My PAK-FA analysis

[REHAN NIAZI FALCON]

jf-17 is 4th gen but after 1st batch of 42-50 ... it will be improved and would be made more capable with western avionics ... jf-17 is cheep and adoptable and will fill most of PAF needs because it will not produce so much burden on budget and so will be acquired in large no and also very adoptable for improvement, jf-17 block2 and 3 will be much more capable. as according to above fellow LCA is small griphen than jf-17 is smaller and cheaper f-16 because it provides most of such qualities and will improve even more in future and at this time it is better than our existing f-16 block15. so jf-17 is correct use of money

 

[REHAN NIAZI FALCON]

i am not saying it is f-16 or fc-20... but it is quite capable and why not to improve it. we have achieved a milestone in the form of jf-17 and next milestone is to make it more capable and why not it will be still much more cheep than f-16 which is round about in 50-60 million dollar ...and fc-20 40+million dollar. but it will be done step by step through experience that we are gaining through jf-17 project

 

[REHAN NIAZI FALCON]

at same time PAK-FA is great achievement for Russia and India. lets see how it proves itself in future bcos still its very beginning .....

 

[dbc]

Remember the time when we didnt even know the expanse of our own planet , when we didnt know to fly. People questioned sometimes irrationally and sometimes on the basis of knowledge but in science till the objective is reached nothing can be claimed or explained ( because there will always be detractors trying to falsify a hypothesis on the basis of existing knowledge). Such is the illusion of knowledge.

The answer to your question will only come after a few years. Till that time you can sing praises for F-22 & F-35 as the best stealth platforms in air.

ah! a spin doctor, the marketing folks over at Sukhoi will be sending out an SOS to you real soon

 

[DeathGod]

ah! a spin doctor, the marketing folks over at Sukhoi will be sending out an SOS to you real soon

Ohh so you mean to say that you already know that Sukhoi's design aint gonna be stealthy enough ( if thats the right phrase). I wonder why people like to forecast when research shows its a futile activity (though a human tendency).

To be surprised more then one expected is the hallmark of overconfidence.And many folks were truly surprised by PAK-FA so I would try and claim that overconfidence is high ( as always ) in a certain camp.

As far as the spin doctor tag goes , I would just like to say that perhaps my perspective of thinking about a situation is broader than you.

 

[dbc]

Ohh so you mean to say that you already know that Sukhoi's design aint gonna be stealthy enough ( if thats the right phrase). I wonder why people like to forecast when research shows its a futile activity (though a human tendency).

To be surprised more then one expected is the hallmark of overconfidence.And many folks were truly surprised by PAK-FA so I would try and claim that overconfidence is high ( as always ) in a certain camp.

As far as the spin doctor tag goes , I would just like to say that perhaps my perspective of thinking about a situation is broader than you.

I’m not interested in fluff Mister; let me know when you can offer any evidence to support an average all aspect RCS approaching that of the Raptor.

 

[DeathGod]

I’m not interested in fluff Mister; let me know when you can offer any evidence to support an average all aspect RCS approaching that of the Raptor.

Ahem ahem.. let me know when you can offer any evidence to support that stealth cant be achieved in any other Feasible way. Btw one doesnt need to have an RCS of Raptor to be a perfectly stealth plane. It just need to be small enough so that another platform cant resolve it and lock a missile (my guess is 0.1 should be good enough). Why such an obsession with Raptor btw? Its not even a platform which is economically viable , just an expensive toy to show around .

 

[sancho]

well no, you see it cant do that.

By design it is more expensive to make then the JF-17.

SO if we tried to make a cheap fighter, JF-17 would always be more cost effective alternative.

But what we can do is offer essentially a cheaper and small Griphen NG.

I mean if you look at it the Tejas has all the features of the Griphen.
But is easier and quicker to build,
Tejas should be marketed as Affordable High tech.

its no MKI.
But For the money you pay you get a lot of Tech.

Do you mean the delta wing design makes it more high tech, than JF 17? Wouldn't that mean Mirage 2K is more high tech than F16?

Both were aimed for the same low cost, light weight market, with similar techs and weapons.

considering its relatively lower costs of research and development (according to Harinarayana, five to six prototypes and a type-to-specific trainer will cost $1 billion) and labour could score well in a price war. Harinarayana and others on t he LCA project said that each aircraft would cost between $17 million and $20 million. The figure is debatable. In December 1996, Kalam had said that the cost would be around $21 million, while others had indicated that it would cost $24 million.

Airborne, at last

The LCA might have some advantages over JF in terms of composite using, but all main points (T/W ratio, radar, weapon stations, weapons...), will remain very comparable. I don't see a big difference there to make it more high tech.

jf-17 is 4th gen but after 1st batch of 42-50 ... it will be improved and would be made more capable with western avionics ...

But as far as it seems now, only the origin of the techs will change, but the second batch will remain 4th gen as the first with Chinese techs. Only the third batch seems to be 4+ and get AESA radars and higher quality techs.

 

[REHAN NIAZI FALCON]

dear with addition of composite material and modern avionics as may be from selix or saab .. and also rd-93b or any other will make huge difference in aircraft performance and than hope it will be in better position than 4th gen. and for LCA it can,t be compared with griphen, it is inferior to griphen.
same is for jf-17 with certain improvements i don,t say it will be in line of 4.5 gen, even f-16 block 52 is 4th gen aircraft but in better position among other 4th gen aircrafts. in nutshell our aim is simply to enhance the capabilities of aircraft. so that it fulfill our needs in better way

 

[REHAN NIAZI FALCON]

difference of price does matter in the end of the day. jf-17 with certain improvements even in 25 million dollars suits us, As compared to F-16block 50/52 round about 40-50 million dollars. i think for developing countries with limited budget jf-17 is best option.

 

[gambit]

Ahem ahem.. let me know when you can offer any evidence to support that stealth cant be achieved in any other Feasible way.

The more appropriate response would be for you, or anyone else for that matter, to show us evidences to support the argument that Raptor-like radar low observability CAN be achieved via other methods.

Btw one doesnt need to have an RCS of Raptor to be a perfectly stealth plane.

What we called 'stealth' is broad and it contain operational tactics that are not related to planform or radar absorbers to avoid radar detection. Flying below the radar horizon is one such.

It just need to be small enough so that another platform cant resolve it and lock a missile (my guess is 0.1 should be good enough).

Then forget about manned aircrafts and go with the small and slim missile.

Why such an obsession with Raptor btw? Its not even a platform which is economically viable , just an expensive toy to show around .

No obsession...Just that the F-22 is the standard. Like how Ferrari or Rolls set the standards for automobile designs and manufacturing. Either you meet the standards. Or you fail to meet the standards. No one or committee is sitting around creating these standards. This is a consensus among the world's military powers that the F-22 and its relatives are the 'official unofficial' standards for radar low observability for military purposes.

Who do you the chicks will go after...The guy who drive this...

...Or the guy who cruises the boulevard in this...

 

[ptldM3]

No obsession...Just that the F-22 is the standard. Like how Ferrari or Rolls set the standards for automobile designs and manufacturing. Either you meet the standards. Or you fail to meet the standards. No one or committee is sitting around creating these standards. This is a consensus among the world's military powers that the F-22 and its relatives are the 'official unofficial' standards for radar low observability for military purposes.

Who do you the chicks will go after...The guy who drive this...

...Or the guy who cruises the boulevard in this...

Are you saying the F-22 pilot will get more chicks? The problem with the ferrari is, it needs its valves adjusted regularly, it only has one seat, why is this important? You can only take one chick . Its gas mileage is poor, it's expencive, and insurance is My brother in law test drove a Ferrari but he end up buying a Bimmer.....what i'm trying to say is, he's an idiot and i'm hung over................on life that is

To keep this on topic the pak fa would look nice painted charcoal grey. I need some new wallpaper, so any photoshop experts?

http://i48.tinypic.com/2e5od4z.jpg

 

[amalakas]

It has been interesting reading some of the comments in here.. Not to offend most people but really .. way off base 98% of them.....

Some of you seem to Idolize the F-22 and some of you even the F-35
Allow me to put some things into perspective they way I see them.

1) Chapter F-35

A very dissapointing aircraft. The F-35 has very good stealth but nothing else.
It can be outturned and outflown by a 1969 circa F-4 phantom.
I read some comment that the F-4 is underpowered .. if the comment was about the phantom ..well , glad you guys are well informed.
The F-35 is a sitting duck to all current generation fighter planes once it is picked up on radar.
It can be shot down by F-4 modernised/15/16/18, M2000/ rafale/ grippen/ mig-29/ 35 Su-27/35 and obviously the EF2000 and will not even be a challenge to these planes..

The key here is not stealth but flight characteristics
The F-35 does NOT have the ability to out fly and out turn incoming missiles especially if they are coming in multiple volleys (suggested strategy)
The current generation of fighters has much better ability to outrun an incoming missile especialy ones launched from afar..

F-22 & F-35

Are they both stealth , Yes.. , beyond doubt..
more so than the PAK -FA .. probably yes..
And that means ......... diddly squat... nothing..

an F-22(& F35) can be shot down even by current generation aircraft..
much easier by a fully operational and deployed T-50 (pak fa)

the reason ... ????
Actual combat tactics

In an actual scenario, the F-22 would enter a combat zone having the upmost advantage on its side.. covered and backed up my multiple AWACS/naval/ground radars
in an engagement with a capable country however this may not be always the case...

Awacs my be chased and shot down by 4th/4.5 gen planes with long range missiles and hence gaps may be created in the situational awareness of the F-22 CAP mission

That would mean the much cheered for F-22 would have to switch on its active radar and search for targets..
if the target is (simply) ..low observable , such as EF2000/rafale or stealthy to a large extend (pak fa) ...
then the active range at which the F-22 can pick up track and lock the target dramatically decreases...
more over, the use of the active radar scan can be detected by planes such as the EF2000 and the su-35,Pak Fa to accuratelly pinpoint where the F-22 and plot a firing solution for missiles ..

even more so, if the opposing aircraft are 3 or more , 4 -6 ... then the combined passive detection capability and accuracy is further increased... which puts us in the next chapter... weapons and sensors

In such a scenario, were the AWACS assistance cannot be guaranteed and the F22 would have to actively seek out its targets,
it could be passively tracked and locked on, more over, the russian planes have excellent (even superior) IRST sensors and years of experience in tactics developed for their use ..
Believe what you want, but the F22 is not the sky and when viewed through the lens of an optical/thermal/IR sensor.. it will eventually show.. which brings us to the weapons..
Whoever believes the russians have inferior missiles .. is sorely mistaken
not only they do not, but they may have an advantage is having multiple available guidance tips for the same missile..
which means that a volley of different tips can be fired at a pottential target, a combination of mid / terminal/ IR and active search missiles can be launced at the same time.. making evading all of them a hard thing to do..
also the russians are working on ramjet/ scramjet powered missiles..
that combined with the supercruise ability of the PAK-FA means that the missiles can be fired without a primary fast firing booster..but rather released and straight into ramjet mode ....This denies the ability for the enemy plane to pick up a launch flare and be warned about the incoming missile..
Also the IRST sensors on the russian planes would allow the detection of the flare from a fired missile up to 25-30 nm miles away and provide ample time to the pilot to evade the incoming amraam which is the only weapon of choice..using the good manuvrability of the pak-fa ... and to do all this the PAK-FA does not even need to turn its radar on and give its possition away ..
if the initial volley of missiles between the two sides is bloodless and both sides miss..
well.. then its a whole different ball game now isn' it ???
close in visual range territory I do not think the F-22 would be comfortable with an Su-30/35 much less with a Pak-fa and its very high g offboresight short range missiles.. and if the su-35 is hyper agile at close range.. the pak fa looks like it has some good lineage..

so up close things get hairy ......and there is NO guarantee the F22 would survive a 1-1 dogfight.. and when someone factors in the cost for every f22.. then even if the f22 manages a 2:1 kill ratio ..
the damage of losing 1 F22 for every 2 pak fas.. I think is still too dear considering in terms of money .. you are tied.. ...
similarly .. the F35 is much much worst off..
not having any of the traits of the F22, many consider it to be a sitting duck for enemy fighters in such scenarios

the pak fa may not have the same RCS as the F22 or even the F35 ..
but it doesn't need to..
all the russians needed was to make a plane that shortens that first look first kill doctrine behind the F22.. and I think they have..
the F22 is still going to get first look.. but now it is likely that by the time the F22 tracks the inbounds on its radar and fires.. the pak fa will be close enough to cause considerable damage .. or even worst will have already used its IRST to make some lock and have launched its IR/semi active/active volley of missiles too

 

[DeathGod]

1.The more appropriate response would be for you, or anyone else for that matter, to show us evidences to support the argument that Raptor-like radar low observability CAN be achieved via other methods.


2.Who do you the chicks will go after...The guy who drive this...

...Or the guy who cruises the boulevard in this...

1.My point is not that Stealth can orcannot be achieved in any other way then that used by Raptor. My point is a philosophical one. I am not discounting PAKFA or other people questioning its stealthiness. The simple reason is that I dont like to speculate because its a futile excercise.

2. How often does one go to work in a ferrari? The point is ferrari much like F-22 is just an expensive toy and not an economically viable solution.

 

[rajeev]

at same time PAK-FA is great achievement for Russia and India. lets see how it proves itself in future bcos still its very beginning .....

I dont think it is a great achievement of Russia and India. It is a great achievement of Russia!

India is lucky to have Russia as a partner and visionary Indian leaders who welcomed the chance to contribute money for the project.