Musharraf 're-arrested' over Lal Masjid operation.

[Hyperion]

There are no absolutes in life. Lal masjid op was justified, however, the way it dragged for a week, and methodology was incorrect. They could've killed all insurgents (women and children included) in a much decent way (I have no sympathy for terrorists), without that much noise. Many ways to manipulate a situation, but Musharraf went with the most loud one, he wanted to make a big bang, and he got one.

Allah tumhain samajh day meray dost.

simple, surrender to TTP & its supportive politicians, ending up again like occupied IRAQ or afghanistan?
or get to hve a grand marshall revolutionized, militry rule with a rotation in comand, & a patriotic civilian professinol commite to run it?
make your choice, or accept mullha fazal ullha ,s drity feet, to let him become the frist AMIR of TALBANISTAN. where LAL MASJID will be frist chapter in the book of islamic deeds?
choice is yours !

 

[Bratva]

Democracy with an over zealous judiciary, corrupt legislature? No! That being said, martial law and generals are not the answer either. They are all businessmen, who don't give a **** about the country, I know many of them up close.

If you ask me for some magic bullet or some sort of a solution? I don't know of any.

Taliban ruling Islamabad.

 

[Dillinger]

http:// news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1703495.stm
hope it starts working?
you think he was guilty? was that scandle true?
gussmyou dont know a dam how, RAW does its jobs!
guss what, i jst trapped you out?
yes it wasnt was IA, thats why it took so long to respond, & so many lives lost?
sure if task in mumbai would hve given to IA, it would be far better, then hving mambo - jambo bollywood special units doing the lazy job?
in LAL MASJID case we went in with best, we hve & did the best ever posible job?

He probably was guilty, that does not change the fact that you were incorrect. Aluminium caskets are not fabricated out of wood. Furthermore the scam had nothing to do with the casualties incurred by the IA nor were the number of caskets indicative of a figure which exceeds the stated quantum of casualties, ergo disabusing you of your notions and the flawed context in which you are attempting to refer to said scam. I do not suffer fools easily and you have happily plunged yourself into that category headfirst. Nor do I need a link since I already know the details of the scam and have put them in my last post for your education.

The lal masjid operation was justified, I have already stated that. There is no parity between the two operations though. If one is going to dick measure on the basis of military operations which have no connection then there is plenty that the Pakistani armed forces can be beaten with, that is not the purpose of this thread though.

Other than rhetoric, ill formed sentences and loghorrhea you have presented nothing empirical or documented so far. When you do present a cogent rebuttal then we shall perhaps gauge the depth of your knowledge.

@Hyperion that tumor is acting up again.

 

[batmannow]

There are no absolutes in life. Lal masjid op was justified, however, the way it dragged for a week, and methodology was incorrect. They could've killed all insurgents (women and children included) in a much decent way (I have no sympathy for terrorists), without that much noise. Many ways to manipulate a situation, but Musharraf went with the most loud one, he wanted to make a big bang, and he got one.

Allah tumhain samajh day meray dost.

i m nt going to justfy his big bang theory?
but pakistan needed some one, to go big & bang these terrorists, at the time of LAL MASJID & offcourse today? dont you think?
hard core voilent islamists, will allways come up some thing, even you do it, in quitest of methods?
bt then they, will be declaring it, genocides?
so giving them full, time with all the concern peoples, thier friends & who ever could be avalible to talk a surrender, was sent to them?
what was the result?
or we still critisizing musharaf going big bang?
instead today, when the terrorists are banging pakistanis, we are talking a surrender of pakistani state & free offices to the terrorists?
going big, bang with all the time given to terrorists, was justyfied !
so no more, decent methods more then a surrender og pakistani state & free offices to terrorists, with TTp written on the cars they driving in islamabad?

[

 

[batmannow]

He probably was guilty, that does not change the fact that you were incorrect. Aluminium caskets are not fabricated out of wood. Furthermore the scam had nothing to do with the casualties incurred by the IA nor were the number of caskets indicative of a figure which exceeds the stated quantum of casualties, ergo disabusing you of your notions and the flawed context in which you are attempting to refer to said scam. I do not suffer fools easily and you have happily plunged yourself into that category headfirst. Nor do I need a link since I already know the details of the scam and have put them in my last post for your education.

The lal masjid operation was justified, I have already stated that. There is no parity between the two operations though. If one is going to dick measure on the basis of military operations which have no connection then there is plenty that the Pakistani armed forces can be beaten with, that is not the purpose of this thread though.

Other than rhetoric, ill formed sentences and loghorrhea you have presented nothing empirical or documented so far. When you do present a cogent rebuttal then we shall perhaps gauge the depth of your knowledge.

@Hyperion that tumor is acting up again.

offtopic!
just for your dam education, of the indian militry crouption of the recent past?
with wood or not with wood , still you cant trun your face?
equation remains same!
CBI clean chit to George Fernandes in coffin scam
CBI clean chit to George Fernandes in coffin scam - Rediff.com India News

August 22, 2009
The Central Bureau of Investigation has filed its chargesheet in the infamous 2002 'coffin scam', against four persons including two retired Army officials and one serving officer.
Official sources said the chargesheet was filed on August 19 in a CBI Special Court in New Delhi.
The CBI has not named the then Defence Minister George Fernandes, who had come under the scanner following allegations that poor quality aluminum caskets were bought from United States at 'exorbitant rates' after the Kargil war.
Sources said Fernandes -- during the questioning by the CBI -- could not remember anything that happened during the particular period.
The chargesheet was filed against then military attache in the Indian Embassy in the US, Major General (Retd) Arun Roy, Col (Retd) S K Malik, Col S D Singh and US based private person Victor Baiza of Buritrol and Baizarces, the vendor which supplied the casket.
"This case is related to purchase of aluminum caskets to carry dead body but it was subsequently rejected. In the meantime, Victor Baiza had already obtained the payment against Letter of Credit. This caused a loss of Rs 89 lakh to the government exchequer. Therefore, a chargesheet has been filed against four persons," CBI spokesperson Harsh Bhal said.
He said the charges have been framed under different section of IPC, including Section 120-B (criminal conspiracy), 420 IPC (cheating) and under the provisions of Prevention of Corruption Act for alleged abuse of official position for personal gains.
The coffin scam, which rocked the nation during the Kargil war when body bags were used to bring back bodies of soldiers killed during the conflict, had come under the scanner of Comptroller and Auditor General, which had found lot of flaws in the procurement of caskets.

The UPA government then referred a number of defence deals entered during the NDA regime to CBI on the basis of objections raised by the CAG.
At the height of controversy, Fernandes had given clean chit to the procurement process for purchasing of coffins for the soldiers killed during the Kargil war.

no he was nt gulity!
take that, with your dam mad love with english language!
yes you can be a good teacher, a good professor of languages or the mughal history?
but you never can be a soilder, which i was?
keep learning about india , keep knowing about! PDF & the phenomna called BATMANOW!
its not just, your dam languge test, we are having here?

on topic!
LAL MASJID & MUMBAI ATTACKS BOTH WERE COWARD ACTS, TO KILL INNOCENTS?
just comparing, the losses & the time it took to repond by security forces with thier counter terrorism methods in the 2 different terrorist incident, wasnt any shame full act? or wasnt directed to defame any country?
it was just for learning? for the next time? right!
instead it, brings more experince & knowledge for the future?
to fight the terror jointly?
but you, still are just another, indian on PDF right?

[

 

[Dillinger]

offtopic!
just for your dam education, of the indian militry crouption of the recent past?
with wood or not with wood , still you cant trun your face?
equation remains same!
CBI clean chit to George Fernandes in coffin scam
CBI clean chit to George Fernandes in coffin scam - Rediff.com India News

August 22, 2009
The Central Bureau of Investigation has filed its chargesheet in the infamous 2002 'coffin scam', against four persons including two retired Army officials and one serving officer.
Official sources said the chargesheet was filed on August 19 in a CBI Special Court in New Delhi.
The CBI has not named the then Defence Minister George Fernandes, who had come under the scanner following allegations that poor quality aluminum caskets were bought from United States at 'exorbitant rates' after the Kargil war.
Sources said Fernandes -- during the questioning by the CBI -- could not remember anything that happened during the particular period.
The chargesheet was filed against then military attache in the Indian Embassy in the US, Major General (Retd) Arun Roy, Col (Retd) S K Malik, Col S D Singh and US based private person Victor Baiza of Buritrol and Baizarces, the vendor which supplied the casket.
"This case is related to purchase of aluminum caskets to carry dead body but it was subsequently rejected. In the meantime, Victor Baiza had already obtained the payment against Letter of Credit. This caused a loss of Rs 89 lakh to the government exchequer. Therefore, a chargesheet has been filed against four persons," CBI spokesperson Harsh Bhal said.
He said the charges have been framed under different section of IPC, including Section 120-B (criminal conspiracy), 420 IPC (cheating) and under the provisions of Prevention of Corruption Act for alleged abuse of official position for personal gains.
The coffin scam, which rocked the nation during the Kargil war when body bags were used to bring back bodies of soldiers killed during the conflict, had come under the scanner of Comptroller and Auditor General, which had found lot of flaws in the procurement of caskets.

The UPA government then referred a number of defence deals entered during the NDA regime to CBI on the basis of objections raised by the CAG.
At the height of controversy, Fernandes had given clean chit to the procurement process for purchasing of coffins for the soldiers killed during the Kargil war.

no he was nt gulity!
take that, with your dam mad love with english language!
yes you can be a good teacher, a good professor of languages or the mughal history?
but you never can be a soilder, which i was?
keep learning about india , keep knowing about! PDF & the phenomna called BATMANOW!
its not just, your dam languge test, we are having here?

on topic!
LAL MASJID & MUMBAI ATTACKS BOTH WERE COWARD ACTS, TO KILL INNOCENTS?
just comparing, the losses & the time it took to repond by security forces with thier counter terrorism methods in the 2 different terrorist incident, wasnt any shame full act? or wasnt directed to defame any country?
it was just for learning? for the next time? right!
instead it, brings more experince & knowledge for the future?
to fight the terror jointly?
but you, still are just another, indian on PDF right?

[

AND that has what to do with the casualties being high or not? Any relation whatsoever? They bought overpriced coffins/caskets ergo the scam. If comprehension and cogency is so difficult to come by then no body can help you. And he was guilty, the CBI has no autonomy whatsoever, absent knowledge of the legal and jurisdiction related issues of the investigation agency in question you are woefully ill-equipped to reach a conclusion. Launching into deviations will not help your case, at least a well composed segue might have helped. The point remains, we brought back our jawaans, we gave them their last rights unlike the establishment in Pakistan which refused to accept the bodies of their brave jawaans.

What equation are you referring to? Our casualties are well documented and available on open source media. How does corruption correlate to Musharraf's poor grasp on military strategy and his ill conceived plan? Is there some denial of the 500 martyrs of the IA, there is not. Is there some denial that the frontal assaults in Kargil led to casualties, there is not. None of that detracts from the fact that Kargil was lost by the Pakistani army, with all posts recovered. The much hyped Pt. 17561 which the posters here cling to is not even on the Indian side of the LOC despite utterances to the contrary, something a man apparently learned in the history of the conflict would have known. If you had simply picked up an official map, a military one, perhaps an USATC Ni-43 map- you would have known that much.

@Oscar this is getting tiresome, trying to teach a person of his caliber how to collate facts and take them to their logical end is tedious and should not be required in the first place, akin to teaching a toddler how to simply breath. Repetitive posts with the same agenda being driven in again and then again sans even the understanding of the context.

 

[batmannow]

AND that has what to do with the casualties being high or not? Any relation whatsoever? They bought overpriced coffins/caskets ergo the scam. If comprehension and cogency is so difficult to come by then no body can help you. And he was guilty, the CBI has no autonomy whatsoever, absent knowledge of the legal and jurisdiction related issues of the investigation agency in question you are woefully ill-equipped to reach a conclusion. Launching into deviations will not help your case, at least a well composed segue might have helped. The point remains, we brought back our jawaans, we gave them their last rights unlike the establishment in Pakistan which refused to accept the bodies of their brave jawaans.

What equation are you referring to? Our casualties are well documented and available on open source media. How does corruption correlate to Musharraf's poor grasp on military strategy and his ill conceived plan? Is there some denial of the 500 martyrs of the IA, there is not. Is there some denial that the frontal assaults in Kargil led to casualties, there is not. None of that detracts from the fact that Kargil was lost by the Pakistani army, with all posts recovered. The much hyped Pt. 17561 which the posters here cling to is not even on the Indian side of the LOC despite utterances to the contrary, something a man apparently learned in the history of the conflict would have known. If you had simply picked up an official map, a military one, perhaps an USATC Ni-43 map- you would have known that much.

@Oscar this is getting tiresome, trying to teach a person of his caliber how to collate facts and take them to their logical end is tedious and should not be required in the first place, akin to teaching a toddler how to simply breath. Repetitive posts with the same agenda being driven in again and then again sans even the understanding of the context.

reported offtopic!
why the hell that scandle happened durring, kargill war?
why not before & after?
you are talking to a PAKARMY jawan, right now ?from that war?
i m still alive!
like me, there are more living in this world.......?
are you the official indian war historian, or even a CBI officail , to put your dam 2 cents?
you said george fernendis was guilty, no he wasnt?
what heppens when CBI gives anyone a clean chit in , any investigations in india?
& why the dam investigstion was needed ?
why it was done?
you think you, will put whatever the crap,you going to put against PAKARMY in here, just because they made youa think tanker ? & every one wouldbe affraid of you?
no you are nothing, jst cutting paste ,internet master try to pose himself, larger then life?
dont just make a sweeping statment , that IA brought every indian,s soilders body bck?
its nt, you been made, a think tanker, & you become exclusive, & every godam PDF member hve to listen your kind of , indian crap from the lost battle of kargill, no we dont?
if, your dam agenda , which is been allways defaming PAKARMY just about any angles, & every angle , it allways the same? de fame pak army!
well then be ready, to become a football on PDF with kicks from every where , cause its PDF!just allways remember, its not goddamed bharati rakshak mess? ok
dont complain it, dont try to paint IA the super fighting force of hell, we know it better thn , any student member, doing his studies & just fed up, with our system?
learn it, or you will be marked!
kids like you, just need to understand, PDF is just more thn a debeating club?

 

[Zibago]

how about aiding a coup ?? is that bad too

 

[Dillinger]

reported offtopic!
why the hell that scandle happened durring, kargill war?
why not before & after?
you are talking to a PAKARMY jawan, right now ?from that war?
i m still alive!
like me, there are more living in this world.......?
are you the official indian war historian, or even a CBI officail , to put your dam 2 cents?
you said george fernendis was guilty, no he wasnt?
what heppens when CBI gives anyone a clean chit in , any investigations in india?
& why the dam investigstion was needed ?
why it was done?
you think you, will put whatever the crap,you going to put against PAKARMY in here, just because they made youa think tanker ? & every one wouldbe affraid of you?
no you are nothing, jst cutting paste ,internet master try to pose himself, larger then life?
dont just make a sweeping statment , that IA brought every indian,s soilders body bck?
its nt, you been made, a think tanker, & you become exclusive, & every godam PDF member hve to listen your kind of , indian crap from the lost battle of kargill, no we dont?
if, your dam agenda , which is been allways defaming PAKARMY just about any angles, & every angle , it allways the same? de fame pak army!
well then be ready, to become a football on PDF with kicks from every where , cause its PDF!just allways remember, its not goddamed bharati rakshak mess? ok
dont complain it, dont try to paint IA the super fighting force of hell, we know it better thn , any student member, doing his studies & just fed up, with our system?
learn it, or you will be marked!
kids like you, just need to understand, PDF is just more thn a debeating club?

As I said, the loss of cogency is lamentable. The very reason I am a "tanker" is because I know what I am taking about. You can take your argument and start a debate with the USATC, I am sure they will accommodate your arguments. The objectives of Kargil were not met, Siachen is still under complete Indian control with the Saltoro ridgeline sporting the tri-color. I cannot be expected to educate you on a range of topics as vast as the intricacies of the Indian legal system and the topography of Dras AND the strategic underpinnings of the Kargil conflict. For an alleged defence forces personnel though your knowledge of the matters under consideration is severely lacking. By all means continue to be obdurate, it will not change the facts as they stand and you are of course always welcome to depend upon the maps even generated by the Survey Of Pakistan to validate my statements.

@batmannow As far as the topic of the thread is concerned I am on record having stated that Musharraf did the right thing in the Lal Masjid case and should never have been arrested for it.

 

[Dillinger]

@jaibi What do you think though? He was a dictator but he was not wrong when it came to the Lal Masjid operation? I know that @Secur agrees with me on that. On what basis are they trying him for that particular incident?

 

[HAIDER]

It feels Indians are so much in pain since Musharraf cases are slowly going down the drain. There buddy Nawaz has no time left either he saved the economy or listen India.....Kargil revenge through Nawaz govt...very sad.

 

[Secur]

@jaibi What do you think though? He was a dictator but he was not wrong when it came to the Lal Masjid operation? I know that @Secur agrees with me on that. On what basis are they trying him for that particular incident?

Surprisingly , the dictatorship has proven to be best for Pakistan at various times in history - leave the commander of the faithful here , works best in this part of South Asia , believe me . Nothing more than a political case it is , Dillinger . What crime is it , to kill the terrorists who had converted a religious place into a hideout and made bunkers and amassed weapons in there and tried to challenge the writ of the state and disrupt the lives of people and terrorize them , in an action sanctioned by the state itself ?

 

[jaibi]

Firstly, I find it weird that he was the dictator but had the most liberal legislations in the history of the nation. Anyways, he came to power due to the unsolved trioka in our constitution and extra-constitutional actions of the PML-N government: remember, you need to have a certain environment for a coup, it doesn't come out of the blue.

Now about LM, he had political legitimacy, if he didn't then so did not Ayub, Yahya and Zia, and they should be tried posthumously and their laws eradicated from Pakistan's legislation (Islamisation, anyone?). That's not happening, so why does Musharraf hold a special place? He acted as the President. At the time the constitution held this as a legal action. So what are we prosecuting him on? Army of civilian the LM guys were challenging the writ of the government and were at best criminals if not terrorists, and the Pak constitution has a clause of invoking military help in law enforcement.

This is just a power farce nothing more. It's stupid to prosecute him by people who're in office due to the NRO. People who say this would change things are being stupid.

@jaibi What do you think though? He was a dictator but he was not wrong when it came to the Lal Masjid operation? I know that @Secur agrees with me on that. On what basis are they trying him for that particular incident?

 

[Slav Defence]

Mr.Musharraf faced quite difficult situation at that time,the way he handled Mr.Bush is quite appreciating.According to BBC and CNN claims that 'Mr Musharraf is double crossing US' which means that he was trying all his level best to maintain the interests of Pakistan while tackling the situation of War on Terror and Operation Enduring Freedom.
If there was someone else such as PPP or PML-N,then I bet to say that they won't be able to even handle 1% of scenario as Mr.Musharraf did.I don't blame him if he got confused in case of selection of allies,either Taliban or US...Mr.Musharraf did what was best for Pakistan's interests at that time,he recognized the direction of force and moved along with it,to keep us safe.He tried to resist US dual game-plan of as much as he could,especially the way he tackled Lal-Masjid siege was on the best options any ruler can ever think of,giving Aziz brothers more time would have increased their strength.

 

[batmannow]

As I said, the loss of cogency is lamentable. The very reason I am a "tanker" is because I know what I am taking about. You can take your argument and start a debate with the USATC, I am sure they will accommodate your arguments. The objectives of Kargil were not met, Siachen is still under complete Indian control with the Saltoro ridgeline sporting the tri-color. I cannot be expected to educate you on a range of topics as vast as the intricacies of the Indian legal system and the topography of Dras AND the strategic underpinnings of the Kargil conflict. For an alleged defence forces personnel though your knowledge of the matters under consideration is severely lacking. By all means continue to be obdurate, it will not change the facts as they stand and you are of course always welcome to depend upon the maps even generated by the Survey Of Pakistan to validate my statements.

@batmannow As far as the topic of the thread is concerned I am on record having stated that Musharraf did the right thing in the Lal Masjid case and should never have been arrested for it.

offtopic,reported!
i hve painted red the lines above, no you dont know what you talking about!
cause siachen is not in total indian control?
just go to your famous16 , 18 Grenadiers ask them how many of thiers fellows, losted thier left & right eye balls by the snipper fire?
the time they tried to advance on tiger hill?
cause it was me!
count them in total come back , make a thread we, go for rock & roll, till thats not hapening forget that all crap, you were trying to impress me & PDF members?
you are not an ofgicial kargill historian? by any militry side which took, part in that great battle?
just stay on the topic, if you think we are ready to accept your(bharat rak shak) POV on kargill, no we dont!
& we never will!
now, be on topic! & remain on topic!
nothing more & nothing less?