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Muslim Indians Should Demand A Seperate Nation:--

Instead of reforming the law and order machinery, it seems we are more busy at dealing accusations.

Here is the problem with that mon ami. Our back-home states have a history of corruption in law and order that is older than time itself it seems. However, the law for that matter does not change. When you brought in the principle of Pakistan, lets take the Qadiaynis as an example.. they are declared as non-muslims.. the MAJORITY believes they are non-muslims.. and hence, regardless of right or wrong.. the constitution reflects the will of the people as to how they wish to govern themselves.

Coming to India, the constitution CLEARLY states that India is a secular nation for all its inhabitants; yet right now.. its leadership, the majority that supports that leadership.. is not sending that message. Which means they do not respect or do not agree with the constitution of India. So where you have a case where the law reflects the will of the people, here the law is now being made a piece of paper and the will of some 60-70% of the population is being reflected.

Which leaves two ends:

Either the people end up with the realization that they are not being led down a path they wish to
Or they realize that they do not agree with the principles the state was founded upon.

The worst case is that they belie the foundations of the state and consider themselves doing the right thing.

We you and I are currently, not much different is happening if one looks at the GoP and its candidates right now; they are a total contradiction to the principles of the US Constitution.
 
That is precisely why I oppose the Hindutvavadis. Nothing wrong with their believing in their religious bigotry, provided it does not affect those of other religions, or the equality of all before the law. The trouble is that they do not believe in the rule of law. A bunch of them has been hounding me for the past few days. If you take the trouble - and it is an excruciating task - of looking at the basis of their claims, it is uniformly that they are the majority, and that therefore what they hold true should be true. Nothing about the law being blind here. In their eagerness and anxiety to score points against me, they have stripped themselves naked in full public view. And not one of them had that fraction of an intellect to realise what they were admitting.

Truly brainless worms beneath contempt.



Don't be a hypocrite. Look around.

Extremists rarely have intellect or respect for anyone that opposes their view. I cant remember where I wrote that the advent of the internet is creating more idiots than it was flouted to destroy due to "free information".

That's the question I am asking seeing the trend of linking every event of crime that is happening (or not actually happening) around the country to the central government, Mr. Modi to be specific.
The Crime that is being linked to PM Modi is NOT that he is responsible or that his government is; it is the blind eye that he is turned to it. Which is not the slightest bit different to what he did in Gujrat during the riots.

Its something I told people early on; Narendra Modi may be a good business-minded politician who genuinely wants to develop India for the entirety of its population

BUT
He is also a narcissistic egomaniac who will go to any lengths to keep his seat, his development of India is linked to his narcissism. That example is reflected perfectly in Gujrat and his bad rep from there. It was not him that hates Muslims, he could not care if he had to personally clean the bottom of Muslims to get development done and have his constituency move ahead, but he wishes to be loved for it; he wishes to be loved by a majority and those that fuel his core seat of power.

And so, the crime of Narendra Modi was NOT that he ordered the killings of Muslims and so on; but that he stood by and did not spring into action to stop it. His crime was that he let his base of power which were the extreme Hindutvadis (should not say much as these days I work for a wonderful gentleman who was once an active RSS member) go around with their minions and wreak havoc with their hate.

The crime of not doing the right thing and instead holding onto their seat of power because they know as long as the majority is happy, the minority can be kissed and hugged later with a box of bandaids and lollipops.
Its the same happening all over India now, and will continue to happen.

Narendra Modi is not the monster he is made out to be, at least not in the sense of some Hitler or otherwise. He is a politician who wants his seat- BEFORE he wants to help his people. To keep that seat, he is willing to overlook anything, and that is a crime in itself.
 
Gentlemen and ladies,

It gives me great pride to start this thread----. A lot of changes have occurred in the indian sub-continent in the last year or two.

The relationship of the hindus towards other minorities has taken a dive for the worst. The persecution of the Christians, Sikhs and muslims is reaching new heights.

The ban on eating cow meat and the execution of those who do---is going to setup a new trend in the hate relation between the different ethnic groups of Hindustan.

Its like Hitler lecturing about democracy! There is no minority remained in Pakistan, what about them? Even the cricket players are converted!!! What about your blasphemy law???
 
Its like Hitler lecturing about democracy! There is no minority remained in Pakistan, what about them? Even the cricket players are converted!!! What about your blasphemy law???


Hi,

You correct----blasphemy law is sick---it is perverted---there is no place for that law in this world----. It should be and must be abolished---.

And there is nothing about Hitler lecturing about democracy----.
 
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Hi,

You correct----blasphemy law is sick---it is perverted---there is no place for that law in this world----. It should be and must be abolished---.

And there is nothing about Hitler lecturing about democracy----.

You Indians are lucky that Pakistan has a KHASSI Prime Minister---who would rather open up business in india

What I meant is your country finished off all minorities in last 50 years. Hindu population reduced from 16% to 1.4%. While Muslim population has grown in India. So you need to have some minority first, isn't it?

Yess, you are leaderless unlike India has modi. We cant do anything about that.

I am leaving your constitutional blasphemy law aside, as you also dont like it.
 
Forgive me, but With Mr. Rao in the Centre, and well aware of Rath yatra and it's implication, was it not center's prerogative to diffuse the situation knowing that Kalyan Singhs Government was sympathetic to the entire issue.

Let's not waste time; you are obviously not too well clued up. The answer is no. Law and order is not even on the concurrent list. The centre has no prerogative, and cannot impose its will on a state government.

Precisely the situation when Vajpayee was PM and Modi was allowing the Gujarat riots to happen.

And applying the same Kalyan Singh isn't UP gov't currently - SP's, Compared to babri masjid, this was much of a local incidence and wouldn't Akhilesh Singh's state machinery be responsible for dispersing such crowds.

Of course it is.

Does it really? if it did why the selective outrage by our great writers and intelligentsia,

That ship has sailed. Everybody is aware of the situation as it was, and as it is...

I am not concerned about either of the parties, whether it's a scumbag from one party or the other, it's still a scumbag, and deserve to be behind the bars, - That is the job of the Law, and that is where the failure is.

And that leaves the pols clear? It is precisely the blackmail of the pols that keeps the police in suspended animation.

There has been no change in the legal framework of the country that stops the law from taking it's course- And that is
what I am trying to say. Whether it's a Muslim mob or a Hindu mob, 5.56x45Nato will disperse them alike.

It's always about the judgement. If all were allowed to do things their way.....
 
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Let's not waste time; you are obviously not too well clued up. The answer is no. Law and order is not even on the concurrent list. The centre has no prerogative, and cannot impose its will on a state government.

Precisely the situation when Vajpayee was PM and Modi was allowing the Gujarat riots to happen.



Of course it is.



That ship has sailed. Everybody is aware of the situation as it was, and as it is...



And that leaves the pols clear? It is precisely the blackmail of the pols that keeps the police in suspended animation.

[quote\There has been no change in the legal framework of the country that stops the law from taking it's course- And that is
what I am trying to say. Whether it's a Muslim mob or a Hindu mob, 5.56x45Nato will disperse them alike.

It's always about the judgement. If all were allowed to do things their way.....[/QUOTE]

dada,

It is true that that I am not well clued up, that is the reason I am engaging in this debate to learn... usually I would press the thank button, and scroll because I am 100% agreement. Taking a different position is ease in to the narrative you are presenting.

With a one of the smallest law enforcement to civilian ratio, breakdown in law and order mechanism is inevitable, but saying that remember how most of Nodia district naxals were culled.

in my limited knowledge, let me try and understand, are you saying that because of this particular government (which is replica of previous NDA minus Modi), there is a sentiment that Fringe Hindu groups can do whatever they want? (or do a SS/MNS type action which they have been doing irrespective of their electoral position of the power in the center) - Is that what you are saying? -

If yes, what action/steps should be undertaken for damage control, or atleast avoid such incidences in future?

Can the Supreme court of India, direct the center to take actions if the center according to you is already compromised?

Here is the problem with that mon ami. Our back-home states have a history of corruption in law and order that is older than time itself it seems. However, the law for that matter does not change. When you brought in the principle of Pakistan, lets take the Qadiaynis as an example.. they are declared as non-muslims.. the MAJORITY believes they are non-muslims.. and hence, regardless of right or wrong.. the constitution reflects the will of the people as to how they wish to govern themselves.

Coming to India, the constitution CLEARLY states that India is a secular nation for all its inhabitants; yet right now.. its leadership, the majority that supports that leadership.. is not sending that message. Which means they do not respect or do not agree with the constitution of India. So where you have a case where the law reflects the will of the people, here the law is now being made a piece of paper and the will of some 60-70% of the population is being reflected.

Which leaves two ends:

Either the people end up with the realization that they are not being led down a path they wish to
Or they realize that they do not agree with the principles the state was founded upon.

The worst case is that they belie the foundations of the state and consider themselves doing the right thing.

We you and I are currently, not much different is happening if one looks at the GoP and its candidates right now; they are a total contradiction to the principles of the US Constitution.


But that is what I am trying to say, majority of India cannot be held responsible for some fringe elements that rioted or, killed someone - and these are not a new development. These as$holes have been doing that for a long time.

India did not vote for Modi- for some mythical Hindu Rashtra, India voted for him for very simple issues, like inflation, rising prices, better roads, better schools, better governance, strong leadership, better economy. That is what they ran on, from @Joe Shearer 's comments it is extremely worrying that people in India are feeling that government is complicit in this non-sense, which I pray and hope not.

SP in UP is nothing less devious than the most heinous bollywood villains, which complicates the issue quite a bit. Maybe I am mixing issues, but there is more than what is seems in simplistic evaluations of what has been happening.
 
But that is what I am trying to say, majority of India cannot be held responsible for some fringe elements that rioted or, killed someone - and these are not a new development. These as$holes have been doing that for a long time.

India did not vote for Modi- for some mythical Hindu Rashtra, India voted for him for very simple issues, like inflation, rising prices, better roads, better schools, better governance, strong leadership, better economy. That is what they ran on, from @Joe Shearer 's comments it is extremely worrying that people in India are feeling that government is complicit in this non-sense, which I pray and hope not.

SP in UP is nothing less devious than the most heinous bollywood villains, which complicates the issue quite a bit. Maybe I am mixing issues, but there is more than what is seems in simplistic evaluations of what has been happening.

They cannot be held responsible for those acts, but they can be held morally responsible for staying silent. A Christian encampment was burnt out here and apart from the social butterfly club that would have a rainbow profile picture while berating homosexuality, no one else actually did much. There were no protests against it. That shows you that the majority while not complicit, is apathetic or even secretly supportive of the situation.

The same way, the majority may have brought in Modi to develop India.. and he does seem to get some headway, so if that is happening; then they will have no issues if he orders gas chambers for Muslims or any other minority because to them it that is on the road to get to the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow shown to them by Modi.

What we are seeing in India is what we might end up seeing in the Southern US if (heaven forbid) Trump got into power. There will be development because the man knows his business, but at the same time; a mosque may be burnt down or illegal Mexicans might be rounded up and butchered.. and all he would do is lip service.
 
This demand would probably make sense if we look at the way Indian Muslims are being systematically and increasingly marginalized in their own homeland. They are looked upon with suspicion and hostility. They find it difficult to get into government service. Trade and industry do not employ them. Economically vast majority of them have been ruined and the deterioration gets more severe every day. Culturally it is expected of them to be assimilated into the general Hindu milieu. The repeated occurrence of communal violence and the failure of the law and order machinery to protect the life, property and honor of the Muslim minority is the outcome of a sustained hatred, garbled versions of Indian history, traditions and prejudices against the Muslim. The choice lies with the Indians. Do they want to emerge as a modern secular state which protects the fundamental rights of its citizens of whatsoever creed, colour or religion, guaranteed under their secular constitution or do they want to lark back to the dark ages of Hindu religionism. In case they choose the latter, they are bound to BALKANIZE.
 
It's always about the judgement. If all were allowed to do things their way.....

dada,

It is true that that I am not well clued up, that is the reason I am engaging in this debate to learn... usually I would press the thank button, and scroll because I am 100% agreement. Taking a different position is ease in to the narrative you are presenting.

All right. Let us start again.

With a one of the smallest law enforcement to civilian ratio, breakdown in law and order mechanism is inevitable, but saying that remember how most of Nodia district naxals were culled.

This is a fact; our police to population ratio is one of the lowest in the world. Add to that the very poor pay and the conditions of work, and biased recruitment favouring one section of society over another, and you have
  1. Lax, even negligent administration of the law (refusal to make an FIR, arrests of females outside daylight hours, failure to protect the privacy of the arrested, and all the thousand and one ways in which court directives are violated daily).
  2. Rampant corruption, since there are many things to be done, and enough staff only to do a handful, leading to the need to pay money to get work done rather than have it left undone for months on end.
  3. Complete protection and shelter of habitual criminals, with whom the benefits of crime are shared.
  4. Coming to order, one-sided responses to order-related issues, including siding with one side in a community dispute, punishing one side when a two-way clash occurs, suppression of violence done by a particular side against the other, in general, acting as an armed detachment of one side.
But if, on top of all this, politicians get involved, as they are increasingly getting involved, then the situation becomes not one reflecting a state governed by a constitution, but a state governed by a powerful faction within the people, who browbeat the rest of the people because of their control and manipulation of the law and order machinery, generally the machinery of the state, secure in the knowledge that nothing will happen to them, they can do what they want.

in my limited knowledge, let me try and understand, are you saying that because of this particular government (which is replica of previous NDA minus Modi), there is a sentiment that Fringe Hindu groups can do whatever they want? (or do a SS/MNS type action which they have been doing irrespective of their electoral position of the power in the center) - Is that what you are saying? -

Please see my section above yours. Please say what you think I am saying, in response to your questions.

If yes, what action/steps should be undertaken for damage control, or atleast avoid such incidences in future?

The leader selected by the nation, Modi, should publicly denounce breaches of the law, incendiary speeches and statements, irresponsible catering to the gallery, post-facto support to law-breakers, minimising and down-playing criminal action as not being as bad as they might have been, or not being criminal at all, or being justified as a reaction to something someone else somewhere far away has done. That last is a recurring theme. Boko Haram does something in Chad, a Muslim gets kicked to death in Unnaon.

The leader has to say, without equivocation, that he does not like this. He cannot be a world class leader on one hand, and a weak, vacillating figure tacitly backing his Sangh Parivar goons on the other.

Can the Supreme court of India, direct the center to take actions if the center according to you is already compromised?

No. Only in some particular matter which has come to it, and which is judiciable. It cannot pass an order that asks for acting in good faith; it can only pass an order asking for proof that action has been taken in good faith.

But that is what I am trying to say, majority of India cannot be held responsible for some fringe elements that rioted or, killed someone - and these are not a new development. These as$holes have been doing that for a long time.

The difference is that there is a dynamic, powerful leader who has been forceful in his public utterances. If he comes to a matter of the kind that we are discussing, and suddenly becomes a mild-voiced, soft-hearted figure of inactivity, don't the arseholes get the message? and don't they and the police then do whatever they want to do without caring for the law?

If anyone is blaming all of India, it is perhaps - I do not know their minds, you have to ask them - because India seems to taking the side of an inactive leader, a biased political support system, and a one-sided constabulary.

India did not vote for Modi- for some mythical Hindu Rashtra, India voted for him for very simple issues, like inflation, rising prices, better roads, better schools, better governance, strong leadership, better economy. That is what they ran on, from @Joe Shearer 's comments it is extremely worrying that people in India are feeling that government is complicit in this non-sense, which I pray and hope not.

Yes, precisely so, but they are behaving as if it was an election which empowers their communal agenda, rather than an election that gave them a mandate to revitalise the economy. There is more activity on the Muslim-bashing front, with front-line politicians encouraging the bashing, and top level leadership reacting with indifference, even with mockery.

SP in UP is nothing less devious than the most heinous bollywood villains, which complicates the issue quite a bit. Maybe I am mixing issues, but there is more than what is seems in simplistic evaluations of what has been happening.

In UP, the lunatics are running the asylum.
 
India should create Muslim and Christian only regions to segregate people and thereby avoid communal riots.
 
That's the question I am asking seeing the trend of linking every event of crime that is happening (or not actually happening) around the country to the central government, Mr. Modi to be specific.

You don't get it.

Nobody is saying, as far as I know, that Modi has instigated a riot. What I am trying to say, what others may or may not have in mind, is that Modi and his peers have remained silent after a riot, or made palliative statements, or evaded the issue altogether, or tacitly supported the perpetrators. Modi has to speak up.

India should create Muslim and Christian only regions to segregate people and thereby avoid communal riots.

I completely disagree. The next step will be to segregate Saiva from Vaishnava from Shakta. Suppose I don't want to go to the Shakta part of town? What will they do for an atheist like me? Ship me out?

This is a temporary escape, not a solution. And it will heighten the gulf between communities, not reduce it.
 
Let's not waste time; you are obviously not too well clued up. The answer is no. Law and order is not even on the concurrent list. The centre has no prerogative, and cannot impose its will on a state government.

Precisely the situation when Vajpayee was PM and Modi was allowing the Gujarat riots to happen.



Of course it is.



That ship has sailed. Everybody is aware of the situation as it was, and as it is...



And that leaves the pols clear? It is precisely the blackmail of the pols that keeps the police in suspended animation.



It's always about the judgement. If all were allowed to do things their way.....


Hi,

Hello Joe---how are you doing sir? Rome---senators---democracy-----it is all fascinating-----but if you dig deeper into it----there is one basic fundamental that you would find in the success of Rome over the centuries-----.

In order for them to have a democracy---they had to have the rule of law----and to have the rule of law---they FORCED ORDER UPON THE SOCIETY----which basically meant that the democratic rome was a police state till the public formed and conducted its business in an orderly manner---so that the rule of law could be imposed.

Stephen Hunter is one of my favorite writers---in many of his books his main character is Bob Lee Swagger---. So---Bob is talking too an attorney---and the attorney asks Bob-----" If you have to do it---would you have Order in the society or impose the Rule of Law "----?

What the question was leading to is---that unless you do not have order in the society---you cannot impose the writ of the state---so you can impose the rule of law----.

Hindustan must regain order and control over those creating mischief and bring them under the rule of law---. The issues are like dry tinder being exposed to wild sparks of anger and anxiety----. This is a recipe for a disaster of a massive magnitude.

The issue needs to addressed---taken charge of and brought under control---.
 
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I completely disagree. The next step will be to segregate Saiva from Vaishnava from Shakta. Suppose I don't want to go to the Shakta part of town? What will they do for an atheist like me? Ship me out?

This is a temporary escape, not a solution. And it will heighten the gulf between communities, not reduce it.

Yes. That is what I mean. let's all have separate communities. We can have one each for atheists, feminists, chauvinists, gays etc. This will ensure that each community can have their own laws in their communities (no uniform civil code)

All the problems India faces are actually due to intermingling. Once segregated

Muslims can have their mosques and madrassas in their communities

Hindus can have Ganesh/Durga statues and garbha dances with no worry of love Jihad
 
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