Muslim Indians Should Demand A Seperate Nation:--

[Joe Shearer]

Hi,

Hello Joe---how are you doing sir? Rome---senators---democracy-----it is all fascinating-----but if you dig deeper into it----there is one basic fundamental that you would find in the success of Rome over the centuries-----.

In order for them to have a democracy---they had to have the rue of law----and to have the rule of law---they FORCED ORDER UPON THE SOCIETY----which basically meant that the democratic rome was a police state till the public formed and conducted its business in an orderly manner---so that the rule of law could be imposed.

Stephen Hunter is one of my favorite writers---in many of his books his main character is Bob Lee Swagger---. So---Bob is talking too an attorney---and the attorney asks Bob-----" If you have to do it---would you have Order in the society or impose the Rule of Law "----?

What the question was leading to is---that unless you do not have order in the society---you cannot impose the writ of the state---so you can impose the rule of law----.

Hindustan must regain order and control over those creating mischief and bring them under the rule of law---. The issues are like dry tinder being exposed to wild sparks of anger and anxiety----. This is a recipe for a disaster of a massive magnitude.

The issue needs to addressed---taken charge of and brought under control---.

Christ, you've got right to the heart of it.

 

[Bang Galore]

But that rule doesn't seem to apply when Mr. Modi is heading the central government.

Yeah, I'm troubled by the way that this argument goes. Let us for a moment assume that PM Modi was uninclined to take on the right wingers, what exactly are the state governments doing? I could understand if the state government were BJP ruled & they were accused of complicity but what on earth prevents Akhilesh Yadav from arresting & putting behind bars anyone who is involved, even better for him if they were from the BJP or associated organisations. Why does the Karnataka government not crack down hard on the loony groups including those behind the Kalburgi murder? One may make out a moral case for the PM to speak up about this but what about the actual constitutional responsibility that falls on the states & their Chief Ministers? There are no excuses for the SP & the Congress, are they waiting for the PM's nod?

This absolute abdication of responsibility and the encouragement of doing so by the " intellectuals" is astonishing. Why is there no pressure on the Congress government & the SP government & indeed their parties to "expose" the "right wingers"? I can understand if Modi was being blamed alongside pressure on the state governments concerned but this ridiculous idea that it is only Modi's fault is only guaranteed to make this an argument that will end up getting dismissed as being part of political speak.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Yeah, I'm troubled by the way that this argument goes. Let us for a moment assume that PM Modi was uninclined to take on the right wingers, what exactly are the state governments doing? I could understand if the state government were BJP ruled & they were accused of complicity but what on earth prevents Akhilesh Yadav from arresting & putting behind bars anyone who is involved, even better for him if they were from the BJP or associated organisations. Why does the Karnataka government not crack down hard on the loony groups including those behind the Kalburgi murder? One may make out a moral case for the PM to speak up about this but what about the actual constitutional responsibility that falls on the states & their Chief Ministers? There are no excuses for the SP & the Congress, are they waiting for the PM's nod?

And when I said the exact thing about the Gujarat riots, what was the reaction? Including from those most balanced of commentators such as you?

Isn't it in the least degree ironic that when Modi is in charge of a state government and hundreds die, it is then not his fault, but a situation going out of hand, and in any case, the police (reporting to him and to his minions, but that is a small detail) didn't chargesheet him, the courts appointed a special investigation team that could find nothing wrong in what he did?

Now that he is where the blame was supposed to lie, in Vajpayee's government at the centre, he needs another pass, because now - what an astonishing development - it is the state that should have acted, after all.

This absolute abdication of responsibility and the encouragement of doing so by the " intellectuals" is astonishing. Why is there no pressure on the Congress government & the SP government & indeed their parties to "expose" the "right wingers"?

Do I really need to draw the parallels? To the earlier situation, I mean? The encourage of absolute abdication of responsibility by right wing and extreme right wing intellectuals?

And when I say this, I do so with complete condemnation of the SP, and with disappointment with the Congress government and its supine attitude.

I can understand if Modi was being blamed alongside pressure on the state governments concerned but this ridiculous idea that it is only Modi's fault is only guaranteed to make this an argument that will end up getting dismissed as being part of political speak.

It will, more's the pity, partly because of the increasingly out-of-control attitude of the Sangh apparatchiks.

 

[dadeechi]

Yeah, I'm troubled by the way that this argument goes. Let us for a moment assume that PM Modi was uninclined to take on the right wingers, what exactly are the state governments doing? I could understand if the state government were BJP ruled & they were accused of complicity but what on earth prevents Akhilesh Yadav from arresting & putting behind bars anyone who is involved, even better for him if they were from the BJP or associated organisations. Why does the Karnataka government not crack down hard on the loony groups including those behind the Kalburgi murder? One may make out a moral case for the PM to speak up about this but what about the actual constitutional responsibility that falls on the states & their Chief Ministers? There are no excuses for the SP & the Congress, are they waiting for the PM's nod?

This absolute abdication of responsibility and the encouragement of doing so by the " intellectuals" is astonishing. Why is there no pressure on the Congress government & the SP government & indeed their parties to "expose" the "right wingers"? I can understand if Modi was being blamed alongside pressure on the state governments concerned but this ridiculous idea that it is only Modi's fault is only guaranteed to make this an argument that will end up getting dismissed as being part of political speak.

The fact of the matter is these incidents help both parties to radicalize and garner votes from their respective constituents. If both of them are blamed then there would be just apathy instead of radicalization hence no division of votes. There is a method to this madness.

And when I said the exact thing about the Gujarat riots, what was the reaction? Including from those most balanced of commentators such as you?

Isn't it in the least degree ironic that when Modi is in charge of a state government and hundreds die, it is then not his fault, but a situation going out of hand, and in any case, the police (reporting to him and to his minions, but that is a small detail) didn't chargesheet him, the courts appointed a special investigation team that could find nothing wrong in what he did?

Now that he is where the blame was supposed to lie, in Vajpayee's government at the centre, he needs another pass, because now - what an astonishing development - it is the state that should have acted, after all.



Do I really need to draw the parallels? To the earlier situation, I mean? The encourage of absolute abdication of responsibility by right wing and extreme right wing intellectuals?

And when I say this, I do so with complete condemnation of the SP, and with disappointment with the Congress government and its supine attitude.



It will, more's the pity, partly because of the increasingly out-of-control attitude of the Sangh apparatchiks.

Well, You also said that the people in the train got killed due to a culinary fire.

 

[nForce]

And when I said the exact thing about the Gujarat riots, what was the reaction? Including from those most balanced of commentators such as you?

Isn't it in the least degree ironic that when Modi is in charge of a state government and hundreds die, it is then not his fault, but a situation going out of hand, and in any case, the police (reporting to him and to his minions, but that is a small detail) didn't chargesheet him, the courts appointed a special investigation team that could find nothing wrong in what he did?

Now that he is where the blame was supposed to lie, in Vajpayee's government at the centre, he needs another pass, because now - what an astonishing development - it is the state that should have acted, after all.



Do I really need to draw the parallels? To the earlier situation, I mean? The encourage of absolute abdication of responsibility by right wing and extreme right wing intellectuals?

And when I say this, I do so with complete condemnation of the SP, and with disappointment with the Congress government and its supine attitude.



It will, more's the pity, partly because of the increasingly out-of-control attitude of the Sangh apparatchiks.

It's easy to be politically correct. It comes cheap.
Internet, newsprint and social media is full of how it is all Modi's fault, that a lot of people got killed in riots. But not a fraction of that attention goes towards those who halted a train in a station, locked up a whole coach and set it on fire, with all the people inside it, in broad daylight. Why do people always talk about what followed and hardly talk about what started it ?

What empowers these people to think, that they can do something like this and go scot-free ?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Hi,

Hello Joe---how are you doing sir? Rome---senators---democracy-----it is all fascinating-----but if you dig deeper into it----there is one basic fundamental that you would find in the success of Rome over the centuries-----.

In order for them to have a democracy---they had to have the rule of law----and to have the rule of law---they FORCED ORDER UPON THE SOCIETY----which basically meant that the democratic rome was a police state till the public formed and conducted its business in an orderly manner---so that the rule of law could be imposed.

Stephen Hunter is one of my favorite writers---in many of his books his main character is Bob Lee Swagger---. So---Bob is talking too an attorney---and the attorney asks Bob-----" If you have to do it---would you have Order in the society or impose the Rule of Law "----?

Let me tell you from personal experience, if you will bear with me.

I studied in a college that was leftist from way back, from its inception, actually. When I first reached there, there was an uneasy stand-off between the communists and the congress supporters. It took very little time to decide that the congress deserved to be wound up then and there. The communists were more engaging, and it took two years to figure out how rotten they were. My vote for the left was hijacked by the Maoists, who made it their vote.

We couldn't talk freely. Everything was monitored, every action noted and remembered, I was up before the people's court for opinions, for my lamentable dress code, for my social associations. Some of us spent a few very fraught hours in a police lock-up - personally very embarrassing, it made banner headlines the next morning because of the irony of the situation.

The same thing happened in the state. A stranger in a locality ran the very real risk of being detained, questioned and killed, or just straight away getting killed. Medical representatives and door-to-door salesmen practically died as a breed. Killings proliferated. There were no witnesses. Everybody went inside and locked the doors when the 'boys' were on the prowl. This was the complete breakdown of order, and it led to the complete breakdown of the law. It was strange how quickly we got used to living without any rules whatsoever.

As India is getting used.

What the question was leading to is---that unless you do not have order in the society---you cannot impose the writ of the state---so you can impose the rule of law----.

Hindustan must regain order and control over those creating mischief and bring them under the rule of law---. The issues are like dry tinder being exposed to wild sparks of anger and anxiety----. This is a recipe for a disaster of a massive magnitude.

The issue needs to addressed---taken charge of and brought under control---.

What can I say to those imbeciles who think good things are happening?

The fact of the matter is these incidents help both parties to radicalize and garner votes from their respective constituents. If both of them are blamed then there would be just apathy instead of radicalization hence no division of votes. There is a method to this madness.

Which part of what you wrote justifies the insanity on display on this forum?

Well, You also said that the people in the train got killed due to a culinary fire.

Look up my exact words, and then come back and apologise in public.

 

[SQ8]

The same thing happened in the state. A stranger in a locality ran the very real risk of being detained, questioned and killed, or just straight away getting killed. Medical representatives and door-to-door salesmen practically died as a breed. Killings proliferated. There were no witnesses. Everybody went inside and locked the doors when the 'boys' were on the prowl. This was the complete breakdown of order, and it led to the complete breakdown of the law. It was strange how quickly we got used to living without any rules whatsoever..

If its any consolation, its a common issue in the third world.

 

[Joe Shearer]

It's easy to be politically correct. It comes cheap.
Internet, newsprint and social media is full of how it is all Modi's fault, that a lot of people got killed in riots. But not a fraction of that attention goes towards those who halted a train in a station, locked up a whole coach and set it on fire, with all the people inside it, in broad daylight. Why do people always talk about what followed and hardly talk about what started it ?

What empowers these people to think, that they can do something like this and go scot-free ?

Exactly the same thing that causes people to run riot through a city and drag out and kill men, women and children, safe in the knowledge that the police are with them. Not Ahmedabad alone; also Mumbai.

How are these justified?

Is the reaction to the train deaths necessarily vigilante action? Are you saying it's OK to let that happen, the state can sub-contract law and order to a mob?

If its any consolation, its a common issue in the third world.

It didn't last. It was wiped out, and culminated in 600 activists/ terrorists/ insurrectionists getting killed, all on one long, bloody night. How we've managed to wipe that out of living memory, and how we go about as if that never happened.

 

[vsdoc]

But that rule doesn't seem to apply when Mr. Modi is heading the central government.

Bingo.

What's sauce for the Hindutvawadi is pond slime for the liberal.

 

[dadeechi]

Which part of what you wrote justifies the insanity on display on this forum?

Look up my exact words, and then come back and apologise in public.

I cannot be held responsible for the insane posts on this forum. I will be happy to be accountable and responsible for any of my posts.

 

[nForce]

Exactly the same thing that causes people to run riot through a city and drag out and kill men, women and children, safe in the knowledge that the police are with them. Not Ahmedabad alone; also Mumbai.

How are these justified?

Is the reaction to the train deaths necessarily vigilante action? Are you saying it's OK to let that happen, the state can sub-contract law and order to a mob?

No, its not justified.. God no...

But, I think most of us, in the tail part of this thread have got a pretty good idea about how social media works, the peer cloud, it's overwhelming effects on bending opinions in subtle manner. It's Goebbels all along. I have seen people talk. When they do, they always talk about the riot. I ask, "Why do they NOT talk about burning of that train compartment in the SAME breath ?" Why is that part left out ? What message are we trying to send here ?
Two wrongs don't make one right, yeah I get it. Well, I will add to that - Nobody's right, when everybody is wrong.

 

[illusion8]

[QUOTE ="Joe Shearer, post: 7808310, member: 15420"]And when I said the exact thing about the Gujarat riots, what was the reaction? Including from those most balanced of commentators such as you?

Isn't it in the least degree ironic that when Modi is in charge of a state government and hundreds die, it is then not his fault, but a situation going out of hand, and in any case, the police (reporting to him and to his minions, but that is a small detail) didn't chargesheet him, the courts appointed a special investigation team that could find nothing wrong in what he did?

Now that he is where the blame was supposed to lie, in Vajpayee's government at the centre, he needs another pass, because now - what an astonishing development - it is the state that should have acted, after all.



Do I really need to draw the parallels? To the earlier situation, I mean? The encourage of absolute abdication of responsibility by right wing and extreme right wing intellectuals?

And when I say this, I do so with complete condemnation of the SP, and with disappointment with the Congress government and its supine attitude.



It will, more's the pity, partly because of the increasingly out-of-control attitude of the Sangh apparatchiks.[/QUOTE]

There is no precedence of suing the state or its head in any other riots ..more people died in the aftermath of the mumbai bomb blasts, or the 84 riots, or the coimbatore riots.

States have been unable to control any of them.

 

[SQ8]

It didn't last. It was wiped out, and culminated in 600 activists/ terrorists/ insurrectionists getting killed, all on one long, bloody night. How we've managed to wipe that out of living memory, and how we go about as if that never happened.

It is controlled national narrative and there is nothing new on it. Had an argument with some sanctimonious fellow(as if we dont have enough of those in the world) from the West coast here with Buddha for his display picture on how Pakistan supporting the Haqqanis was not a unique activity when it comes to protecting national interests. In the end, the realization hits early that one has better chance of training a cat to make sushi without giving into the temptation of having fish when compared to convincing such folk even with well recorded date and/or events. This thread and many others reek of them(and I mean every section).

I cannot express how much I appreciate your efforts in trying to put your point across in a civil elucidated way; since I've come into the point where my life is dictated by a verse of the Quran which is always wrongly translated as "you unto your religion and I unto mine", when the correct meaning in context and by inference to the metaphors of the time means "You unto your deeds and I unto mine". It is not a message of live and let live as much as a message of "we'll see what we'll see".

When it comes to the 101010101011 of PDF, it is the best policy to apply in my humble opinion.

 

[Joe Shearer]

No, its not justified.. God no...

But, I think most of us, in the tail part of this thread have got a pretty good idea about how social media works, the peer cloud, it's overwhelming effects on bending opinions in subtle manner. It's Goebbels all along. I have seen people talk. When they do, they always talk about the riot. I ask, "Why do they NOT talk about burning of that train compartment in the SAME breath ?" Why is that part left out ? What message are we trying to send here ?
Two wrongs don't make one right, yeah I get it. Well, I will add to that - Nobody's right, when everybody is wrong.

Then it needs people to start somewhere, anywhere, pointing out that things are wrong, not pussyfooting around pretending that the coming economic miracle is going to make everything all right.

Have any of you in your pack got the guts to come out and say that?

It is controlled national narrative and there is nothing new on it. Had an argument with some sanctimonious fellow(as if we dont have enough of those in the world) from the West coast here with Buddha for his display picture on how Pakistan supporting the Haqqanis was not a unique activity when it comes to protecting national interests. In the end, the realization hits early that one has better chance of training a cat to make sushi without giving into the temptation of having fish when compared to convincing such folk even with well recorded date and/or events. This thread and many others reek of them(and I mean every section).

I cannot express how much I appreciate your efforts in trying to put your point across in a civil elucidated way; since I've come into the point where my life is dictated by a verse of the Quran which is always wrongly translated as "you unto your religion and I unto mine", when the correct meaning in context and by inference to the metaphors of the time means "You unto your deeds and I unto mine". It is not a message of live and let live as much as a message of "we'll see what we'll see".

When it comes to the 101010101011 of PDF, it is the best policy to apply in my humble opinion.

So true.

And so much what i believe in now, in the absence of religion. As I keep saying to a young sprog, "Deeds and not words shall speak me." Judge me by what I do, and by what I stand up for, not by my lip service to some ready-made formula, not by my supine silence when it was needed to stand up and be counted.

And **** this pack of rabid rightists. If they think they can bully me into keeping quiet, they have another think coming.

I cannot be held responsible for the insane posts on this forum. I will be happy to be accountable and responsible for any of my posts.

Might I ask why you are unwilling to apply the same principle to those whom you are questioning?

 

[SQ8]

So true.

And so much what i believe in now, in the absence of religion. As I keep saying to a young sprog, "Deeds and not words shall speak me." Judge me by what I do, and by what I stand up for, not by my lip service to some ready-made formula, not by my supine silence when it was needed to stand up and be counted.

And **** this pack of rabid rightists. If they think they can bully me into keeping quiet, they have another think coming.?

Have faith Monseigneur , Humans have only occupied a minuscle fraction of the 13.7 billion year history of the third rock from the sun.