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Musharraf 're-arrested' over Lal Masjid operation.

America reminds me, enhh..why do they have ni-43 maps of Kashmir in their military archives?

Oh well, no system can be perfect. One can only hope to reduce the quantum of issues that may arise. Musharraf did show some intelligence in foreign affairs though, even with us after the Kargil fiasco was done and over with, no?

Off course he did, only an idiot sees in black and white and tries to brand someone a complete dufus(although NS might have taken that vote for some of his actions taken under advice in his last tenure as PM). However, on a level of principle and morality Musharraf's rule was wrong.. perhaps better than Ayub Khan's.. but still essentially wrong. He violated his own oath, took decisions without any opposing voice or fear of repercussion for 9 years.. and lets not even go into his military leadership in which reportedly whole battalions were sent on charge of the light brigade type assaults against the Taliban by certain leaders with his approval.

The effectiveness of operations can be seen improving the more Musharraf handed over reigns of command to people like Kayani and others. The man was mediocre(even if better than NS or Zardari in many matters) and did not deserve his rank nor his leadership of the country. Because people like NS and Zardari can only get away with so many mistakes before someone catches them(like Musharraf) and stops them. But in Musharrafs case, he was judge, jury and executioner.. with the power to literally change historical records without anyone to question him or ask him why.

One only has to look at the accounts of truly deserving and decorated officers like ACdre Sajjad Haider or others to gauge how they saw military dictators and their accounts of their "patriotism".

What is the perspective of the next five years?
Nr 27 worlds economy for how long,its time to move up the ladder dont you think?
Is it going to happen in the future,you know there is the potential?

Its anybody's guess. But it is for sure that with the US going out of Afghanistan.. and the world economy still not out of recession as such yet.. thing wont fix themselves overnight. However, the current checks and balances(even if imbalanced due to a hyper responsive and irresponsible media) will ensure that this government does not repeat too many mistakes of the last one.
 
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General Sir Pervez Musharraf should be given a medal for his outstanding services in trying to contain the mulla menace, not jailed. :pissed:
 
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i dont need to argue about kargill, to any one as both are great gentlemens, but were never was the part of planing kargill?
PA s succses rate in kargill was certified & exposed, when indian defence minster dear george fernendus of that time was caught by a intersting scandle, which was about the over import of wood for cofins, for indian soilders killed by PA at kargill?
but i was the foot fighting force, the vry part which was butcherd just because of a coward PM, trying to inlarge him self?
yes the system is & was fake, since its begenings?
it was delibratidly done by ZAB, who thought by giving up the former pakistan to india, with pinned surrender of PA, he just burried the ghost?
then he went in with stupid master pice eye washer, which is the soul of every crouption & illegalities?
sorry MUSHARAF oath isnt under 73 constitution! thats another argument?
some other time, some other place?
our topic is rearrest of former president musharaf in LAL MASJID ops case, in which terrotist mullha & his terrorists died along with, patriotic SSg commandos, who just went in the mosque after the denial of surrender by the terrorists & thier leader?
dont trun & twist the topic, just prove your 3rd garde damocratic, biasd , gilberish mind?
just belive me when , i was writting those dam words, i was sad about you, yes my youth , after me?
blineded by the fake love of democracy?
with terrorists getting free offices, from our selfish politicians& our PA soilders getting shadat every day, just defending this country?
but bomb blasts hitting 4 provinces in same day?
what is going to happen, another FIR on PA,ITS OFFICERS, ITS SOILDERS , WHY THEY CHOSE TO DEFEND THIER COUNTRY FROM ITS ENEMIES?
its really getting over for your damocrazy, its days are numbered!
now its enough, of derailing of thread?
nothing from you on this regurd?

Oh I absolutely agree, lets head back to the topic and not waste time in defending a man you arent able to nor am I interested in. As for the Lal Masjid case, it was Musharraf having to deal with a furious SSG after their commander was killed. If he did not attack, his own value among them was lost.. another case of doing something for personal rather than national gain. The people at Lal Masjid were criminals, but there were much better ways of ending the process rather than using AP rounds and burning up everyone inside regardless of them holding a gun or not.


I happen to know how NS was **** scared of pressing the button. It was under the pressure of his colleagues he ended up authorizing detonation test. If you think Chaghi was dug up in his time, I am afraid your comprehension is incorrect. Chaghi was dug up long ago and sealed for use at appropriate time. The only credit which goes to NS is number of detonations - to ensure despite being nuclear capable Pakistan is left with no nuclear armament left. Do you think it needs six explosions to confirm nuclear detonation capability. This is where he submitted to Clinton. OK you want to do it, then expand it all.

Credit goes to Gen PM who rebuilt it gave it a proper command structure to be controlled responsibly and safe guard it.



I think @batmannow referred to his personal experience on kargil so nothing more is required. However, my comment on it is the one liner
It was an excellent military move and poorest political move. Those who think Kargil was an operation done just on the whims are somewhat incorrect, as no military operation is done just on whims, there is years and years of planning and continuous improvement to the plan, until executed.

Democracy is a buzz word which is used without by these politicians to fool people. A country has to be primed to sustain democracy, so long these so called opportunist (politicians) will keep themselves above law and harp the tunes of democracy, it will remain a democraZy.

And I claimed nowhere that he did Chagai... it is totally irrelevant to the question of ordering the detonation. Moreover, it is already stated in the post you quoted that NS was truly scared and beyond his wits trying to survive between a furious Clinton on the phone and furious advisers on the other. But at the end he took the decision for the best interest of Pakistan(wholly or quarter heartedly).

The latter part about democracy is the typical establishment purported concept of bloody civilians and hence does not seem to justify your assertion at all. Opportunistic people exist both in politics and in uniform, what is needed is a system that ensures that these opportunities are not exploited. If both Civil and Military institutions worked as advertised in the constitution, then neither will let opportunism go unpunished. And Democracy needs to run to iron out its kinks; when never allowed to run.. what do you expect?

In any case, Musharraf has to face the law like everyone else and it is to his own merit that he has chosen to go through the process. That alone serves as excellent eyewash for his past mistakes and perhaps gives him the humility to be a better civil servant if by chance he is allowed to contest n 2017/8 and takes a seat in parliament.
 
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Nawaz sharif should be hanged for putting the lives of 190 passengers in Musharraf's flight from Lanka in danger by refusing them permission to land.
Musharraf should have killed him in his first coup itself, Pakistan would have been rid of a huge pest.

God bless you Musharraf may you live a long and blessed life.
 
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Oh I absolutely agree, lets head back to the topic and not waste time in defending a man you arent able to nor am I interested in. As for the Lal Masjid case, it was Musharraf having to deal with a furious SSG after their commander was killed. If he did not attack, his own value among them was lost.. another case of doing something for personal rather than national gain. The people at Lal Masjid were criminals, but there were much better ways of ending the process rather than using AP rounds and burning up everyone inside regardless of them holding a gun or not.




And I claimed nowhere that he did Chagai... it is totally irrelevant to the question of ordering the detonation. Moreover, it is already stated in the post you quoted that NS was truly scared and beyond his wits trying to survive between a furious Clinton on the phone and furious advisers on the other. But at the end he took the decision for the best interest of Pakistan(wholly or quarter heartedly).

The latter part about democracy is the typical establishment purported concept of bloody civilians and hence does not seem to justify your assertion at all. Opportunistic people exist both in politics and in uniform, what is needed is a system that ensures that these opportunities are not exploited. If both Civil and Military institutions worked as advertised in the constitution, then neither will let opportunism go unpunished. And Democracy needs to run to iron out its kinks; when never allowed to run.. what do you expect?

In any case, Musharraf has to face the law like everyone else and it is to his own merit that he has chosen to go through the process. That alone serves as excellent eyewash for his past mistakes and perhaps gives him the humility to be a better civil servant if by chance he is allowed to contest n 2017/8 and takes a seat in parliament.

you are trying to defend a croupt, voilent, terrorist democracy to your heads out, not me defending a patriot?
cause he dont need anyone to defend him, he has angels?
well on the, topic is what could be the better ways after telling them through, every goddam ullema, in the country & evem tye imam e kaba?
i think they should hve invited you to hve negociations with mulana ghazi & with your better ways?
maybe a total surrender of pakistani state, right? with whole world watching & enemies waiting to say, PA cant do the job hence they need to move in & take out terrorism by any means, even carpet bombing by B52s, as they did in torabora, or still what they are doing in afghanistan & IRAQ?
let me tell you in simple, plain words ! you could be a good genious student, but you dont know nothing about terrorism, & countering it?
specially in pakistan?
its simple, you give them time & space they will more deadly?
take them out fast, the losses will be little?
if every nation starts finding, better way to deal with, terrorism i can bet you , this world become a copy to the hell, which you never thought about till yet?
what ever glibreish you hve put in your post SSG & about the son of gun Lieutenant Colonel Haroon Islam , who was one of our inspirations in kargill, sorry stop that, cause you dont know anything about pakarmy?
they aremtruly profesional peoples, they dont get get wakoo,s or paniced in any condition?
you can take the latest example, in sawa where the genrl, was become a shaheed, what you think peoples under his comand went nuts, & did preasurize the COAS?
sorry your knowledge just, not enough on the topic!
now, if you really hve great evidence, you may bring it to the courts , i can be there for you?
maybe your intell, is still better then CIA, or RAW?
what you say?
are you man enough, to present the proves
that Musharraf having to deal with a furious SSG after their commander was killed. If he did not attack, his own value among them was lost?
can you prove that to any court in pakistan? even in the world?
or its another of dear hamid mir, traitorious anti-army production?
 
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Really??
In one fell swoop, you are accusing people like ACdre Kaiser, AVM Shahid Latif, Gen Talat and others of being dishonest in their accounts. While generally these men are respected throughout their former services you state they are men of zero integrity and their word is of no value? What proof do you have to back this claim?

Because then as such, these statements are declared to be of poor intellectual value by your claims.



My inclination is that most of the Kargil victory hogwash is from the last bold sentence which defines the crucial drawback in Pakistani military officer integrity and quality. Hence, till Musharraf was in power they would clearly not risk the ire of the sole "lord of all that I see" and wait till he was no longer able to inflict them any harm that they spoke up. This makes sense as many dissenters during Zia's regime also did not reveal the true underpinnings of his corruption ridden rule until after he blew up. They are humans and have families to protect. From a world wide perspective, from secondary analysts and from these military men themselves.. Kargil was a brilliant tactical plan that turned out to be an unmitigated strategic disaster rivalled only by Operation Gibraltar.

offtopic reported!
sorry you are not militry historian, hired by PDF to describe pakarmy faults?
nor you are genious to undrrstand the different actions taken by, differnt commanders?
just be on topic?
your hve lost the argument, dont bring apples in it!
 
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offtopic reported!
sorry you are not militry historian, hired by PDF to describe pakarmy faults?
nor you are genious to undrrstand the different actions taken by, differnt commanders?
just be on topic?
your hve lost the argument, dont bring apples in it!

Yup.. I am all that. And no I dont generally like apples but lets stick to the topic . i.e the Murder Accused and the basis for the Trial.

Every person may have a different perspective of Kargil, had the operation not reversed, today story would have been very different. It was NS who admitted PA to be there and what we lost was during retrieval. Had not retreated, the other side was on its knees. Due to supply line cut off, only air lifting of food was costing them a fortune. In not a very long time a number of non-combat casualties would have rendered Siachin fully in control of PA.

That I agree with, different perspectives were present at all time. But here its a case of evidence to the contrary. After all, apart from Musharraf the other architects of the Kargil conflict are all silent. In either case, this has been discussed before and I dont want loadshedding knight over here to start weeping any further.

The question is, are Kargil-esque decisions the hallmark of Musharraf's tenure? Such as the Lal Masjid operation?
Hasty, ill planned and with severe repercussions for Pakistans stability and well being.

This lawsuit however, is not going to stand simply because the accused cannot be guilty of ordering an operation on behalf of that state against a person who was involved in breaking the law. The Mullah ji asked for it..
It would behove someone with more sense if they do want to pursue a case to ask for an inquiry into the operation and actions of the security forces and leadership provided that information has not been buried during Musharraf's tenure.
 
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Yup.. I am all that. And no I dont generally like apples but lets stick to the topic . i.e the Murder Accused and the basis for the Trial.



That I agree with, different perspectives were present at all time. But here its a case of evidence to the contrary. After all, apart from Musharraf the other architects of the Kargil conflict are all silent. In either case, this has been discussed before and I dont want loadshedding knight over here to start weeping any further.

The question is, are Kargil-esque decisions the hallmark of Musharraf's tenure? Such as the Lal Masjid operation?
Hasty, ill planned and with severe repercussions for Pakistans stability and well being.

This lawsuit however, is not going to stand simply because the accused cannot be guilty of ordering an operation on behalf of that state against a person who was involved in breaking the law. The Mullah ji asked for it..
It would behove someone with more sense if they do want to pursue a case to ask for an inquiry into the operation and actions of the security forces and leadership provided that information has not been buried during Musharraf's tenure.

no you arent designated to trun & twist pakistani history, just because of your goolish love to a aressted damocrazy in pakistan!

the Murder Accused and the basis for the Trial.
stick with that!
 
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no you arent designated to trun & twist pakistani history, just because of your goolish love to a aressted damocrazy in pakistan!

the Murder Accused and the basis for the Trial.
stick with that!

Neither is Musharraf.. or Ayub...or any other Ruler. And Ill do as I wish, you cant do a thing about it...We've already had long discussion on Kargil.. go check those posts out there.

Now , on the trial. Once he gets bail on this and security for him is removed. What will the Taliban(and other people) make of that opportunity?
Isn't it better than that the arrested democracy continuous to arrest him on one pretext or the other so to provide him security?
 
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lal masjid scene was all a terrorist act.....

So attacking it was right.
I dont blame mushy.
he did what was right!
 
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That I agree with, different perspectives were present at all time. But here its a case of evidence to the contrary. After all, apart from Musharraf the other architects of the Kargil conflict are all silent.
Sometimes silence is necessary to safeguard future plans. Mush has been pushed in talking otherwise he was also silent.

The question is, are Kargil-esque decisions the hallmark of Musharraf's tenure? Such as the Lal Masjid operation?
Hasty, ill planned and with severe repercussions for Pakistans stability and well being.
I will just say that the decision was not of Gen PM, he was against it till last; the decision was of the Gen responsible for the operation. In my opinion he was not wrong. Yes, there were certain incorrect steps taken (not in the ops), which led to so much of embarrassment for Mush. I prefer not divulging that here.

This lawsuit however, is not going to stand simply because the accused cannot be guilty of ordering an operation on behalf of that state against a person who was involved in breaking the law. The Mullah ji asked for it..

Very right, and he was dealt accordingly, though late.

It would behove someone with more sense if they do want to pursue a case to ask for an inquiry into the operation and actions of the security forces and leadership provided that information has not been buried during Musharraf's tenure.
They will not because a FAIR inquiry will clear up everything against Mushy. In that case how will everyone blame him for Lal Masjid. Otherwise, who has stopped exhuming the bodies to find out who all were killed there or ordering an inquiry. It has been more than 5 years Mush has relinquished power. If the trial actually takes place, SSG personnel taking part in the ops are the best witness, then there will be no denials.

Now , on the trial. Once he gets bail on this and security for him is removed. What will the Taliban(and other people) make of that opportunity?
Isn't it better than that the arrested democracy continuous to arrest him on one pretext or the other so to provide him security?
As he is not ready to leave the country. I think this what is happening.
 
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Neither is Musharraf.. or Ayub...or any other Ruler. And Ill do as I wish, you cant do a thing about it...We've already had long discussion on Kargil.. go check those posts out there.

Now , on the trial. Once he gets bail on this and security for him is removed. What will the Taliban(and other people) make of that opportunity?
Isn't it better than that the arrested democracy continuous to arrest him on one pretext or the other so to provide him security?

thats what he want, to get the security cordon goes off?
you think there are not enough retired SSG red caps to defend him with thier love?
again your knowledge about pakarmy is same to a pan farosh on the karachi streets?
its ok, he dies he dies?
thats the life, every commando lives?
but then just remember, no one will be safe or asking security from PA? right
all of the dam damocrates will be on thier own , infront of TTp?
lets rock & roll!
lets decide , if terrorists hve the right to bomb peoples for thier own agenda?
& the civillians to take up, arms against terrorits to defend themselves?
 
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