My Question ? If JF 17 is capable enough why we are purchasing even used F16

[ACE OF THE AIR]

@500 the F-16 data you are using is of IDF. These are one of the most advance Block 52's so you can not compare them to the ones other have.

 

[CHI RULES]

When you compare fighter agility u best is to use typical dogfight configuration: half fuel and 4 AAM.

Using max payload as u suggest does not make any sense at all.


What I said is plain and simple fact: one of the side intakes is shadowed during turns.

Sir,
Israel has history of cooperating with China in Tech in the past how u rate J series Chinese jets like J10b,J11b or J16. Considering their specs one clearly gets positive impression along with superiority over F16s even of Block 52, as AESA has no match along with IRST and other next gen techs. I shall appreciate ur solid remarks based on facts. Thks in advance.

 

[500]

Sir,
Israel has history of cooperating with China in Tech in the past how u rate J series Chinese jets like J10b,J11b or J16. Considering their specs one clearly gets positive impression along with superiority over F16s even of Block 52, as AESA has no match along with IRST and other next gen techs. I shall appreciate ur solid remarks based on facts. Thks in advance.

I already made an assessment in older thread (post #11):

Modern multirole fighter assessment

1. F-22 --------------------- 99
2. F-35A ------------------- 87
3. Su-35 ------------------- 81
4. Typhoon (AESA) ----- 78
5. F-15SG ----------------- 77
6. Su-30MKI (AESA) -- 76
7. Rafale (AESA) -------- 71
8. Typhoon ---------------- 70
9. MiG-35 ------------------- 69
10. F-18E ------------------- 68
11. Su-30MKI -------------- 68
12. J-10B (AESA) -------- 68
13. Rafale ------------------- 67
14. F-2A --------------------- 66
15. F-16E ------------------- 66
16. Gripen NG ------------- 64
17. J-10A -------------------- 61
18. JF-17 (AESA) -------- 59
19. Gripen ------------------- 56
20. JF-17 --------------------- 55

J-11B should be similar to regular Su-30MKI and J-16 to Su-30MKI with AESA.

 

[Bilal.]

@500 what if the next version of JFT not only has AESA but also uprated engine 9300-9500 KgF. Along with other improvements like 4600 Kg payload, IRST, dedicated hard point for pods, HMDS/HOBS combo and IFR. How would that effect the above score?

 

[Quwa]

I beg to disagree..
1- Surplus F-16 are not available, proposing some thing impossible is not worth discussing.
2- Used F-16 are only upgradeable, if they are not done with airframe life and what is their physical state and there's a limit to which certain airframe can be upgraded.
3- Upgrades are budget solution vs. F-17 blk3.... NO
4- F-17 has been flown vs F-16 in Pakistan and only PAF can tell, in whose favor the result were, rest of the world have no grounds to make any sort of claim.

Only favorable condition F-16 have in PAF is that we have mastered its flying, and old PAF brass is bit nostalgic towards it. In next 10 years, there would be no one left in PAF who would wish to buy more F-16 at market price.
Jordan F-16 were only available for Pakistan, upon Saudi persuading, I don't see more prospects of it happening soon.

The U.S is marketing surplus F-16s to various countries at every turn, the airframes (from across the spectrum, A/B to C/D) are definitely available, it is up to the PAF to request them. As for upgrades, we trust the PAF to select airframes with enough flight time on them, and even then structural upgrades such as Falcon STAR exist to ensure that the F-16's airframe reaches its 8000 hour lifespan. And we full well know the PAF is capable of dogging out more.

As for buying the Jordanian F-16s upon Saudi Arabia's request, what evidence do you have for this?

In the past I have discussed prospects of upgrading F16s with AESA radars however my arguments were plainly dismissed by senior members on grounds of cost issues as we have already spent enough money on MLU. Further I am adding fact that due to strings attached perhaps we may not go for an Italian Aesa radar for our F16s, so we may request F16V but can't get it. Plainly US senate will not allow it secondly we can't afford it specially considering other ongoing projects.

Perhaps we should invest more on JF17 block -III along with opportunity to get a squadron or two of J series from China for deep strike missions both for PAF and especially for Navy having only support of vintage Mirrage Vs.

We should have following features in block-III of JF17 i.e Further low RCS, high thurst engines Chinese or any other, high ceiling above 62000 feet, AESA radar with relatively longer range, IRST, Mach 2+ sustainable speed, next gen EW suite, SD10 next version i.e with longer range and longer no escape zone.

Guys perhaps time is their to say good bye to further F16s. During cost comparison we should also check the cost of up gradation required for F16 additionally along with their overhaul/servicing. Further if we use same engine for expected J series Jet and JF17 then maintenance shall be economical and simpler.

Despite strong opposition I support Ottoman on many valid points.

You're greatly pushing what JF-17 Block-III will be in terms of its improvements. I don't doubt the improved avionics or AESA radar or even IRST, but there's no clear indication of an improved engine or modified airframe. There's a theory that some parts of the JF-17's airframe can be swapped out for composite versions, but that's a theory, not fact.

As for not being able to get F-16V. Were you around to see what would happen if someone in 2003-2004 said the PAF will get F-16 Block-52+ with not only AIM-120C5, but JHMCS and JDAM? It was absolutely impossible, but look at where we're now today. The U.S doesn't want to burn whatever influence it has in the operational level of the Pakistani military, and it fully understands that F-16s are a vital pillar for its bridge in the PAF. Say "no" over the F-16s, then the PAF will shut the U.S out, and it would only be a matter of time before the rest of the armed forces do as well. The Americans, across both Repubican and Democratic lines, do not want this to happen.

 

[500]

@500 what if the next version of JFT not only has AESA but also uprated engine 9300-9500 KgF. Along with other improvements like 4600 Kg payload, IRST, dedicated hard point for pods, HMDS/HOBS combo and IFR. How would that effect the above score?

Then it will be similar to Gripen NG.

 

[princefaisal]

I already made an assessment in older thread (post #11):

Modern multirole fighter assessment

1. F-22 --------------------- 99
2. F-35A ------------------- 87
3. Su-35 ------------------- 81
4. Typhoon (AESA) ----- 78
5. F-15SG ----------------- 77
6. Su-30MKI (AESA) -- 76
7. Rafale (AESA) -------- 71
8. Typhoon ---------------- 70
9. MiG-35 ------------------- 69
10. F-18E ------------------- 68
11. Su-30MKI -------------- 68
12. J-10B (AESA) -------- 68
13. Rafale ------------------- 67
14. F-2A --------------------- 66
15. F-16E ------------------- 66
16. Gripen NG ------------- 64
17. J-10A -------------------- 61
18. JF-17 (AESA) -------- 59
19. Gripen ------------------- 56
20. JF-17 --------------------- 55

J-11B should be similar to regular Su-30MKI and J-16 to Su-30MKI with AESA.

So PAF should focus on procuring Su-35 and J-10B (AESA).