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Muslim Pakistan versus Islamic Pakistan - Which Was Jinnah’s Vision?

What did the Muslim League & Jinnah want Pakistan to become?


  • Total voters
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here's the deal:

You can either go all out with a sharia constitution in the process of making a 100%, by-the-book, Islamic nation.

Or you can make a nation with a mostly Islamic constitution, but with different aspects to be relevant in the current secular world order.
This would include having the same Islamic by-the-book terms for Judicial matters, but a constitution similar to the one that Pakistan currently has, with moderate Islamic ruling.
The latter has always been the case throughout history of large Islamic empires, such as the ottomans, who often had to rule over large dominions of non-Muslims as well.
Staying relevant in the current day and age is of top priority, as well as keeping the minority non-muslims safe and sound.

Pakistan as a state was formed in the name of Islam, with a constitution meant to endorse Islamic ruling to a moderate extent, whilst staying away from a theocracy. Jinnah's idea was based on the fact that he believed a democratic system was the purest form of Islamic leadership, handing power to the people and preventing state oppression

@AlKardai , bro you found something about sarmad bhai's post?
I have no clue why I did that. must've been a missclick. His post was rational

Good luck to you and @Neelo.

A stranger looking on can only smile sadly, and think that this rationality is the triumph of hope over experience.
Well, the king of the Indians on this forum is agreeing with you.....
 
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It is a pleasure to hear from you after such a long time. May I inquire as to your well-being, esteemed sir?
I am growing older, in fits and starts, but it is so pleasing to see such a rational thread, and such a thought-provoking one, authored by you. It is also so nice to see that you have another rational and balanced view to keep you company. Long may you flourish.

Well, the king of the Indians on this forum is agreeing with you.
You must be joking.
90% of the Indians on this forum loathe me. The feeling is not entirely without reciprocation.
 
People always talk about Muhammad Ali Jinnah but never mentioned the ideological founder of Pakistan which is Allama Iqbal. Jinnah was the best politician chosen to fulfil the dream of Allama Iqbal of a modern Islamic state. Yes JUI and others opposed Pakistan but Jamat Ulema e Pakistan supported Pakistan, they held rallies all over Pakistan in support of Pakistan. An extremist Pakistan was not their dream but a modern Islamic riasat, which promotes education, justice, protection of minorities. Only Zia ul Haq and Afghan jihad changed this, but then again who wouldn't want billions of petrodollars.
PREACH!!

These seculars of today talking shit about Iqbal and dismissing him as a reactionary, and claiming Jinnah wanted a secular Pakistan, forget Iqbal was the ideological mentor of Quaid's struggle after he ended his exile. Quaid said so himself.

Quaid was just the vehicle. The driver was Iqbal.

And anyone with a barely double digit IQ will know Iqbal was a huge proponent of Ijtehad and modern Islam.

It's a shame we barely understand the genius of Iqbal. Molvis use him for their own narrow purposes and seculars dismiss him completely.
 
The original article posted by Ancient Pakistan is quite good, concisely detailing the history of Muslims in the Subcontinent and the tension between the mullah types and secularists. Where he lost me is in the conclusion.

CONCLUSION
Me personally I have a completely different view on the two-nation theory. I've always argued that Pakistan should revert to an Indus nationalist ideology. However, I do understand the difficulties in this happening in my lifetime. That being said, when given the choice between the two, I would choose a Muslim Pakistan over an Islamic Pakistan any day of the week. A Muslim country would guarantee me personal independence and a right to believe in anything I want, including an Indus nationalist ideology which I strive for.

This guy is a ethno-nationalist. As if an Indus Valley Civilization identity is the correct one for Pakistanis. That is a load of Brahminic cow dung.

He wants us to do yogic contortions to create a fantasy, just like Modic Hindus, of a great Indus Valley Civilization history, complete with space ships and nuclear bombs.

Maybe they would like Pakistan to be called Industan, following a new religion Induism.
 
I am growing older, in fits and starts, but it is so pleasing to see such a rational thread, and such a thought-provoking one, authored by you. It is also so nice to see that you have another rational and balanced view to keep you company. Long may you flourish.

As I was engaging in a debate with another member on a different thread today, my mind wandered to the numerous debates we had in the past. How I miss those bygone days when we engaged in heated and intellectually stimulating debates on the complex matter of Kashmir. Though our viewpoints seldom aligned, we upheld a deep respect for each other's perspectives. Alas, in the present time, I find no one with whom I can engage in such passionate and thought-provoking debates, no one who challenges me to put forth my best arguments and requires as much mental energy and concentration as you did. It is with great appreciation that I acknowledge the invaluable lessons I have learned from you. May you enjoy continued good health and happiness in your golden years.
 
UBER EATS drivers in Brampton, Canada…living in a secular, western country and benefiting from that society are going to prevent Pakistan from modernizing and joining the 20th century (forget the 21st century).

Neelo Bibi, You live in Canada yourself and keep berating people for living in the West. You're a supporter of PTI. Our Glorious Leader will be shocked by your promotion of Indus Valley ethno-nationalism. Please reconsider.

BTW, I got a random mailing list email from a lady called Neelo selling real estate. Could that be you?
 
Neelo Bibi, You live in Canada yourself and keep berating people for living in the West. You're a supporter of PTI. Our Glorious Leader will be shocked by your promotion of Indus Valley ethno-nationalism. Please reconsider.

BTW, I got a random mailing list email from a lady called Neelo selling real estate. Could that be you?
Uhhh it says they live in Lahore
 
PREACH!!

These seculars of today talking shit about Iqbal and dismissing him as a reactionary, and claiming Jinnah wanted a secular Pakistan, forget Iqbal was the ideological mentor of Quaid's struggle after he ended his exile. Quaid said so himself.

Quaid was just the vehicle. The driver was Iqbal.

And anyone with a barely double digit IQ will know Iqbal was a huge proponent of Ijtehad and modern Islam.

It's a shame we barely understand the genius of Iqbal. Molvis use him for their own narrow purposes and seculars dismiss him completely.

Facts. Allama Iqbal didn't want a state like Afghanistan but an modern Islamic riayasat. Something like Malaysia/Indonesia i would say. He wanted investment in science, technology, education, education for both sexes, rights for the weak, non Muslims, animals. Unfortunately majority of the Muslim ummah is uneducated to understand his message and molvis pick and choose. However the real ulema know Iqbal was right but what can they do when noone listens to them. Iqbal didn't want to force religion on people because he knew it will end badly but he wanted the state to educate the people, let the people witness the beauty of Islam, he wanted the non Muslims to feel safe and secure because its Islamic state job to provide security and rights.

The major issue i see is the people of Pakistan dont have critical thinking, they cant see outside the box and continue to live in their small holes. To change this they first need to start reading, then try to understand the real message of Islam. Islam doesn't want to force people, but it wants to educate the people about their purpose of life so they can be guided on the haqq. Islam is clearly against bribery, corruption, false statements, killing, stealing, overtaking other people lands, their rights etc but will the people follow this in their lives, at the moment we haven't witnessed anything Islamic about Muslims, if this is what the people choose then how can we blame Allama Iqbal or Pakistan state. The people are the torch bearers of the Islamic riyasat.

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As I was engaging in a debate with another member on a different thread today, my mind wandered to the numerous debates we had in the past. How I miss those bygone days when we engaged in heated and intellectually stimulating debates on the complex matter of Kashmir. Though our viewpoints seldom aligned, we upheld a deep respect for each other's perspectives. Alas, in the present time, I find no one with whom I can engage in such passionate and thought-provoking debates, no one who challenges me to put forth my best arguments and requires as much mental energy and concentration as you did. It is with great appreciation that I acknowledge the invaluable lessons I have learned from you. May you enjoy continued good health and happiness in your golden years.

Some of the best stuff this forum has produced at its apex. I have best parts archived for my own ongoing (slow) research.
 
Jinnah was a man, he was not an infallible being. His ideas and beliefs changed and shifted throughout his life, which is why everyone from communists to secularists and Islamists will quote him to support their beliefs.

Nor does it really matter, a country that tries to model it's political ideology strictly upon the diversely interpreted beliefs of it's founder sabotages itself of progress.

The issue with the debate in this thread is that there is a perception that Islam poses a threat to our ethnocultural/regional identity or that our ethnocultural/regional identity poses a threat to our Islamic identity, that there has to be either one or the other. That is simply not true, neither was Pakistan solely founded upon Islam as one side claims nor was Pakistan founded to be a secular state.

To address both sides here:

Pakistan was never intended to be based solely upon Islam nor is such an identity even feasible, as the separation of East Pakistan highlighted. Choudary Rehmat Ali, the original founder, first began to conceive the idea of Pakistan as a pushback to what he perceived as a British attempt to "Indianize" and erase the distinct ethnocultural identities of the peoples that comprised what is now known as Pakistan.

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"India, constituted as it is at the present moment, is not the name of one single country; nor the home of one single nation. It is, in fact, the designation of a State created by the British for the first time in history. It includes peoples who have never previously formed part of the Indian nation at any period of its history, but who have, on the contrary, from the dawn of history till the advent of the British, possessed and retained distinct nationalities of their own". ~ Now or Never, 1933

"The congress had designated all British possessions in South Asia as India denied to the non Indian nations the right to their own nationhood, and, by making pretentious claims, stamped Indian nationality on the peoples of this area." ~ What does the Pakistan National Movement Stand For? Pamphlet, 1930's

"That is, the statement which was to save us from national self-destruction on the altar of "Indians", safeguard our right to distinct national existence, mark the appearance of a de-Indianized Muslim country of nearly 35 million people, protect the heritage of the first three centuries of our history, inflict the first decisive defeat on the forces of "Indianism", and last, but by no means least, alter forever the course of the Millat, of Dinia (South Asia), and, I dare say, of Asia." ~ Ch, Millet and the Mission, 1930's

"This mistake has certainly cost us dear. It has compromised our nationality and labelled us all as "Indian". I say this, not because there is anything wrong with the word "India" which, in itself, is perhaps as respectable as any other name; but because we are not "Indian" and, therefore, for us to style ourselves or our institutions "Indian", is nothing but an act of renegation." ~ Ch, The Menace of Indianism, 1930's

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It is also often claimed that the idea of Pakistani identity incorporating aspects of it's native culture, heritage and history as a recent development is also false. Choudary Rehmat Ali drew heavily upon Pakistan's both pre-Islamic and Islamic heritage as among the basis for Pakistan and it's identity.

----

"It will therefore be seen that Pakistan is one of the most ancient and illustrious countries of the Orient. Not only that. It is the only nation in the world which in the antiquity of its legend and lore, as in the character of its history and hopes, compares with Iraq and Egypt -the countries which are known as the cradle of the achievements of Mankind." ~ Fatherland of the Pak Nation

"It must be remembered that, in different periods of its life, Pakistan has had different names -names whose very variety epitomizes its past history, just as its present name symbolizes its present position, its future prospects, and its ultimate destiny in the world" ~ Fatherland of the Pak Nation

"The Mihran, also known as the Indus, is the longest, the greatest, and the most truly national river of Pakistan, and its course lies through most of the provinces of the country" ~ Ch, Physical Features

"In their origin the Paks belong to the stock from which sprang those gifted tribes of the pre-historic times who created and developed the oldest civilization of the Mihran Valley and, for that matter, of the world." Ch, Ethnical Stocks

"Pakistan, as already mentioned, was one of the three civilized regions of the globe~the other two being Iraq and Egypt. This fact stands out prominently against the dim hack-ground of that still ill-defined period in the growth of the human race. It shows that, in pre-history, Pakistan was one of the lands where civilization was born; where Man made
his first attempts at courting Nature for his subsistence; and where he achieved his first successes in his elemental struggle for life." ~ Ch, National Story

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It is also made clear in the Pakistan Declaration, that religion is one of three pillars (and not the sole pillar) for the foundation of Pakistan:

"I am enclosing herewith an appeal on behalf of the thirty million Muslims of PAKISTAN, who live in the five Northern Units of India--Punjab, North-West Frontier (Afghan) Province, Kashmir, Sind, and Baluchistan. It embodies their demand for the recognition of their national status, as distinct from the other inhabitants of India, by the grant to Pakistan of a separate Federal Constitution on religious, social and historical grounds." ~ Pakistan Declaration, 1933

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However, that is not to say that Pakistan is independent of Islam as shown in the quote above.

We do not base our values and laws on what old white men think is right or wrong. Our values, laws and rules of governance are clearly enshrined in the Quran and Hadith, it is a system that all Muslims should strive for. To claim that our problems are the result of political Islam is nonsense considering that our laws and governance are already based on Western values and we are only Islamic on paper. Coming from someone that once completely embraced the ideas espoused in this article, I see Islam and Islamic governance as the only antidote to our political and social troubles, without it, we will always be in strife.

If one claims to support democratic values, then they should concede the fact that Pakistanis overwhelmingly desire Islamic law and governance.

He wanted investment in science, technology, education, education for both sexes, rights for the weak, non Muslims, animals
How would an Islamic state contradict any of this?
 
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How would an Islamic state contradict any of this?

Many mullahs are against science, maths, technology education etc, they call is secular western education, they believe only learning Quran, Hadith is beneficial. The historical Islamic states had advance technology, they invested in to science, technology etc. The old Maddrassas were like modern schools.
 
Says who? Show me proof;



Still waiting for your evidence…don’t blow yourself up now.



You’re literally one of the only rational voices on this forum. The rest of these Zia products are literally walking suicide bombers….

Abusing folks isn't rational. Watch your posts please.
 

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