My PAK-FA analysis

[gogbot]

woopss.. looks like i just gave your brain a seizure. no wonder why such a street junki reaction, you have clearly portrayed yourself.
btw. back to the topic.
PAK-FA is not stealthy as F-35
If any modification on air frame are to be done then IAF dead line for 2017 induction will be stretched 2-3 more years and still superior american stealth and 5th generation technology will be ahead of Russian.

When dialogue fails there is always face palm

 

[baba firangi]

Pigs are worshiped as gods in India/Hindu culture.

Pigs are everywhere in the history of worship, from the Greeks and Egyptians, through to the Romans.. BTW Indian/Hindu culture believes that God is in everything, and they revere life as well as death.. Not just pigs, we also worship equipments that include machines, tools and even weapons..

so stop making a mockery out of yourself because i have just over dosed pathological liar indian fanboys with reality check. bunch of street junkies.

Wowwww.. "PATHOLOGICAL LIAR" once again..
I M LOVING IT...

 

[baba firangi]

woopss.. looks like i just gave your brain a seizure. no wonder why such a street junki reaction, you have clearly portrayed yourself.

btw. back to the topic.

Thankfully..

PAK-FA is not stealthy as F-35

Back to square one.. JF-17 for once, can be made stealthy in future.. But PAK-FA Which was built from ground-up for stealth, is just not stealthy enough.. Gem of a LOGIC..
And you already know the RCS of PAK-FA as compared to F-35?
Oh, it must be your inside sources i assume.. or maybe you saw that looking into a crystal ball.. Or is it according to the calculations you made after looking at the position of planets wrt the stars and the zodiac.. Or maybe PAK-FA ke janam-kundali me Mangalik dosh hai..
Oh is it all because the PAK-FA just doesn't look stealthy.. What should it look like then so that it would LOOK STEALTHY ENOUGH as F-35 to your taste?? Should we design it like a bathtub, or a knife or maybe like a tomato, or best of all, like a JF-17, the radars would surely be confused then .. Please advise us oo dronacharya of stealthology.. After all you can soo accurately determine the RCS of an aircraft just by looking at its pic on your computer screen and even put your expert opinion that PAK-FA is not as stealthy as F-35..

Jaahanpanah-- Tussi great ho--Tohfa kubool karo...

If any modification on air frame are to be done then IAF dead line for 2017 induction will be stretched 2-3 more years and still superior american stealth and 5th generation technology will be ahead of Russian.

I'd agree to that one.. Americans' 5th gen technology will always be ahead of Russians for now.. They got big pockets and years of head-start with F-22.. The russians have always had a different approach.. They like keeping things SIMPLE-STUPID.. And it works...

 

[foxbat]

woopss.. looks like i just gave your brain a seizure. no wonder why such a street junki reaction, you have clearly portrayed yourself.
btw. back to the topic.
PAK-FA is not stealthy as F-35
If any modification on air frame are to be done then IAF dead line for 2017 induction will be stretched 2-3 more years and still superior american stealth and 5th generation technology will be ahead of Russian.

Doesnt matter..does it?? PAK FA in the near future doesnt need to go against the american stealth technology anytime soon..

 

[Mahakaya]

Andrey Lagarjkov, Director General of the United Institute of High Temperatures of the Russian Academy of Sciences (and an Associate Member of the Academy), talks about Russian stealth technology in the following interview with the Russia/CIS Observer.

Until recently, all Russian developments in the field of stealth technologies were strictly classified. There weren't any reports made concerning research institutes dealing with these issues. The veil was raised somewhat last year when it was announced for the first time that the United Institute of High Temperatures of the Russian Academy of Sciences was carrying out research in the domain of reduced aircraft visibility. The information was rather sketchy. It was reported that the institute is specialized in creating materials with new properties, in particular with ferromagnetics and so-called artificial magnetics. It was pointed out that technologies developed by the institute were used in designing and manufacturing the Sukhoi Su-27M and Su-37 (Su-47). Director General Lagarjkov, who hasn't spoken about such matters in public before, told Sergey Sokut about work of his institute in greater detail.

How does Russia's way of making aircraft stealthy differ from the American technology?

- The Americans have two approaches. The first, and earliest one, was used for the F-117 and B-2. The low radar cross-section (RCS) was achieved through the shape of the aircraft and the use of radar-absorbing materials to cover the airframe. In this application, the principle of minimal level of visibility was a cornerstone - and other characteristics had to be sacrificed. For example, both aircraft are subsonic. Later the Americans tried another approach: modern radar absorbing materials are applied to F-16 and F-18, as well as to 5th generation F-22 and JSF combat aircraft, which have a traditional shape. The low level of visibility is achieved through different techniques, which Mikhail Pogosyan, director of Sukhoi, and I are going to reveal in the near future. We and the Americans are close to each other in this type of technology. Russia possesses the technology for upgrading in-service aircraft with modern stealth characteristics, and moreover, this technology is demanded by foreign operators of Russian aircraft. We, together with Sukhoi, have achieved world-class results in this area, which are confirmed by tests of real aircraft. We also can optimize the shape of the aircraft to lower the level of visibility, but I still wouldn't like to speak about the use of our techniques for 5th generation aircraft.

When would it be possible to speak about achieved results?

- Some discussion is possible today. The exact results of radar cross-section reduction will never be disclosed, neither here in Russia nor abroad. But sometime ago it was announced that the RCS of a MiG-21 fighter after its treatment by our institute is approximately 0.25 sq m. This corresponds to the characteristics of a cruise missile.

How far is it possible to go in reducing visibility of the 4th generation aircraft, and what additional improvements can be achieved in the next generation?

- My MiG-21 example demonstrates that the RCS of upgraded/modernized aircraft can be reduced 12-15 times. If we speak about new designed models, I wouldn't want to discuss the numbers publically.

In the press, information has been published about exotic technologies for providing low visibility, for example, plasma. How effective is it?

- We use plasma in solving the problems of RCS of an aircraft's nosecone. In general, plasma technologies are very useful at flight altitudes of more than 25 km. At low altitudes it is impossible to use them, because there is not enough power on board.

What is the share of stealth technologies in the total aircraft cost?

- If stringent, but reasonable requirements for visibility are implemented in the project from the very beginning, it won't be too large. I'd like to point out here that at my institue, we have carried out advanced work in fundamental research. I also want to stress here that we had to do this without governmental support - funding our research from out-of-budget sources during the last 10-15 years.

It is known that you cooperate closely with Sukhoi. What about the institute's work with other design bureaus?

- Recently, we have started cooperating intensively with the others as well.

If we compare achievements of different countries in the reduction of aircraft visibility, who would the leaders be? Obviously, the Americans would hit the top, wouldn't they?

- The Americans are no. 1 because of the application of stealth to a large volume of real products. But considering the understanding of the whole problem in general - and the potential - I don't think the Americans are better than we are. We are able to achieve, and already have achieved, the same - and even in some areas, we have had somewhat better results. Another plus for the Americans is their broader application of stealth. In particular, they are entering the world market with the stealthy aircraft. Similar developments are being made in Europe, but the level of these countries is not so high. The French are tackling this problem as well. They have very good research equipment - anechoic chambers, for example. Their Rafale fighter is advertised as an aircraft with a low radar cross-section.

Some Interesting News that came in sometime ago:

Any idea what the implications might be for the PAK-FA? Are we planning to work on a NAVAL Version as well!

Besides if India does buy the JSF in the future - What would it mean for the PAK-FA?

..:: India Strategic ::.. Indian Navy: US offers F 35 to India as India-US Defence Cooperation grows

woopss.. looks like i just gave your brain a seizure. no wonder why such a street junki reaction, you have clearly portrayed yourself.
btw. back to the topic.
PAK-FA is not stealthy as F-35
If any modification on air frame are to be done then IAF dead line for 2017 induction will be stretched 2-3 more years and still superior american stealth and 5th generation technology will be ahead of Russian.

Ahem - you know you will never fail to AMUSE me but yes you can be quite boring!

Also you surely did not read Marcos's post - so have posted it again with relevant portions in BOLD - read it up LOSER!

For the MODIFICATION PART - WELL HE QUOTES AN EXAMPLE OF MIG 21 in the interview! I wonder if any airframe modifications were done on that - If thy can bring down the RCS of a mig 21 12-13 times down, they can do so to the PAKFA as well considering the PAK-FA prototype did not have any RAM coatings on it among other things like newer engines and frameless canopy - yet it was able to get an RCS value (and I believe it was the OVERALL RCS not just FRONTAL) of 0.5sqM.

If I would just use the quoted figures here from the MIG 21 example and apply that to the present PAK-FA form without the frameless canopy and new engines we get a value of .04m2 and this is based on old model not the "NEW MODELS" about which the scientist above seems to be very optimistic and INDIANS HAVE FULL FAITH IN THE RUSSIANS!

NOW BACK TO UR JF - GET OVER IT - YOU DONOT HAVE THE MONEY TO UPGRADE IT! U ALSO DONT HAVE THE MONEY TO GET A 5th GEN OR THE POLITICAL CLOUT TO OBTAIN IT! - APART FROM THE CHINESE - WHOSE OTHER PLANES HAVE YET TO SEE SOME REAL ACTION

You could not even come with confirmed numbers for future PAF acquisitions - I gave you numbers which are backed by media reports all over the INTERNET and the biggest proof was the LIVEFIST blog URL.

As for the JSFs - even if they are better in tech - they have already been offered to us check the URL above that I posted.

NOW SERIOUSLY STFU - LIKE I SAID I WILL TETHER UR LOGIC AND STATEMENTS IF NOT BACKED BY ANY PROOF TO SUPPORT UR CLAIMS OR BASE UR OPINIONS ON!

 

[sancho]

India is going to get aesa for mrca, lca and fgfa. We will have tot. And already working on an aesa.
Also, kaveri program/mrca tot may help us in indigenous engine development. After all, we will be having ngfa program running by that time.
There is a slight chance that we may come up with a reasonably good aesa on our own, by the time fgfa comes in our hand.

Not really! Please guys lets be realistic, if we can't develop an AESA and engine that is good enough to suit LCA (IAF stated that end wants now foreign partners for both), there is no way (even with ToT of MMRCA), that we can develop an AESA, or engine for FGFA till 2017/18, that would be comparable to Pak Fa AESA, or AL 41 engine. Just to remind you, the radar is said to have a detection range of 400Km and the engine offers SC and 3D TVC, with a thrust of 140+ kN!
We might use the ToT and the co-development on Kaveri and AESA of LCA, to further development and use in MCA, but that is still more than a decade away.
So if we don't get anything comparable from a reliable western country, we will keep most of Pak Fa techs of course!

Here is a latest Russian source, that says something about the differences between Pak Fa and FGFA:

Russia successfully tests Sukhoi T-50 Stealth fighter jet

MOSCOW. (RIA Novosti military commentator Ilya Kramnik) - On December 29, 2010, a prototype Sukhoi T-50 fifth-generation fighter took off on its maiden flight at 11.19 a.m. in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, Russia's Far East...

...All these problems are caused by Russia's crisis-ridden industry.

The new aircraft is designated the T-50, Product 701 or the I-21. The Indian Air Force also displayed an interest in this program soon after it was launched.

At first, New Delhi preferred the lighter and simpler Mikoyan-Gurevich MFI fighter. The Russian Aircraft Corporation MiG proposed the twin-engined and bobtailed I-2000, an upgrade of the basic MiG-29 model, and a single-engined aircraft closely resembling the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II, a descendant of the F-35, which came out of the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) program.

India wanted to receive this sophisticated aircraft as soon as possible therefore had no choice but to join the PAK FA program. The Indian version will feature a two-seat cockpit, a number of electronic systems and other auxiliary equipment.

These aircraft are expected to replace the Su-30MKI Flanker-H fighters currently serving with the Indian Air Force, in the 2020s and the 2030s. Moreover, it is likely they will be mass-produced in India...

Russia successfully tests Sukhoi T-50 Stealth fighter jet | Top Russian news and analysis online | 'RIA Novosti' newswire

 

[saurabh]

Not really! Please guys lets be realistic, if we can't develop an AESA and engine that is good enough to suit LCA (IAF stated that end wants now foreign partners for both), there is no way (even with ToT of MMRCA), that we can develop an AESA, or engine for FGFA till 2017/18, that would be comparable to Pak Fa AESA, or AL 41 engine. Just to remind you, the radar is said to have a detection range of 400Km and the engine offers SC and 3D TVC, with a thrust of 140+ kN!
We might use the ToT and the co-development on Kaveri and AESA of LCA, to further development and use in MCA, but that is still more than a decade away.
So if we don't get anything comparable from a reliable western country, we will keep most of Pak Fa techs of course!

Why such a negative attitude. May we can't, may be we can. DRDO has prepared t/r module for aesa. And we dont know anything about Indian development or Russian radar. And 10 years is a long period. Look at the recent developments of HAL and DRDO. In past few years, budget and output both has increased.

 

[gambit]

Diverting airflow also usually helps the engines work better at supersonic speeds, for instance, look at the intakes of the Mig-21 and SR-71, or look at the intakes of the F-35, they all divert airflow. With that being said i'm sure the Pak fa's intakes are designed with the purpose of radar deflection rather than high speed perfomance, but perhaps it also improves airflow at higher speeds.

Turbo<whatever> engines does not tolerate well supersonic air entering the compression chambers. Fixed inlets will have some sort of 'channeling' to slow airflow down to subsonic, still, aircrafts that are supposedly supersonic capable but with fixed inlets will be limited to around Mach 1.5 for engine longevity reasons. Variable inlets, like the complicated ones on the SR-71, will allow the aircraft to fly at supersonic regime without too much concern for engine health, provided the variable inlet design works as claimed.

 

[sancho]

Why such a negative attitude. May we can't, may be we can. DRDO has prepared t/r module for aesa. And we dont know anything about Indian development or Russian radar. And 10 years is a long period. Look at the recent developments of HAL and DRDO. In past few years, budget and output both has increased.

You can call it negative, I prefer realistic!

This is an quote from an article posted in the MCA thread:

IAF seems to be clear that it wants most of the Avionics and Engine for NGFA to be indigenous, Specially the AESA Radar; it seems IAF will not settle for AESA which has been developed by LRDE for Tejas Mk-II, it want to be more sophisticated then the Current AESA technology what LDRE is working on and better Avionics and Self-defence systems for the aircraft which will take lot of time unless similar Pak-Fa Avionics package is chosen.

And the latest news is, that we search officially for an foreign partner that can help us with LCA MK2 radar! So if that is done, IAF hope, we will be able to develop a sophisticated AESA for MCA for 2020 and beyond!
FGFA should arrive inbetween and those Russian techs have already such an edge, that I simply don't see how we should fill that big gap.
Not to forget that integrating other techs, especially such main techs like different engine and radar will need quiet sometime, what would delay FGFA too.
However this is only my opinon and u can feel free to disagree of course!

 

[saurabh]

You can call it negative, I prefer realistic!

This is an quote from an article posted in the MCA thread:


And the latest news is, that we search officially for an foreign partner that can help us with LCA MK2 radar! So if that is done, IAF hope, we will be able to develop a sophisticated AESA for MCA for 2020 and beyond!
FGFA should arrive inbetween and those Russian techs have already such an edge, that I simply don't see how we should fill that big gap.
Not to forget that integrating other techs, especially such main techs like different engine and radar will need quiet sometime, what would delay FGFA too.
However this is only my opinon and u can feel free to disagree of course!

Don't take foreign help that lightly. I have seen first hand how just a little initial help speeds up the development. Also, the govt has now shown sincerity towards the program, pumping in lot of money.
Russians had to reinvent the wheel. Hopefully, we will not have to.

 

[Dark Angel]

India Boost For T-50



"That, ladies and gentlemen, is the Indo-Russian fifth-generation fighter aircraft." Air Cmdr. Jasjit Singh, director of the Center for Air Power Studies in New Delhi, and a long-time strategic advisor to the Indian parliament and others, made it clear at the Asia Pacific Security Conference in Singapore today that international collaboration on the Sukhoi T-50 is - in his view at least - a done deal.


According to Singh, India is ready to invest 25 percent of the T-50 development cost and then form a 50:50 joint venture to manufacture the new fighter, with a basic requirement of 250 aircraft for each partner nation. (Officially, the deal is still in the works.)

Singh's comments on airpower represented a stark contrast with the "boot-centric warfare" attitudes that predominate in the U.S. and Europe - reflecting the history of an air force that is moving out of the land-force support role and has recently acquired its first long-range aircraft and tankers.

Specifically, Singh noted, "decisive military victory is a thing of the past between nuclear armed states - such as India and its neighbors, China and Pakistan. "Land war is limited to localized forces, below the nuclear threshold." Air power, he said, is the only instrument that can supply "the calibrated application of coercive force for political effect."


India Boost For T-50"]India Boost For T-50[/URL]

 

[dbc]

I'd agree to that one.. Americans' 5th gen technology will always be ahead of Russians for now.. They got big pockets and years of head-start with F-22.. The russians have always had a different approach.. They like keeping things SIMPLE-STUPID.. And it works...

You betcha , we started in the 70's with the 'Tacit Blue' technology demonstration program.

The key objective of the program was to reduce 'Active' and 'Passive signature'.

Passive signature includes external illumination such as sun light, magnetic and gravitational anomalies, reflection of acoustic and radar.
Reducing RCS is just one aspect there are several known and some classified techniques employed on the Raptor to minimizing the aircrafts passive signature and make it low observable.

Active signature covers all observable emissions from the stealth platform including IFF, acoustic, contrails, IR, communications, radar, laser and UV. Several of the low probability of intercept
techniques employed on the Raptor to reduce active signatures can be traced back to 'Tacit Blue'.

The Russians are just getting started with PAK-FA; they have a looooong ways to go to catch up with us

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Pigs are everywhere in the history of worship, from the Greeks and Egyptians, through to the Romans.. BTW Indian/Hindu culture believes that God is in everything, and they revere life as well as death..

Pigs are worshiped in india and thats quite a shame for the 21st century. ewwwww.

Not just pigs, we also worship equipments that include machines, tools and even weapons..

Rats, pigs, cows, dogs, monkeys, elephants. woow. no wonder why you guys act so not differently on this forum.

Wowwww.. "PATHOLOGICAL LIAR" once again..

that only defines you indians.

I M LOVING IT...

 

[Red Dwarf]

This was a good thread but not anymore......

 

[karan.1970]

This was a good thread but not anymore......

Dont complain. The guy who started it only screwed it up..

Anyway, till the next flight of Pak FA..