"Musharraf exemplifies a quality Indian politicians should emulate" - Karan Thapar

[SSGPA1]

Although I am not a big fan of BB and N.S but my point is any govt could have done that given it rules the country for 8 long years without any opposition and besides, JF-17, Augusta 90-B, the great road network in Balochistan all pre-date Musharraf. They were only completed in his time, were started in BB and NS's time.

All of tehse were strated pre-Musharraf BUT never progressed because all of these projects required investmenet from GoP - I give credit to Musharraf because he moved on war footing to achieve these projects - previous govts. were transferring money into Swiss accts but didn't have $500 million for the JF-17 project (Yes only $500 M) - Musharraf prioritize these projects!

bread become expensive but people had the money to buy that bread!

and who said that???.

May be you didn't get a chance to travel across Pakistan, when you talk about Pakistan, please consider people out of Faisalabad as Pakistanis too. Go to Gawader and talk to people there - Go to other parts of Pakistan and get truth from people there and not from GEO.

Dollar was trading in mid sixties ...

Do u belive that shaukat aziz did actually help pakistan??? one questio.n for you- why is he so reluctant to come back to pakistan and defend his economical policies??

Shaukat Aziz don't want to particiapte in politics therefore he is not going to say anything ... besides the acknowledgement by international markets of our financial figures is an evidenece in itself.

 

[Khajur]

This is the difference between Musharraf and an Indian poilitician ... because of the public stature, it is more important to answer the question.

We are talking about two completely different situations here.Its not unusual
to see a politician getting agitated when put in very uncomfortable situation and leaving in the middle of the interview.

I'm sure Musharraf would have done the same if his host had tried undermine or belittle his position.

And let me tell u that india today & guest at the conclave went out of their way not to offend Musharraf in any way and saw to it that he wasnt pushed beyond a point during the seemingly tough Q & A session.

 

[qsaark]

All of tehse were strated pre-Musharraf BUT never progressed because all of these projects required investmenet from GoP - I give credit to Musharraf because he moved on war footing to achieve these projects - previous govts. were transferring money into Swiss accts but didn't have $500 million for the JF-17 project (Yes only $500 M) - Musharraf prioritize these projects!

Please provide with the evidence. As per my knowledge, Pakistan had a total military expenditure of Rs 133,834 million (USD 3.16 billion @ USD 1 = Rs 42.4) in the year 1997-98 and Rs 145,000 million (USD 2.90 billion @ USD 1 = Rs 50.4) in the year 1998-99. This accounts for 4.7% (1997-98) and 4.4% (for 1998-99) of GDP. For both the fiscal years, the military expenditures accounted for 29% of the total budget. Now let’s see how much Musharraf Government spent on Military:

2003 = 4.60%; 2004 = 3.90%; 2005 = 4.90%; 2006 = 3.90%; 2007 = 3.20%; 2008 = 3.20% (of GDP).

So in fact, Pakistan Military was given more money to spend in the time of your arch enemy, NS. They might be sending billions in their Swiss accounts but your military was still getting its FULL share. So this is BS that they were not getting money to spend on JF-17 etc.

May be you didn't get a chance to travel across Pakistan, when you talk about Pakistan, please consider people out of Faisalabad as Pakistanis too. Go to Gawader and talk to people there - Go to other parts of Pakistan and get truth from people there and not from GEO.

The inflation rate is as high as 21 percent quite contrary to what GoP is telling you. When I left Pakistan in 2001, bread used to sell for Rs 1-2, now Rs 4-5 and higher in some other places. That alone shows that the bread is 400% more expensive. In the University, we used to buy a cup of tea for Rs 2.00 now it is Rs 6.00. If we look at the raise in the salaries, tell me in which department the salary has been quadrupled? You are telling us that a Pakistani who was making Rs 1,000 in 1999 is now making Rs 4,000? And if this is not true, how the purchasing power of an average Pakistani has gone up? To get the news, you don’t have to watch GEO, a short visit to the market is enough. And if you are like my Mom, who use to maintain a Journal of every single purchase in the month, you will quickly notice that everything has gone up by at least 30-40%. A house that could be bought for Rs 300,000 in 1999 is now selling for Rs 700-900,000. How on earth can you afford to buy a house at this price? While your salary has increased by a mere 5-15% a year?

Shaukat Aziz don't want to particiapte in politics therefore he is not going to say anything ... besides the acknowledgement by international markets of our financial figures is an evidenece in itself.

What acknowledgement? Shoukat Aziz has made the economy of Pakistan a consumer's economy. Have you bothered to look at the imbalance between your imports and exports? According to Transparency International, Pakistan 2008 Corruption Perceptions Index Score is 2.5. Out of 180 countries, it is ranked as the 46th most corrupt country in the world.
In 1998 Pakistan and India in CPI ranked as 71 and 66 respectively out of 85 Countries surveyed, with Score of 2.7 and 2.9, and in 2008 Pakistan and India are ranked 134 and 85 out of 180 Countries, with Score of 2.5 and 3.6. The difference in corruption ranking between the two countries has increased from 5 in 1998 to 49 in 2008. The present Economic status of the two countries confirms that the Economic Growth is inversely proportional to Corruption. In 1998 Pakistan & India FE reserves were US$ 1.60 Billion and US $ 26 Billion, and in 2008 they are US $ 9.10 Billion and US $ 237 Billion. In last ten years the gap in India & Pakistan FE Reserves increased, from 16 times in 1998 to 26 times in 2008. In 1998 Pakistan trade deficit was US $ 3.20billion,, whereas in only first two months of July-August 2008, trade deficit is US $ 3.52 billion.

 

[SSGPA1]

Please provide with the evidence. ... only first two months of July-August 2008, trade deficit is US $ 3.52 billion.

Here you go:

Pak Economy in 1999 was: $ 75 billion (Source)
Pak Economy in 2007 is: $ 160 billion (Source) and (Source)
Pak Economy in 2008 is: $ 170 billion (Source)

GDP Purchasing Power Parity (PPP) in 1999: $ 270 billion (Source)
GDP Purchasing Power Parity (PPP) in 2007: $ 475.5 billion (Source)
GDP Purchasing Power Parity (PPP) in 2008: $ 504.3 billion (Source)

GDP per Capita Income in 1999: $ 450 (Source)
GDP per Capita Income in 2007: $ 926 (Source)

GDP per Capita Income in 2008: $1085 (Source)

Pak revenue collection 1999: Rs. 305 billion (Source)
Pak revenue collection 2007: Rs. 708 billion (Source) and (Source)
Pak revenue collection 2008: Rs. 990 billion (Source)

Pak Foreign reserves in 1999: $ 1.96 billion (Source)
Pak Foreign reserves in 2007: $ 16.4 billion (Source) and (Source)
Pak Foreign reserves in 2008: $ 8.89 billion (Source)

Pak Exports in 1999: $ 8 billion (Source)
Pak Exports in 2007: $ 18.5 billion (Source)

Textile Exports in 1999: $ 5.5 billion
Textile Exports in 2007: $ 11.2 billion (Source)

KHI stock exchange 1999: $ 5 billion at 700 points
KHI stock exchange 2007: $ 75 billion at 14,000 points (Source)
KHI stock exchange 2008: $ 46 billion at 9,300 points (Source)
KHI stock exchange 2009: $ 20 billion at 4,972 points (Source)

Foreign Investment in 1999: $ 301 million (Source)
Foreign Investment in 2007: $ 8.4 billion (Source)

Debt servicing 1999: 65% of GDP (Source) and (Source)
Debt servicing 2007: 28% of GDP (Source) and (Source)
Debt servicing 2008: 27% of GDP (Source)

Poverty level in 1999: 34% (Source) and (Source)
Poverty level in 2007: 24% (Source) and (Source)

Literacy rate in 1999: 45% (Source)
Literacy rate in 2007: 53% (Source)

Pak Development programs 1999: Rs. 80 billion (Source)
Pak Development programs 2007: Rs. 520 billion (Source)
Pak Development programs 2008: Rs. 549.7 billion (Source)

You can find more info and sources of the info at the link below:

Economic Comparison 1999 - 2007 and beyond Our leader - Musharraf

 

[qsaark]

I have seen these figures. These figures carry little if any value. Statistics are really funny; I use them when I publish my work so I know how they work. As Mark Twain has said "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics." A majority of these figures are based on 'average', 'mean' and 'median'.

There are two people. One earns Rs 12,000/year @ Rs 1000/month. Another person earns Rs 120,000/year @ Rs 10,000. The average of the two is 12,000 + 120,000/2 = 66,000/year. Now this tells that a set of population (comprised of the two in this case) earns Rs 5,500/month. Which is gross over-estimation for the poor fellow who is only earning Rs 1,000/month and a gross under-estimation for a person who is earning Rs 12,000/month. Now for the poor person, it only looks like an over-estimation by 5.5 fold, in reality it is a cruel joke.

I would gladly buy these figures if they had represented the facts on the ground. If the situation is so rosy (from the figures you provided) why the GoP is slashing the so called non-developmental as well as defense expenditures? Why the coffers are not being used to buy electricity from the Independent Power Producers (IPPs)? Why the WB and IMF is asking GoP to withdraw subsidies? Why the GoP is asked to enlarge its tax base? Why the production rate of JF-17 is slashed to fewer planes/year? There are numerous questions that can’t be answered because the figures you have provided are not right.

 

[SSGPA1]

represented the facts on the ground. If the situation is so rosy (from the figures you provided) why the GoP is slashing the so called non-developmental as well as defense expenditures? Why the coffers are not being used to buy electricity from the Independent Power Producers (IPPs)? Why the WB and IMF is asking GoP to withdraw subsidies? Why the GoP is asked to enlarge its tax base? Why the production rate of JF-17 is slashed to fewer planes/year? There are numerous questions that can’t be answered because the figures you have provided are not right.

n case you ahve not noticed, there is a global recession which has effected Pakistan as well.

On top of that, thanks to NS for creating a political turmoil in Pakistan and thanks to the reputation of Zardari which has turned investors away ... One should present these questions to Zardari and company who couldn't manage the situation ...

Why the GoP is asked to enlarge its tax base?

Musharraf regime worked on this initiative and there were many improvements.

Don't just blindly hate, dislike or oppose someone, at this point you can't simply see anything beyond your dislikeness.

 

[qsaark]

Don't just blindly hate, dislike or oppose someone, at this point you can't simply see anything beyond your dislikeness.

First of all, I don’t hate people. I may dislike them but I never hate them. You might not believe it but in 1988, when General Zia's plane had crashed, I was 14 years old. I was mature enough, but I had cried a lot. I still respect him for many good things he did, and above all, for he was an honest and pious person. But when I look at the consequences of some of his fateful decisions, I really get upset. Similarly, I have absolutely no grudges against Musharraf, but he made some decisions that really upset not only me but a majority of people, even those who hate the current breed of politicians.

 

[SSGPA1]

First of all, I don’t hate people. I may dislike them but I never hate them. You might not believe it but in 1988, when General Zia's plane had crashed, I was 14 years old. I was mature enough, but I had cried a lot. I still respect him for many good things he did, and above all, for he was an honest and pious person. But when I look at the consequences of some of his fateful decisions, I really get upset. Similarly, I have absolutely no grudges against Musharraf, but he made some decisions that really upset not only me but a majority of people, even those who hate the current breed of politicians.

I was sad on Zia's death too and I still think he did his best for the people of Pakistan. I hold the same for Musharraf as well, we have to see the circumstances these guys have to come and lead the nation.

 

[Bane Blade]

I was sad on Zia's death too and I still think he did his best for the people of Pakistan. I hold the same for Musharraf as well, we have to see the circumstances these guys have to come and lead the nation.

Yes and in my opinion their rule was cruel in ways though they did complete a lot of projects for some reason everytime they came to power USA doubled our aid and improved the quality of life we had which at that time and I feel that rather than develop as a nation our self we have started relying on the dictating leaders and foreign aid far too much if these ways don't change we are headed for trouble only Musharraf can be a very charming talker and a very good leader but his presence is a long time loss for us.

 

[Contrarian]

In 1998 Pakistan & India FE reserves were US$ 1.60 Billion and US $ 26 Billion, and in 2008 they are US $ 9.10 Billion and US $ 237 Billion. In last ten years the gap in India & Pakistan FE Reserves increased, from 16 times in 1998 to 26 times in 2008.

That is a wrong way of looking at it IMO. Pakistan's GDP increased by 9 times during that decade. And India's GDP ALSO increased by 9 times. So its same. India just had a larger base in 1998, so the gap is looking wider now.

EDIT: Sorry, Pakistan's GDP increased 6 times, not 9. I calculated it in a hurry

 

[wtf]

That is a wrong way of looking at it IMO. Pakistan's GDP increased by 9 times during that decade. And India's GDP ALSO increased by 9 times. So its same. India just had a larger base in 1998, so the gap is looking wider now.

EDIT: Sorry, Pakistan's GDP increased 6 times, not 9. I calculated it in a hurry

Actually your math illustrates an even better point. Up until Manmohan Singh's economic reforms, the per capita GDP of India was actually smaller than that of Pakistan. Pakistan kept pace, until their governments started falling and military took over. Musharraf did manage to put the economy back on rails, but it did not have much steam. Now India is ahead on a per Capita basis and on a rich-poor divide basis. It is also growing faster.

Shows that just having an open democracy may have much more to do with economic development than any policy it implements (India and Pak govt. policy on imports/exports/taxes etc. are not much different).

 

[Bane Blade]

Shows that just having an open democracy may have much more to do with economic development

Alot has to do with the fact as to who are your allies and who are not India when pursuing its nuclear program remained to a certain extent friendly with the soviets whilst Pakistan it was the US and where India was helped in the developement Pakistan had to face very tough economic sanctions however good an orator Musharraf may have been our nation has lost its own voice.

 

[wtf]

Alot has to do with the fact as to who are your allies and who are not India when pursuing its nuclear program remained to a certain extent friendly with the soviets whilst Pakistan it was the US and where India was helped in the developement Pakistan had to face very tough economic sanctions however good an orator Musharraf may have been our nation has lost its own voice.

I wouldn't be so sure.. India hast not gotten any significant foreign aid for a while now. World Bank does not work in India anymore and the govt. will not borrow from IMF.
Pakistan has gotten US Aid, is the biggest borrower from IMF and gets help from China and Saudi.

India and Pakistan faced the same sanctions after the nuclear test, but that had no effect on either economy - it hurt only the military. Did Pakistan face any other economic sanctions ? (I am not an expert of Pakistan economy, just learned about the story from Pakistani Business men/ academics I met in USA)

I am sure that allies are important for military and for things like that, but I don't think allies are all that important when it comes to the economy. I think Capitalism and Democracy on the other hand is underrated.

 

[Bane Blade]

I wouldn't be so sure.. India hast not gotten any significant foreign aid for a while now. World Bank does not work in India anymore and the govt. will not borrow from IMF.
Pakistan has gotten US Aid, is the biggest borrower from IMF and gets help from China and Saudi.

India and Pakistan faced the same sanctions after the nuclear test, but that had no effect on either economy - it hurt only the military. Did Pakistan face any other economic sanctions ? (I am not an expert of Pakistan economy, just learned about the story from Pakistani Business men/ academics I met in USA)

I am sure that allies are important for military and for things like that, but I don't think allies are all that important when it comes to the economy. I think Capitalism and Democracy on the other hand is underrated.

During Nawaz's reign Pakistan faced tougher sanctions compared to India reason being we were still recieving aid on the open allowance of Afghan Migrants into our country and that was stopped as well as some other things that were specifically related to Pakistan and second thing India did get quite a bit of growth from the vastness of its size and the diversity it could produce another sector hit was the power sector in Pakistan sanctions were imposed on various imports due to US pressure that wasn't placed on Pakistan another thing as well is the fact that India can't be pressurized the way Pakistan can because we were importing US defence tech whilst I believe Indians were able to get Russian defence systems as well.

 

[SSGPA1]

Bane Blade, You are absolutely right. I may add that this was always the plan of US to have a strong India. On hand they put sanctions on Pakistan and on the other hand they made India the hub for IT outsourcing.