Muslim Philosopher Says Islam Has Given Birth To Monsters, Needs Reform

[TankMan]

Dear sir,

Have you or any of the existing religion followers ( Including Hinduism, Judaism, Chistianism) claimed the following before these are actually discovered/proved?
a. Heliocentric universal model
b. Earth is round
c. Evolution

Please do not show any explanation of Islamic/Hindu/Other scholars stated these facts before they are actually proven ? Any explanation after that is just a back calculation and trying to reinterpret religious text based on contemporary knowledge. There is no harm in that. This is the way through which religion/philosophy evolves.

If you do not agree with above statement, please ask religious leaders (any religion) discover/invent some new things which is not yet discovered by science. If these knowledge is already there in Koran, Veda, Bible and our current religious interpreters know everything without any ambiguity, it should be cake walk for them to do so.

I am not against any religion but I believe there is a scope of reinterpretation of it. A person who is interpreting a verse on 2000 BC or 1500 AD and a person trying to do the same in 2014 should be different as knowledge body of these to timeframe are different. Please accept that only Length , breadth and width are the only dimensions, Time is also a very important dimention

Have I? I did not exist before those things were discovered, so I don't know how I'm supposed to have claimed it before. I understand what you're trying to say but you have one big misunderstanding here - that religion opposes science. Religion does not oppose science, not at all. Religious people do, sometimes. Islam, for example, clearly tells people to look for proof and seek knowledge. That is one of the reasons Muslims were discovering and studying while Christians were burning 'witches'. Islam was at its strongest during that time. If Islam opposed Science, we wouldn't have had any Islamic Golden Age. It's a big shame that Muslims screwed up later on, while the West was reforming religion and science, Muslims were deteriorating and politicizing it.

Are you asking me to show or to not show? I know for a fact that Muslims 1300 years ago believed in a Heliocentric universal model and round Earth. As for evolution, it is still just a theory which has not been proven. That's why we call it Darwin's theory of evolution.

Here you made one very good point about re-interpretation of Religion. Now what we need to understand here is that religion has two main parts :

1. The core, the essential part that does not and should not change in time. This includes concepts such as belief in God, doing good, serving humanity (charity) and values such as humility, kindness and honesty.
2. The 'peripheral' parts, which may change over time. These include religious rituals, stuff like dressing and stuff pertaining to politics and society (slavery being a prime example)

Now the problem arises when certain groups end up mixing the two. This is especially a problem with Muslims who still believe that Islam must be practiced exactly the way it was 1400 years ago, which is impractical to say the least.

Let me give you an analogy: the concept of a house hasn't changed for a long time.It provides shelter, a place to conduct activities like sleeping and eating. A mud hut fulfills that description perfectly. However, a modern house with toilets and heating systems is also a house. It builds up on the basic concept and improves it.
The same is true for a religion. You have some boundaries but you can do anything within them. Islam, for example, denounces and forbids tyranny. It agrees with having a leader or caliph. However, it is flexible enough to allow for a Democracy because it is within the prescribed limits. This concept applies with Science too.

As soon as people realize and understand this, the world will become a way better place. The main problem - and I don't deny it, Muslims have problems - is that we have uneducated idiots as our religious scholars, who insist on having a mud hut even when you can build a luxury palace. Then we have people confusing the peripheral parts of religion for the core.

So yes, you are perfectly right about time being an essential factor.

 

[AXO4D]

Dear sir,

Have you or any of the existing religion followers ( Including Hinduism, Judaism, Chistianism) claimed the following before these are actually discovered/proved?
a. Heliocentric universal model
b. Earth is round
c. Evolution

Please do not show any explanation of Islamic/Hindu/Other scholars stated these facts before they are actually proven ? Any explanation after that is just a back calculation and trying to reinterpret religious text based on contemporary knowledge. There is no harm in that. This is the way through which religion/philosophy evolves.

If you do not agree with above statement, please ask religious leaders (any religion) discover/invent some new things which is not yet discovered by science. If these knowledge is already there in Koran, Veda, Bible and our current religious interpreters know everything without any ambiguity, it should be cake walk for them to do so.

I am not against any religion but I believe there is a scope of reinterpretation of it. A person who is interpreting a verse on 2000 BC or 1500 AD and a person trying to do the same in 2014 should be different as knowledge body of these to timeframe are different. Please accept that only Length , breadth and width are the only dimensions, Time is also a very important dimention

(A) heliocentric universe model:
Einstein’s Theory of Relativity upset both models. New evidence has also shown that the Solar System’s center of gravity is not the exact center of the Sun. This means that either model is acceptable regardless of the fundamental differences between the theories. Astronomers use both the heliocentric and geocentric models for research depending on which theory makes their calculations easier.

(B) earth is round
i have given you the text from ibn taymimiya book who lived 200 years before Christopher Columbus was born.

(C) evolution:
on which bases you think evolution is proven. even a person with a little bit of intelligence will know this is just a hoax.
micro evolution ya maybe but they are more like adaptation. but if you belief in the concept of macro evolution like humens from apes there is no proof what so ever..bugs remain bugs and dogs remain dog.
there are thousand of way you can prove evolution is false in 21st century.
for example in larger animals there is not even a single mechanism in there body through which they can add genes to their DNA...mutation can take place but mutation only change the characteristic of gene never add new genes...all animals have different number of genomes.like the chimpanzee Y chromosome has 37 genes and the human Y chromosome has at least 78 genes.
modern biology and evolution just dont go along anymore...

fun video to watch..

 

[somebozo]

The head of this monster lies in Judaism without which Humanity would not have suffered the dark evils of religious cults and two millennium of ignorance. To kill a snake - deal a blow to its head. Christianity and Islam acts like two forces on the balance of evil dividing the world across the lines of east and west.

The question is not the need of reforms - but to put an end to lunatic cults once for all. And a good start would be start wiping off nonsense Judic fables made out of stolen Mesopotamian and Egyptian fairy tales.

Religion is very much like scientific fraud - it uses the unknown and unproven with a mix of fear to sell political propaganda of higher authority which the ultimate goal of colonizing the subject, economically encroaching them utilizing them as human fuel.

 

[syedali73]

@Solomon2

Also, I'd like to add, there are many, many members here on the forum who have a good mastery of Islam, though perhaps they aren't too clued up on it's place in politics and society. But there's a good reason why those members haven't given you spanking yet. Your mastery of the English knowledge is clear and you've used it to great effect, often confusing desi posters, I won't say that it's your intention, I often state things too eloquently myself when I know the person on the other end isn't too comfortable with conversing in English. But don't you worry, your wordy replies of little substance do not at all worry me.

He is not getting spanking because debating with him is just not worth it, simple as that. Same is true for @Syed.Ali.Haider. It would be better to spend time doing something productive rather than addressing ignorant fools.

“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”

For them, Islam is a punching bag, which they hit to relieve stress. Each and every post of these poster is a testament of this psychological state.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

"You chose to believe that Islam means 'submission' and to impose that belief – while the Koran itself declares that 'there is no compulsion in religion' (the ikraha fi Din). You have made [the Koran's] cry for freedom into the reign of coercion."

That one passage in the essay covers much of the 'disease' inflicting Muslims and Muslim societies - disease that has spawned evil monsters like the Sipah-e-Sahaba, Al Qaeda, Taliban and ISIS. This 'disease' manifests itself through our blasphemy laws, laws against Ahmadis, laws preventing non-Muslims from becoming heads of State, laws against homosexuality, laws against freedom of speech.

This 'disease' manifests itself in our social attitudes that cast non-Muslims, especially those not from the Abrahamic faiths, as 'untouchables'. We are taught not to drink or eat from utensils used by them, to not marry within them and even, at times, to not associate with them. These social attitudes are essentially the foundation for the intolerance and hatred that foments and rots minds into supporting pure evil like that of Da-esh.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Cheap shot by the so called Super duper Philosopher , Write an Article based on heavy Critics on Islam and get better pay checks in anywhere in West .....nothing new .. we already have SIR SALMAAN RUSHDEE kind of great writers lolz

What's wrong with arguing for reform within Islam? There are many Muslims who still believe in primitive and barbaric interpretations of Islam, that argue in favor of pedophilia/child marriages and reduce women/non-Muslims to second class status.

 

[syedali73]

"You chose to believe that Islam means 'submission' and to impose that belief – while the Koran itself declares that 'there is no compulsion in religion' (the ikraha fi Din). You have made [the Koran's] cry for freedom into the reign of coercion."

That one passage in the essay covers much of the 'disease' inflicting Muslims and Muslim societies - disease that has spawned evil monsters like the Sipah-e-Sahaba, Al Qaeda, Taliban and ISIS. This 'disease' manifests itself through our blasphemy laws, laws against Ahmadis, laws preventing non-Muslims from becoming heads of State, laws against homosexuality, laws against freedom of speech.

This 'disease' manifests itself in our social attitudes that cast non-Muslims, especially those not from the Abrahamic faiths, as 'untouchables'. We are taught not to drink or eat from utensils used by them, to not marry within them and even, at times, to not associate with them. These social attitudes are essentially the foundation for the intolerance and hatred that foments and rots minds into supporting pure evil like that of Da-esh.

You have picked up your favorite thing 'there is no compulsion in religion' while ignored the rest. Quran (it is not 'Koran' BTW; Qalb and Kalb have two different meanings hence important to pronunciate Arabic words correctly) also says 'Adkhulo fissilmi ka'ffa'. Which means 'enter into Islam completely'. When Quran says 'no compulsion' it gives you right to choose, don't choose if you don't like, but if you have chosen Islam as your religion, then 'enter into Islam completely' just like the Prophet (PBUH), his family and sahabah did. They did not pick their 'favorite' practices and ignore rest.

 

[Jungibaaz]

He is not getting spanking because debating with him is just not worth it, simple as that. Same is true for @Syed.Ali.Haider. It would be better to spend time doing something productive rather than addressing ignorant fools.

“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”

For them, Islam is a punching bag, which they hit to relieve stress. Each and every post of these poster is a testament of this psychological state.

I completely disagree here. Solomon2 on some topics fine. But the guy you've mentioned there is one of my favourite posters on PDF. He writes short and to the point replies, not lengthy ones, and hardly ever gets involved in long winded debate as a personal choice. Trust me, if he wanted to debate he would, and would also most likely win most of the time. And I have yet to see him bash Islam, all his criticism of Muslims stem from valid concerns in my opinion. Sure, we may not agree on everything, but you need people who give that side of the story on this forum. And don't be fooled by his posts, he's a proud patriot, even though he doesn't say it.

 

[syedali73]

I completely disagree here. Solomon2 on some topics fine. But the guy you've mentioned there is one of my favourite posters on PDF. He writes short and to the point replies, not lengthy ones, and hardly ever gets involved in long winded debate as a personal choice. Trust me, if he wanted to debate he would, and would also most likely win most of the time. And I have yet to see him bash Islam, all his criticism of Muslims stem from valid concerns in my opinion. Sure, we may not agree on everything, but you need people who give that side of the story on this forum. And don't be fooled by his posts, he's a proud patriot, even though he doesn't say it.

You have every right to disagree so do I.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

ISIS is the product of US invasion of the Muslim world. They promised Sunni tribes a share of power in return for fighting Al Qaeda (another product of American imperialism). The Sunnis had warned the Americans that if you back stab us, we will take Baghdad or die trying. The US is well US, they never kept their end of the deal and brought Maliki into power. A Shia extremist who started to persecute the Sunnis and denied them their basic rights. ISIS was the result!

You are only partly correct - the 'Sunni uprising', in the context of being a 'political uprising', is certainly attributable to the factors you mentioned. The extremist Sunni religious/sectarian underpinnings of the ISIS rise are, however, due to the malaise that Muslim societies have allowed to spread within them. ISIS may be garnering the headlines now in terms of its rapid rise, but we have seen the ideology underpinning it in Pakistan for decades, most recently in its most vicious form of the TTP, Lashkar-e-Jhangivi, Jundullah etc.

The political landscape of post-US Iraq provided ISIS with the fodder it needed to expand, but the roots of this disease are, as the author argues, laid long before the US through the regressive and intolerant attitudes and values permeating our societies, justified as being 'Islamic' and in accordance with 'Shariah'.

 

[Lux de Veritas]

You have picked up your favorite thing 'there is no compulsion in religion' while ignored the rest. Quran (it is not 'Koran' BTW; Qalb and Kalb have two different meanings hence important to pronunciate Arabic words correctly) also says 'Adkhulo fissilmi ka'ffa'. Which means 'enter into Islam completely'. When Quran says 'no compulsion' it gives you right to chose, don't choose if you don't like, but if you have chosen Islam as your religion, then 'enter into Islam completely' just like the Prophet (PBUH), his family and sahabah did. They did not pick their 'favorite' practices and ignore rest.

The Jews Bible Old Testament has the below and many others to justify murder. I Samuel 15.1 – 3

I am the one whom the Lord sent to anoint you king of his people Israel. Now listen to what the Lord Almighty says. He is going to punish the people of Amalek because their ancestors opposed the Israelites when they were coming from Egypt. Go and attack the Amalekites and completely destroy everything they have. Don’t leave a thing: kill all the men, women, children and babies; the cattle, sheep, camels and donkeys.

Today, Jews have nothing of this sort of barbaric murder. Muslims are like Jews 2000 years ago. Today, Jews got kick for 2000 years and by staying with European has pick up more of their humanistic values. I see Islamist going the way of Jews and they may need more suffering.

In this whole world, all Islamic countries are in shitt thanks to their barbaric mindset. They deserve that fully. They are going for more humiliation, militarily and intellectually. Those top Muslim Intellect will hate their religion and become secular. Muslim countries will get defeat everywhere.

Muslims deserve that.

 

[somebozo]

Didn't read it I am off the same opinion after the death of prophet pbuh except very few Islam has produced only savage blood thirsty monsters

It produced the same during the life of Muhammed himself as well..numerous looting raids and massacres conducted by him and his companions.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

You have picked up your favorite thing 'there is no compulsion in religion' while ignored the rest. Quran (it is not 'Koran' BTW; Qalb and Kalb have two different meanings hence important to pronunciate Arabic words correctly) also says 'Adkhulo fissilmi ka'ffa'. Which means 'enter into Islam completely'. When Quran says 'no compulsion' it gives you right to choose, don't choose if you don't like, but if you have chosen Islam as your religion, then 'enter into Islam completely' just like the Prophet (PBUH), his family and sahabah did. They did not pick their 'favorite' practices and ignore rest.

Blasphemy laws are "compulsion", laws against homosexuality are "compulsion", laws preventing non-Muslims from becoming heads of State are "compulsion", laws preventing Ahmadis, or even some weird Hindu cult group, from calling themselves 'Muslims' are "compulsion"

Muslims societies have becoming nothing more than some form or the other of "compulsion", societies that promote hatred, intolerance and second class status for all those considered the "other".

 

[syedali73]

Today, Jews have nothing of this sort of barbaric murder.

I stopped reading after this. Either you are too ignorant of what Jews are doing to Palestinians or think others are downright fool.

 

[syedali73]

Blasphemy laws are "compulsion", laws against homosexuality are "compulsion", laws preventing non-Muslims from becoming heads of State are "compulsion", laws preventing Ahmadis, or even some weird Hindu cult group, from calling themselves 'Muslims' are "compulsion"

Muslims societies have becoming nothing more than some form or the other of "compulsion", societies that promote hatred, intolerance and second class status for all those considered the "other".

I appreciate your command of the English. I hope you wont mind if I request you to learn Arabic with the same zeal and try to go through Islamic books. I am sure you'll get to see things more positively than you currently do.