Muslims in South Asia that claim Punjabi/Sindhi ancestry

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Both of the links makes no mention of Punjabi ancestry - the Khokhar one says "The Khokhar Pathan claim descent from Malik Babur, who said to have come from kabool & Iran" and Bhatti one says "They have no connection with the Ranghar Bhatti of western Uttar Pradesh or those of Punjab.".

You should substantiate your claims with more sources.

Khokhar & pathan?

 

[Naofumi]

Khokhar & pathan?

In western UP, Pathan and Rajput identity have merged to some extent - most probably due to the prevalence of intermarriage between the two communities.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

In western UP, Pathan and Rajput identity have merged to some extent - most probably due to the prevalence of intermarriage between the two communities.

Are khokhars Rajput? Because many in Pakistan claim to be a separate caste, others claim to be rajput.. & many Rajputs also don’t intermarry with them?

 

[Naofumi]

Are khokhars Rajput? Because many in Pakistan claim to be a separate caste, others claim to be rajput.. & many Rajputs also don’t intermarry with them?

Khanzadas claim to be Rajputs though some of them are actually Mulle Jat. I don't know if other Khanzada intermarry with Khokhars in India but they carry "Khanzada" titles. Hindu Khokhars claim to be Jat only as per my knowledge.

Rajput identity formed in 16th century, I guess boundaries were porous before that - rich Khokhars became Rajput and poor ones remained Jats.

 

[jaatram]

Thank Allah .....they didnt fell in trap of arab or turkish ancestry.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Thank Allah .....they didnt fell in trap of arab or turkish ancestry.

I dont know about india but that doesnt happen in Pak..

 

[Naofumi]

I dont know about india but that doesnt happen in Pak..

Arain and Awan are two examples on the top of my head.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Arain and Awan are two examples on the top of my head.

So you basically have 2 castes from panjab?

Origin of both is unknown.. awans claims to be the descendants of Qutb Shah and as far as I know there are no awans in india, same goes for arians.
Arians claim to have come with bin qasim but there is no proof of it.

Both cant be found among hindu or sikhs either.

Arain and Awan are two examples on the top of my head.

The claims of awans can be corroborated however from the fact that they are still the nawabs of Kala bagh from where they seem to have spread into different areas of panjab.

More interesting are the Kambohs who claims to be of persian descent and can also be found among the sikhs ?

 

[Naofumi]

So you basically have 2 castes from panjab?

Origin of both is unknown.. awans claims to be the descendants of Qutb Shah and as far as I know there are no awans in india, same goes for arians.
Arians claim to have come with bin qasim but there is no proof of it.

Both cant be found among hindu or sikhs either.

For Arain

Also read somewhere that initially Awans customs included many non-Islamic practices - making it harder to classify their religion, I don't think they are of Arab origins.

More interesting are the Kambohs who claims to be of persian descent and can also be found among the sikhs ?

Yes.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

For Arain
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Also read somewhere that initially Awans customs included many non-Islamic practices - making it harder to classify their religion, I don't think they are of Arab origins.


Yes.

Had they been Rajput wouldnt they have maintained their claim like other rajputs?
Historically speaking they aren’t really big land holders but have meagre land holdings, growing vegetables etc thus the stereotypes.
Also wouldn’t you also have hindu kr sikh arians?

These are nothing but predictions at best.

As for awans, qutub shah was actually from Iran.

 

[Naofumi]

Had they been Rajput wouldnt they have maintained their claim like other rajputs?

Other "real" Rajputs never accepted their claims, so they took on other claims.

Also wouldn’t you also have hindu kr sikh arians?

If you've read the whole piece - they have many links with Sainis - there are both Sikh and Hindu Sainis and are market gardeners too.

As for awans, qutub shah was actually from Iran.

But they are not conclusively descended from Qutb Shah.

 

[Cliftonite]

@Naofumi Arab ancestry in subcontinent is minimal. You know why? Because WE LOOK NOTHING LIKE ARABS! I just eye roll at these desis who trace their direct uninterrupted ancestry back to the Ummayads. AS IF!

More of the "Urdu is a dialect of Dari" coping mechanisms.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Other "real" Rajputs never accepted their claims, so they took on other claims.

If you've read the whole piece - they have many links with Sainis - there are both Sikh and Hindu Sainis and are market gardeners too.

But they are not conclusively descended from Qutb Shah.

Im not really convinced since these are not proven.

For Arain
View attachment 638512
View attachment 638515
View attachment 638516
View attachment 638517

Also read somewhere that initially Awans customs included many non-Islamic practices - making it harder to classify their religion, I don't think they are of Arab origins.


Yes.

id tag an awan, @Malik Alpha

@Naofumi Arab ancestry in subcontinent is minimal. You know why? Because WE LOOK NOTHING LIKE ARABS! I just eye roll at these desis who trace their direct uninterrupted ancestry back to the Ummayads. AS IF!

More of the "Urdu is a dialect of Dari" coping mechanisms.

Im from Balochistan bro. That said from what Ive seen arians and even awans on average are more iranic lookin than say jatts etc let alone indians.

 

[Cliftonite]

Im not really convinced since these are not proven.




id tag an awan, @Malik Alpha


Im from Balochistan bro. That said from what Ive seen arians and even awans on average are more iranic lookin than say jatts etc let alone indians.

Have you seen Iranians bro? Googoosh. Raza Shah Pahlavi. Rouhani.

Tell me which Arain looks like Iranians? Zia ul Haq? Bhutto? Sultan Rahi?

Let me be honest with you. The only people who are phenotypically Iranian in Pakistan are Pashtuns and the Gilgit Baltistanis. Even the Baloch who speak an Iranian language are phenotypically Indic. I'm talking science here, not feel good stuff like Urdu and Persian are sem2sem languages. We are phenotypically, linguistically and culturally closer to South Asia (Northwest and North) than to Iran or Central Asia. It's a hard pill to swallow for us but it's necessary.

 

[Malik Alpha]

Also read somewhere that initially Awans customs included many non-Islamic practices - making it harder to classify their religion, I don't think they are of Arab origins.


Yes.

Awans are exclusively Muslims. Even before Google my father told me that we are Qutb Shahi Awans, our ancestor is Qutb Shah who invaded India as a General in Mehmood Ghaznavi's army and later settled in Potohar region along with his sons.

Here is a brief info about Awans:

Who were Awans and how did they reach India? Sultan Hamid Ali writes in his book "Manaqib-e-Sultani" that Awans are descendants of Hazrat Ali Karam Allah Wajhul Kareem. When Sadaats (Holy Prophet's progeny through Hazrat Fatima Razi Allah Anha) left Arab due to troubles and started living in different areas of Iran and Turkistan, the Awan tribe helped them in that time of trouble, as they were their close relatives, that is why, their family name changed from Alvis and Hashmis to Awans which means "those who helped the Sadaats". Sadaats continued their religious obligations of preaching Islam, even when, they left Arab but Awans indulged in wars and battles and captured Harrat. Qutb Shah, the ancestor of Awans, died while he was the ruler of Harrat. The title 'Shah' is usually a part of the names of Sadaats but Awans also use this title.

When Sadaats migrated to Kharasan, Awans accompanied them and entered Punjab through river Indus and the mountains of Kala Bagh. Here also Sadaats remained cut off with material statuses and kept engaged in religious preaching, thus Bukharies in Uch Sharif, Gillanis in Bhot Mubarik, Shirazis in Chohan Saidan Shah and Hamadani Sadaats in Danda Shah Billawal guided people towards Islam and benefited them. While Awans captured Kala Bagh and occupied the Hindu forts of Malik Dhani, Potowar, Koh Pakharo, Valley of Son Sakesar, Koh Patao, Koh Tawa, Koh Khaon and settled here. The Hindus of these areas accepted Islam due to the influence of Awans. Now Awans are in majority in these Areas.

Professor Ahmad Saeed Hamadani has elaborated about Awans and their forefather Mir Qutb Shah in his book "Ahwal-o-Maqamat-e-Sultan Bahoo", he says:

"When Sultan Mehmood Ghaznavi left for India to attack Somnath, a troop of Alvis headed by Mir Qutb Shah (or Mir Qutb Haider) requested to accompany him. Sultan Mehmood allowed them and entitled them 'Awan'. Afterwards, they became known by this title…..Awans fought valiantly in this battle, so Sultan Mehmood was very happy with them. When they returned back, Mir Qutb Shah (or Mir Qutb Haider) requested Sultan to allow them to crush the Rajput landlords and Nawabs who ruled other areas of the country. Sultan accepted the request, so Mir Qutb Haider attacked the Janjuwas and Chohans who ruled the surrounding areas of present Potowar and Kohistan-e-Namak and drove them down the mountains. Awans captured and got settled in the beautiful valleys of these mountains. Now they were known as Qutb Shahi Awan".
Mir Qutb Shah is actually the person after whom Awans are called Qutb Shahi Awans. Under his leadership, Awans joined the army of Sultan Mehmood Ghaznavi and then settled in the valley of Saun Sakesar. Professor Ahmad Saeed Hamadani writes;

"Mir Qutb Shah's genealogy traces back to Hazrat Imam Mohammad Bin Hanfia Razi Allah Anhu, son of Hazrat Ali Karam Allah Wajhu. His ancestors helped and protected Fatmi Sadaats, fought for them and thus reached Afghanistan with them and settled in Harrat. Afterwards, they joined the army of Sultan Mehmood in his reign. The progeny of Mir Qutb Shah flourished in Potowar, they got the daughters of the defeated Rajas converted into Muslims, married them and had children. These newly converted Muslims and the tribes, who earlier came with Qutb Shah were now relatives, as they got inter married and had children. They related themselves to Mir Qutb Shah who was the source of link between them and the most famous and outstanding person among them. Even now, they call themselves Qutb Shahi Awans, wherever they reside. Although, it is known that Mir Qutb Shah lived in Anga in the Valley of Saun, Tehsil Naushehra, district Khaushab, Punjab Pakistan, but nothing about the year of his arrival, period of his stay here, year of death, or his shrine is mentioned by the writers".