My family fought for Pakistan

[Venkat]

And what do you think you are doing here.
You know your facts does not match with ours, if you are interested to know the other side of story than listen otherwise just leave.
Indian forums are the ideal place where you get accolades for lies.
BTW, what is your reputaion visa vi a well cultured man made of honor and principals.

Dear Batman, Mr. Murad may be a man of honor and well cultured and have principals - but when he posts something which is not accurate and incorrect, i am well within my right to post the correct fact.

which part of my post was a lie or incorrect. I dare you to prove otherwise that the content of my post was wrong - that SA khan was shot down in aircombat and not by some bullet fired from the ground. But i know you cant!

 

[Venkat]

Venkat,

Thankyou for your post. Are you concerned to tell us who you are?
The info is not beyond the scope of normal intro---as a matter of fact it is a standard procedure on any defence related site or any other discussion group--- .

Dear Mastan,

I do appreciate that you decided reintroduce yourself in the intro forum with just the kind of information you are asking me - in that vein , you are a man who practices what he preaches - no doubt.

However the information is entirely optional - infact checking the intro forum - I have given more information than many of the posters there. Atleast I am posting under my name and nationality and not hiding behind some vague handle.

There is no mandatory rule that i need to share more information. Its not any concern or anything. its just that there is no need.

Once a police guy who stopped me on the road after a non-rolling stop sign violation - wanted to know if he could search my car . I know i didnt have anything incriminating (no drugs, no guns ) and I asked him to take a hike. He didnt like that but he had to lump it. I know i was well within my right to refuse. Its like that. I really dont feel any need to disclose more than I am entitled to under 'law'.

Venkat

 

[Venkat]

Bat dont worry buddy this Discussion is over. lets give him one more chance.
To tell you the truth if Mr. Salim Sahib tells me what he did in 71 war, I will believe him WHY, Because I was'nt there and most Officers who have gone through hell meaning War dont lie.

Bat dont worry buddy this Discussion is over. lets give him one more chance.
To tell you the truth if Mr. Salim Sahib tells me what he did in 71 war, I will believe him WHY, Because I was'nt there and most Officers who have gone through hell meaning War dont lie.

Dear MuradK,

Do I believe you are from PAF? Yes
Do I believe you were there during 71 War? Yes
Do I believe you served your country to the best of your ability? yes

But
Should I accept everything you say as the gospel truth that its exactly what happened? No - because people make mistakes in the heat of the battle - what you think you saw may not have actually happened. It is a frequent observation on both sides of the border.

So

Do I believe you when you say your friend was shot down by ground fire? No - because he was shot down in air combat. You are very much mistaken in your observation here.

What other personal story of yours did I doubt? I told you the official history didnot mention all these details, but have been given explanations by you and mastan which i accepted.

So yes I am skeptical everytime I see an unsubstantiated piece of information. I am not into the "If it is on the internet it must be true" kind of thinking - Whether it comes from Pakistani or Indian sources. You can counter me two ways - the easiest way is to brand me a liar and ignore my posts. The harder way and a more effective way is to prove me wrong with verifiable facts.

 

[Muradk]

Here we go again.

Dear MuradK,

Do I believe you are from PAF? Yes
Do I believe you were there during 71 War? Yes
Do I believe you served your country to the best of your ability? yes

But
Should I accept everything you say as the gospel truth that its exactly what happened? No - because people make mistakes in the heat of the battle - what you think you saw may not have actually happened. It is a frequent observation on both sides of the border.

So

Do I believe you when you say your friend was shot down by ground fire? No - because he was shot down in air combat. You are very much mistaken in your observation here.

What other personal story of yours did I doubt? I told you the official history didnot mention all these details, but have been given explanations by you and mastan which i accepted.

So yes I am skeptical everytime I see an unsubstantiated piece of information. I am not into the "If it is on the internet it must be true" kind of thinking - Whether it comes from Pakistani or Indian sources. You can counter me two ways - the easiest way is to brand me a liar and ignore my posts. The harder way and a more effective way is to prove me wrong with verifiable facts.

You dont know anything about me, next time you read a thread be sure to read it twice, I never said I saw a bullet hitting his tank. the event I told was about me and Atta not SA, but you want to know what happend to his plane and how we knew a bullet came from under and hit is fuel tank.
All the time he was in-touch with ATC and we had loud speakers so we can hear what the ATC and the pilot are takling in the ADA hut . When he engagged he said dropping load and than we heard left tank stuck,
The people who have flown will know that when you have one fuel tank stuck to your wing it is a ***** to handle the plane specially Gnat and F-86, he still managed to shoot one Hunter and because his manuveuring capabilities were limited and was out gunned in the air he got shot, when he was close to the base he said ground fire sector 4 , Sector 4 was empty woods and grass only and than we heard fire in fuel tank beacuse of ground fire and that was it. We had only 1 AAG on our base to protect us and that was not firing and no plane was close to him. Wing Commander Tawab Who was our Officer commanding wrote the last entry in his log book. If we ever see each other I promise to show you his planes photo graphs and the investigation into his death. I am sorry mods but my Pathan mode just turned on thanks to Mr.Vanket so Vanket print this out Make a 32 and take it for as for I am concerened I dont give a dame what you think the one thing which make me angry is someone saying or applying that I am lying or wrong when I am not
.

 

[roadrunner]

Hmm, 1:4..not bad.. just kidding, carry on (but I hold my other ratio to be proveably correct)

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Depends on who's perceiving the ratio!

Since you are so obsessed by the ratio, you force me to state that the 10:1 has been proved repeatedly to be a nightmare for those who dreamt it!

Please let us get back to the realm of reality and stop this type of juvenile chicanery!

 

[Venkat]

Here we go again.

were limited and was out gunned in the air he got shot, when he was close to the base he said ground fire sector 4 , Sector 4 was empty woods and grass only and than we heard fire in fuel tank beacuse of ground fire and that was it. We had only 1 AAG on our base to protect us and that was not firing and no plane was close to him. Wing Commander Tawab Who was our Officer commanding wrote the last entry in his log book. If we ever see each other I promise to show you his planes photo graphs and the investigation into his death.

I dont know what your point is. In your first post you mention ground fire. Now are you saying you accept it was Air Combat? I dont get that impression from your post.

The fact remains that SAKhan was shot down by a Hunter. Indian sources mention it - Hell even the PAF official sources mention it. Even the citation you posted confirms it. if you know better please contact the person who wrote taht citation as to why he put wrong information . You should also talk to the person who wrote the Official PAF History (Was that Shabbir Hussain) as well as to Air Commodore Kaiser Tufail. When all of them change their story that SAKhan was shot down by ground fire, I would take your word for it. But till then there is no changing the fact that SA Khan was downed in Air Combat.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Venkat,

MuradK has narrated the events as he recalled them. The initial comment that you considered incorrect was a passing mention of how the incident came to occur, and in his last post he provided a more detailed explanation of what occurred.

By stretching his passing mention (which he has expounded upon quite well by narrating his memory of the events that took place at that time) you are dragging this into an unnecessary argument. I would suggest carefully reading both his initial and last posts again.

All the time he was in-touch with ATC and we had loud speakers so we can hear what the ATC and the pilot are takling in the ADA hut . When he engagged he said dropping load and than we heard left tank stuck,
The people who have flown will know that when you have one fuel tank stuck to your wing it is a ***** to handle the plane specially Gnat and F-86, he still managed to shoot one Hunter and because his manuveuring capabilities were limited and was out gunned in the air he got shot, when he was close to the base he said ground fire sector 4 , Sector 4 was empty woods and grass only and than we heard fire in fuel tank beacuse of ground fire and that was it.

 

[Venkat]

Venkat,

MuradK has narrated the events as he recalled them. The initial comment that you considered incorrect was a passing mention of how the incident came to occur, and in his last post he provided a more detailed explanation of what occurred.

By stretching his passing mention (which he has expounded upon quite well by narrating his memory of the events that took place at that time) you are dragging this into an unnecessary argument. I would suggest carefully reading both his initial and last posts again.

Dear Moderator,

I am only interested in setting things straight.

MuradK is well respected here and his words are taken at value. as such, when he makes a minor mistake there is a danger of it becoming cast in stone as truth.

thus my interest is in telling correct facts and not to get in fights with him or anyone else.

But I agree its a minor issue when viewed in the whole idea of this thread.

 

[azmax007]

I like azmax's avtaar he is proposing a Union.

But I have seen on azmax’s home page that he called the old Biharis traitors.
Can u please explain how can you claim that they were traitors?

I propose a bond based on Islamic brotherhood, what Muhammad (SWA) proposed when he revealed Islam 1300 years ago, something that Bhutto, Yahya, and Mujibur Rahman forgot.

As for the Biharis, they killed their fellow Bengalis in 1971, and for what? I'm not saying Biharis didn't die either, I know that after the the 1971 war, innocent Biharis were slaughtered as revenge from Bengali fighters.

what bullsh!t....

I do admire most pakistani for their balls...they are twice as courageous than some indians I have met...

I doubt bladeshi have guts...............

and that is the reason why they have gone back to Pak for help......

Is that right? So your saying Bengalis didn't have guts to vote for the creation of Pakistan, when the Sindhis and the Punjabis voted against it, since they will loose autonomy of their regions. Remember the Muslim league was created in Dhaka in 1906 after the split of the Bengal. The creation of Pakistan was a dream for most to all Desi Muslims and it was voted for overwhelmingly by the Bengalis, plus the Mohajirs. When is Bangladesh going back for Pak for help? Bangladesh's senior military officers were once officers of the Pakistani army and they are showing respect to Pakistan despite the bad history; that's why they are increasing relationship with the Pakistani army.

Dude, two-facedness is a common trait on some Bengalis

And yet most of my close friends are Pakistanis and they trust me full heartedly. Don't generalize, there are 270 million of us and not all Bengalis are the same, as in not all Pakistanis are the same.

RR,
It is our turn to help the Bengalis in their time of need.

We are the next rising generation of Bengalis, and we want good relations with our Muslim brethren across India. The relationship with India is a love-hate relationship. India broke up Pakistan for her own benefit, it's better to have one Pakistan than two.

And it's true Bangladesh's are questioning the events of 1971. Some even question if India spared innocent Bengalis.

Bangladeshis in general don't hate Indians, it's the Indian government and their policies on Bangladesh that they hate. If you go to streets of Dhaka you can speak Hindi/Urdu and the Bengalis will respond in a friendly manner in Hindi/Urdu, thanks to Bollywood. It's true part of Bangladesh is becoming deserts as India is closing off waters to Bangladesh. If India goes ahead with it's river-linking project then yes, Bangladesh will have no water and definitely a war will break out, and India will slaughter millions of Bengalis. As for Pakistan, the Bangladesh government, especially the Bangladesh military, are pushing closer ties with Pakistan. As for why they are pushing it, I can't tell you exactly other than them being Pakistani officers before, and I'm not going to make anything up, I just don't know why.

As for all you haters, remember Bengalis were loyal to Pakistan once, in USA and UK abroad Bengalis and Pakistanis are friends because they communicate with each other where in Bangladesh or in Pakistan they can't because they're not neighbors.

I recommend this article written by a Pakistani who went to Dhaka for a visit.
A Pakistani in Bangladesh: Dhaka by Degrees : ALL THINGS PAKISTAN

 

[su-47]

It's true part of Bangladesh is becoming deserts as India is closing off waters to Bangladesh. If India goes ahead with it's river-linking project then yes, Bangladesh will have no water

India is constructing dams and linking rivers to provide sufficient water to Indian citizens. I dont think it has any evil intentions of depriving bangladesh of water.

If Bangladesh has a problem with it, they should complain to the UN. The matter will be decided in the International court.

and definitely a war will break out, and India will slaughter millions of Bengalis.

Your image of India is distorted. You envisage India as a brutal butcher who is happy to kill and revel in bloodshed. I am sure that the thought of slaughtering millions of Bengalis is not something Indians have never even contemplated. We are not barbarians who are looking to hurt others. We are people, just like any other, who just want to get on with our lives without stepping on anyone's toes. Most indians abhorr violence and if ever India slaughter millions of bengladeshis, there will be national outcry and the government will probably fall from power. a war is about the last thing on their mind.

 

[salman nedian]

I think its enough of what had happened in the past now it’s our responsibility to complete Pakistan. I always believe that Pakistan and Bangladesh are virtually same country b/c its religion which binds us rather for looking for friendship b/c Indians are being unfair to Bangladeshis we should work honestly to correct the mistakes that we had committed. We should be agonizingly jealous when it comes to Pakistan. Fight with the Bangladeshis is the bad mark on mother land’s face which now should be removed other wise we will always keep blaming each other in a similar manner and the world will continue to make fun of us.

 

[azmax007]

If Bangladesh has a problem with it, they should complain to the UN. The matter will be decided in the International court.

So your saying India can do it without any consideration of Bangladesh? Why should the international community get involved? Can't India be a good nation without being pressured from Western powers? Those millions of Bangladeshis will be affected, about 20 million of them.

Your image of India is distorted. You envisage India as a brutal butcher who is happy to kill and revel in bloodshed. I am sure that the thought of slaughtering millions of Bengalis is not something Indians have never even contemplated. We are not barbarians who are looking to hurt others. We are people, just like any other, who just want to get on with our lives without stepping on anyone's toes. Most indians abhorr violence and if ever India slaughter millions of bengladeshis, there will be national outcry and the government will probably fall from power. a war is about the last thing on their mind.

I'm not saying India will start the war, I'm saying the Bangladeshis will. If water is depleted from Bangladesh then India is to blame and the Bangladeshis will, in no doubt, move into to India which will cause massive violence. Some huge conflict will definitely breakout in the Bengal region and I know India doesn't want that but the river linking project may possibly lead to that.

Bengalis in general are psycho sometimes, they will do whatever they can to satisfy their needs regardless of facing a stronger opponent. Such as in 1971 in the secession of East Pakistan, plus the illegal immigration to north east India regardless of all the warnings they get from the authorities. Bangladeshis may start the war not India. But India is pushing Bangladeshis to that point.

 

[azmax007]

I think its enough of what had happened in the past now it’s our responsibility to complete Pakistan. I always believe that Pakistan and Bangladesh are virtually same country b/c its religion which binds us rather for looking for friendship b/c Indians are being unfair to Bangladeshis we should work honestly to correct the mistakes that we had committed. We should be agonizingly jealous when it comes to Pakistan. Fight with the Bangladeshis is the bad mark on mother land’s face which now should be removed other wise we will always keep blaming each other in a similar manner and the world will continue to make fun of us.

You know before I didn't think that, but after actually thinking and interacting with a lot of Pakistanis, I agree we are the same. India does laugh at both Pakistan and Bangladesh because the 1971 is was humiliating for Muslims in general and it was humiliating for Bangladeshis afterwards. India laughs at Pakistan for having her own people fight her and loosing a significant province. India laughs are Bangladesh for no longer being part of the Pakistan Union so they keep Bangladesh from developing since Bangladesh doesn't have the big brother West Pakistan anymore.

 

[su-47]

So your saying India can do it without any consideration of Bangladesh? Why should the international community get involved? Can't India be a good nation without being pressured from Western powers? Those millions of Bangladeshis will be affected, about 20 million of them.

You are accusing water shortages on indian river linking. but remember this, bangladesh is a country that receives one of the highest amount of rainfall per year in the world. a country like that wont have any water shortages due to rivers being linked or dams being built by India. if there is any shoratge of water, it is due to lack of reservoirs and dams.

I'm not saying India will start the war, I'm saying the Bangladeshis will. If water is depleted from Bangladesh then India is to blame and the Bangladeshis will, in no doubt, move into to India which will cause massive violence. Some huge conflict will definitely breakout in the Bengal region and I know India doesn't want that but the river linking project may possibly lead to that.

Bengalis in general are psycho sometimes, they will do whatever they can to satisfy their needs regardless of facing a stronger opponent. Such as in 1971 in the secession of East Pakistan, plus the illegal immigration to north east India regardless of all the warnings they get from the authorities. Bangladeshis may start the war not India. But India is pushing Bangladeshis to that point.

If bengaldeshis want a war over water, then they should wage war on the govt, who havent done squat to improve conditions in bangladesh. in a war you have to fight with your head more than your heart.