations. If we produce 25 planes per year then we requires 10 years and it will hurt PAF, Thus used F16 is a good option

This is the main reason. Handsome quantity of 4th generation aircrafts must be maintained against 200 Su-30s and 100 Mirage 2000/Mig-29s of Indian airforce.

 

[That Guy]

Why you failed to read obvious 'BRAND NEW' !
As they say 'hate makes you blind'

Playing semantics won't win you any points.

Also, I don't hate you, I just find you extremely annoying.

 

[OTTOMAN]

Playing semantics won't win you any points.

Now we know, you have sickness of hallucination and fork the points.

Also, I don't hate you, I just find you extremely annoying.

Take medicine for your sickness.

This is the main reason. Handsome quantity of 4th generation aircrafts must be maintained against 200 Su-30s and 100 Mirage 2000/Mig-29s of Indian airforce.

Do you know, during Zardari rule intruding Indian mirages were locked by so called 3rd generation Pakistani interceptors?

Kindly also help us understand the difference between SU-27 and SU-30
Where do you see 200 SU and 100 Mirage?
India’s New Fighters Have Serious Engine Problems — War Is Boring — Medium

While comparing the specs. we keep forgetting the most important aspect i.e. man behind the machine which makes real difference and Pakistani pilots have taken out 4.5 generation fighters in mockup fights, whereas those glorified SU30 were humiliated in red flag exercise vs. F-16 flown by far lower quality pilots than PAF.
Rest i don't have to remind you about the history of PAF air wars!

 

[That Guy]

Now we know, you have sickness of hallucination and fork the points.

Sure, sure. Whatever you say.

 

[500]

In fair comparison of agility, F-16 has to fly with full pay load as per its specs. (7'500 kg) and F-17 has to fly with full pay load as per its own specs. (5'000 kg) than we shall evaluate the agility,

You are not doing dogfight with 7500 kg of bombs.

 

[Quwa]

Surplus F-16s - when upgraded - can present the PAF with a sizable number of potent and demonstrably mature fighters on a budget and in a relatively short period of time. The fact that the PAF has the requisite infrastructure (from physical assets to trained manpower) to readily induct A/Bs and C/Ds, and - JF-17 notwithstanding - the introduction of more such fighters will give PAF a serious boost.

As for technology, the PAF could request the F-16V (new-build and upgrade kits for surplus airframes).

 

[princefaisal]

Where do you see 200 SU and 100 Mirage?
India’s New Fighters Have Serious Engine Problems — War Is Boring — Medium

While comparing the specs. we keep forgetting the most important aspect i.e. man behind the machine which makes real difference and Pakistani pilots have taken out 4.5 generation fighters in mockup fights, whereas those glorified SU30 were humiliated in red flag exercise vs. F-16 flown by far lower quality pilots than PAF.
Rest i don't have to remind you about the history of PAF air wars!

Best pilot training & tactics do play major role in war. But never under-estimate the tactics of opponents. Similarly skills level varies from person to person. Next time Su30 pilots may come with better & new tactics after learning their mistakes. However PAF pilots must be trained enough to prevent & block any air strike from the latest Israeli F-16s and F-15s.

 

[Erroroverload]

Best pilot training & tactics do play major role in war. But never under-estimate the tactics of opponents. Similarly skills level varies from person to person. Next time Su30 pilots may come with better & new tactics after learning their mistakes. However PAF pilots must be trained enough to prevent & block any air strike from the latest Israeli F-16s and F-15s.

Israel will not do this blunder....
it is not 1980

 

[Ray_of_Hope]

Best pilot training & tactics do play major role in war. But never under-estimate the tactics of opponents. Similarly skills level varies from person to person. Next time Su30 pilots may come with better & new tactics after learning their mistakes. However PAF pilots must be trained enough to prevent & block any air strike from the latest Israeli F-16s and F-15s.

Be realistic dude

 

[OTTOMAN]

Surplus F-16s - when upgraded - can present the PAF with a sizable number of potent and demonstrably mature fighters on a budget and in a relatively short period of time. The fact that the PAF has the requisite infrastructure (from physical assets to trained manpower) to readily induct A/Bs and C/Ds, and - JF-17 notwithstanding - the introduction of more such fighters will give PAF a serious boost.

As for technology, the PAF could request the F-16V (new-build and upgrade kits for surplus airframes).

I beg to disagree..
1- Surplus F-16 are not available, proposing some thing impossible is not worth discussing.
2- Used F-16 are only upgradeable, if they are not done with airframe life and what is their physical state and there's a limit to which certain airframe can be upgraded.
3- Upgrades are budget solution vs. F-17 blk3.... NO
4- F-17 has been flown vs F-16 in Pakistan and only PAF can tell, in whose favor the result were, rest of the world have no grounds to make any sort of claim.

Only favorable condition F-16 have in PAF is that we have mastered its flying, and old PAF brass is bit nostalgic towards it. In next 10 years, there would be no one left in PAF who would wish to buy more F-16 at market price.
Jordan F-16 were only available for Pakistan, upon Saudi persuading, I don't see more prospects of it happening soon.

 

[CHI RULES]

Surplus F-16s - when upgraded - can present the PAF with a sizable number of potent and demonstrably mature fighters on a budget and in a relatively short period of time. The fact that the PAF has the requisite infrastructure (from physical assets to trained manpower) to readily induct A/Bs and C/Ds, and - JF-17 notwithstanding - the introduction of more such fighters will give PAF a serious boost.

As for technology, the PAF could request the F-16V (new-build and upgrade kits for surplus airframes).

In the past I have discussed prospects of upgrading F16s with AESA radars however my arguments were plainly dismissed by senior members on grounds of cost issues as we have already spent enough money on MLU. Further I am adding fact that due to strings attached perhaps we may not go for an Italian Aesa radar for our F16s, so we may request F16V but can't get it. Plainly US senate will not allow it secondly we can't afford it specially considering other ongoing projects.

Perhaps we should invest more on JF17 block -III along with opportunity to get a squadron or two of J series from China for deep strike missions both for PAF and especially for Navy having only support of vintage Mirrage Vs.

We should have following features in block-III of JF17 i.e Further low RCS, high thurst engines Chinese or any other, high ceiling above 62000 feet, AESA radar with relatively longer range, IRST, Mach 2+ sustainable speed, next gen EW suite, SD10 next version i.e with longer range and longer no escape zone.

Guys perhaps time is their to say good bye to further F16s. During cost comparison we should also check the cost of up gradation required for F16 additionally along with their overhaul/servicing. Further if we use same engine for expected J series Jet and JF17 then maintenance shall be economical and simpler.

Despite strong opposition I support Ottoman on many valid points.

 

[OTTOMAN]

You are not doing dogfight with 7500 kg of bombs.

I'm not doing dog fight, I'm arguing the parameters set by you for comparison of agility.
If I wanted to nit pick, I would drag on with your comment of air intake nonsense.

 

[500]

I'm not doing dog fight, I'm arguing the parameters set by you for comparison of agility.

When you compare fighter agility u best is to use typical dogfight configuration: half fuel and 4 AAM.

Using max payload as u suggest does not make any sense at all.

If I wanted to nit pick, I would drag on with your comment of air intake nonsense.

What I said is plain and simple fact: one of the side intakes is shadowed during turns.