Musharraf blames captured troops - 3 Excecuted, 30 released

[Awaaz]

Well sending the army in to tribal areas was a bad idea, army needs to learn that it cant dictate its authoruty over fata areas as it does undemocratically over rest of the country.

Captured soldiers didint matter how brave and trained they are or were, dont stand a chance against the bravery of the pushtoon people who for centuries have fought agressors and sent them back with tail between their legs.

Time for pakistani army to learn that as well, how can the goverment ask for cooperation of waziri people and pushtoon clans when it shows agressions and kills pushtoon people.

Most pathans are proud pakistanis but before that they are proud pathans and loyalties are with fellow pushtoons and not some butt sahib from lahore.

I dont agree with any suicide bombings and terrorism, but what has the federal goverment done to win hearts and minds of local pepole, what facilities and regenartion plans have they come up with. What have they done to eliminate poverty and illiteracy, hunger, disease. Nothing at all is the answer yet expects those people to be loyal citizen, well now that is asking too much.

What the local people dont want is taliban in their land, but nor do they want a dictator goverment supported by a shameless army.

 

[Awaaz]

This word will be understood by my pushtoon brothers and balouchs. AWAARA no matter what the goverment does we will always be Awaara in mind and soul. Growing up as proud pakistani whose relatives laid down their lives for the land of pakistan, thats been riddled with corruption from day one and now if that wasnt enough murdering its own citizen another chapter.

 

[Awesome]

This word will be understood by my pushtoon brothers and balouchs. AWAARA no matter what the goverment does we will always be Awaara in mind and soul. Growing up as proud pakistani whose relatives laid down their lives for the land of pakistan, thats been riddled with corruption from day one and now if that wasnt enough murdering its own citizen another chapter.

We have all had people who laid down their lives, their earnings and their future for Pakistan. Many times we have been cheated out of getting ample returns.

Being "Awaara" (synonym for Rebellious) won't help change that thing. Rather participate in the Pakistani politics and fight the system using the system. The PA is not bombing away the tribals because it needs some target practice or has some personal problem with the tribes. It's simple, they are militants, they are carrying guns, they are killing people. The police will always shoot the criminal.

In the tribal areas, there are too many of these criminals and the PA HAVE to shoot them. Either you shoot them, or move out of the way while the Pak Army shoots them.

It would be very sad if you equate the good Pakistani Pathans and Pashtuns with Al Qaeda and Taliban.

 

[dabong1]

"Losing morale" theory is only perpetrated by people hoping to see Musharraf deposed by the Army itself.

In recent months the amount of soldiers that surrendered/captured to the tribals/taliban as been in the hundreds....."Losing morale"

The people that have tried to kill mushy where from the army.

 

[dabong1]

Being "Awaara" (synonym for Rebellious) won't help change that thing. Rather participate in the Pakistani politics and fight the system using the system..

This "system" your talking about,is it the one where the people of pakistan voted mushy into power?

The PA is not bombing away the tribals because it needs some target practice or has some personal problem with the tribes. It's simple, they are militants, they are carrying guns, they are killing people. The police will always shoot the criminal...

How come there was no problem before the US said it was a problem and forced mushy to send the army.

In the tribal areas, there are too many of these criminals and the PA HAVE to shoot them. Either you shoot them, or move out of the way while the Pak Army shoots them.

I think theres a problem with "move out of the way while the Pak Army shoots"......i dont think the tribesman understand.
I think they understand "you come onto my land and try shooting or forcing me i will shoot you back".

It would be very sad if you equate the good Pakistani Pathans and Pashtuns with Al Qaeda and Taliban.

What would be really sad is the way the west equates all muslims with terrorist or the way some people try to equate tribesman fighting mushy being members of al qaeda.

 

[Awesome]

In recent months the amount of soldiers that surrendered/captured to the tribals/taliban as been in the hundreds....."Losing morale"

The people that have tried to kill mushy where from the army.

Most people have been captured from outposts which are ill-equipped-defended-connected.

People are not willingly surrendering because they have switched sides, they are being pointed with guns.

 

[Cheetah786]

In recent months the amount of soldiers that surrendered/captured to the tribals/taliban as been in the hundreds....."Losing morale"

The people that have tried to kill mushy where from the army.

Army was filled with taliban sympatyizers if they are leaving or surrendering to enemies of pakistan quite frankly pakistan is better of without that kind of perosnals.
They obviously werent there to protect pakistan were they now.as soon as they had to chose between protecting pakistan or her enemies they chose the enemy.

Hey dabong1 here is your Brothers gift to people celebrating Eid.
At least seven people have been killed and 29 wounded in a suicide bomb attack in Afghanistan during the Muslim holiday of Eid al-Fitr.
The attack took place in Spin Boldak in the southern province of Kandahar as Hamid Karzai, Afghanistan's president, visited the provincial capital 100 km away.
The bomber, who was riding a motorcycle, detonated his explosives in a crowded shopping area, Sayed Aqa Safed, Kandahar province police chief, said.
"Five civilians and two policemen were killed… the suicide attacker was torn into pieces," Safed said.
The target of Saturday's attack appeared to have been policemen aboard two pick-up trucks parked in the street.
There was no immediate claim of responsibility for the incident but Taliban fighters have increased suicide attacks in recent months.
The Taliban have waged an often violent campaign against Afghanistan's government and Nato forces since they were driven from power in late 2001.

Al Jazeera English - News - Deaths In Afghan Suicide Blast<------link

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

This is what The News has to say:

8 kidnapped Army officers to face music on release
Major penalty of dismissal from service may be awarded

By Rauf Klasra

ISLAMABAD: Eight military officers including one lieutenant colonel, who were kidnapped by the tribal Taliban along with 240 other military men in August this year, will be facing immediate proceedings of court martial in a military court when freed.

Scandalous inside details of their capture have finally started unfolding as these military men did not fire a single shot while being kidnapped by the militants in the South Waziristan Agency.

This would be for the first time that the eight officers would be produced before a military court on release by the militants ever since the army launched its action in the tribal areas a couple of years back to fight &#8220;extremists&#8221; and &#8220;terrorists&#8221;.

The sources said only two officers of the regiment, which was taken hostage by the Taliban, would be spared as they were on leave. Otherwise, the rest of the officers who have been nicknamed as &#8220;chicken-hearted&#8221; will be facing serious penalties on their freedom.

A lieutenant colonel, who was actually commanding the 240 jawans and reportedly ordered them to lay down their arms before the Taliban to save his own life after a gun was placed on his head, would face the maximum penalty.


A top source claimed that these army officers are facing major penalty of dismissal from service on charges of bringing the Pakistan Army into disrepute as not a single shot was fired by them to resist the armed captors. The source claimed that these officers have actually been dismissed from their services and now simply a formality has been left to complete the process through the court martial on their return.

The source said that one of the major causes in showing disinterest in their release by the GHQ, by applying delaying tactics, was serious annoyance of the top military brass over the shameful manner in which they all simply allowed themselves to be captured without putting any resistance. These sources said by showing complete disinterest in their release for the last three months, these officers and Jawans are being given a loud and angry message by the top military brass that they had done something which was not easy to be ignored and they too should suffer some pain and misery at the hands of their captors.

&#8220;This is a clear message to these officers and Jawans that they are no more required to serve in the Pakistan Army as they did not prove themselves soldiers&#8221;.

Sources said even President General Pervez Musharraf could not stop himself from expressing his serious disappointment and anger in his interview with BBC the other day. Musharraf is said to have told the foreign media that the kidnapped army men &#8220;acted unprofessionally&#8221; which showed the level of frustration and anger among the top military brass against these officers and their Jawans.

Sources said these officers were also facing serious charges for setting a bad precedent in the history of Pakistan Army when they &#8216;surrendered&#8217; before the civilian fighters within the borders of their own country and made the institution of army a laughing stock in the eyes of the world.


When contacted by The News, Director General ISPR Major General Waheed Arshad confirmed that the eight officers among others would face an inquiry on their return, before deciding their fate. General Arshad said an inquiry would definitely be held into the matter to determine the real facts. He said there is a proper mechanism within the military to determine the facts of such serious issues and award punishment to those found guilty. Pakistan Army is a professional institution and a comprehensive probe would be undertaken, he said.

When asked what kind of punishment would be given to these army men for allegedly surrendering to the Taliban elements in the tribal areas, General Arshad replied; &#8220;First, please correct yourself. This was not surrender before Taliban elements&#8221;.

When asked whether these officers would face proceedings under a court martial, General Arshad said a full-fledged inquiry would be conducted into the whole issue and this was only possible once they returned.

When asked whether these officers had been dismissed from service and now they would be formally proceeded against in the military court, General Arshad replied that he could not say anything at this stage.

Meanwhile, sources claimed that the unfolding details of the capture of these army men have shocked the top military brass. According to information available with The News, no one was ready to believe in the manner in which these military officers, along with 240 army men, were simply trapped and captured by ordinary fighters.

According to initial investigations into the incident, when the military convoy under the command of a lieutenant colonel reached a mountainous area where the road was blocked, these officers were approached by three people who offered them to clear the road. These people even arranged some chairs for the military officers and they all sat there waiting for clearance of the road.

Sources said at one stage these three agents of the Taliban told these army officers that it might not be possible to clear the road unless they bring some people from the adjacent village to help them remove the obstacles. Upon this, these officers agreed and asked them to bring some manual support from the adjacent village. These three men returned with dozens of villagers who were wearing shawls to hide their weapons.

These military officers sitting quite comfortably on the chairs, with their guns allegedly lying on the grounds, had no idea what was about to unfold. The rest of the 240 military men too were sitting in their vehicles, waiting for these villagers to do some tricks and clear the road. When the Taliban approached these officers on the pretext of knowing what had actually happened, some of them simply pulled out their guns at these &#8220;relaxing officers&#8221; and told them to order their subordinates to surrender.

The officer leading the whole military convoy, when pushed with the gun, simply asked his 240 military men to drop their guns. These Taliban did not waste time in collecting the dropped weapons of the army men and took all of them into their custody after what the report called &#8220;a humiliating surrender&#8221;.

Sources said the news of capture of such a large number of army men by civilian fighters had a very negative impact on the mindset and approach of the rest of the officers and military officers serving in the tribal areas. That is why now strict punishment would be awarded to these army officers and Jawans for bringing the military into disrepute as an institution. Their act also boosted the morale of the Taliban fighting the Pakistan Army in the tribal areas.

8 kidnapped Army officers to face music on release

I think Musharraf is right in what he has done.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Only an inquiry after their return can establish what exactly happened.

Trust the Media to pronounce judgment before the trial.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Only an inquiry after their return can establish what exactly happened.

Trust the Media to pronounce judgment before the trial.

I agree the media goes overboard.

What is the political leaning of this paper, if indeed there is one!

But if Musharraf is upset, then things are really not quite in order. This is more so, since the way the whole episode has happened wherein not a shot was fired is too odd a thing to happen or believe.

Another news report:

BBC NEWS | South Asia | Venturing into the Taleban's backyard

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi Webby,

Why can't I access this link on the website.

Fatman----your post told me how incompetent a pakistani millitary officer has become. Sir, it is really not very bright for a millitary officer to say that we have not been trained to fight muslims. So, my question is that who are they trained to fight.

It really is shocking what you stated. It truly is beyond belief----I believe that it is high time that the pakistani milltary officers woke up from their slumber party.

Now I do understand why the americans are saying what they are saying. The americans truly have genuine concerns about the performance about my millitary and I was having a hard time pin pointing----I could not believe and could not comprehend that just because there is a cease fire---the commanding officer would let his guard down---250 army men could not clear a road and needed the help of some villagers-----it gets from worst to disgusting.

Fatman---if this is what the army training has become and this is what the product is of the officers cadre, and if this is what the mindset of a Lt Col of the pakistani army is---I don't have too much hope.

 

[fatman17]

mastankhan - i was stating what i feel in a honest manner - the basic duty of the PA is to defend Pakistan from outside agression. this has mainly been on the Kashmir CFL and the international border with india. we have to admit that we are not very proficient in counter-insurgency. just look at our history. now this dosnt mean that the PA has suddenly become incompetent (bcuz of one isolated incident). PA history is replete with stories of bravery and heroics under tremendous odds against them. my main aim was to suggest that we need to change our training to include counter-insurgency. it cant be left up to the SSG to do this kind of work. it has to be part of the traning regime of the infantry.
my apologies if i have stepped on some nerves!

 

[Awaaz]

We have all had people who laid down their lives, their earnings and their future for Pakistan. Many times we have been cheated out of getting ample returns.

Being "Awaara" (synonym for Rebellious) won't help change that thing. Rather participate in the Pakistani politics and fight the system using the system. The PA is not bombing away the tribals because it needs some target practice or has some personal problem with the tribes. It's simple, they are militants, they are carrying guns, they are killing people. The police will always shoot the criminal.

In the tribal areas, there are too many of these criminals and the PA HAVE to shoot them. Either you shoot them, or move out of the way while the Pak Army shoots them.

It would be very sad if you equate the good Pakistani Pathans and Pashtuns with Al Qaeda and Taliban.

You speak utter bull, why was there never a problem before in our history where tribal areas rose against the federal goverment? Why was there no killing of soldiers before? why were people in harmony then and not now? I tell you why because before the goverment didint push its dictatorship law against fata, now it has started to do that and this has caused problems. Arms in fata is part of the culture rememebr guns dont kill people kill people. There is a revelution starting fata and hopefully it will spread in to rest of sarhad and people will awake to the fact the biggest enemey we have is not disease or hunger but the military and federal goverment.

Majority of pushtton people in fata or outside it reject terrorism and extremism, because we dont believe in that, we value everyones life and beliefs and culture, but the pak military has made fata a scapegoat for its own evil deeds.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi Fatman,

Sir, you are not stepping on any nerves. Now that we know each other, we can discuss things with an open mind.

Indeed the training of PA has one mind set, but after the first skirmish with the insurgents that took place 5 years ago and the first captives who killed the pak army soldiers, from that moment onwards, the rules of engagement and the level of the playing field had changed drastically. Which means that on the scale of 1 through 5, where 5 is the deadliest, any contact with these tribals would instantly put you on a level 4 threat readiness. This does not mean that you start spraying indiscriminate fire against the opponent, but taking all measures to keep yourself in a position of strength. This is a consciencious and a pro-active approach-----and any commanding officer does not need the approval of the GHQ to follow through on it.

If my GHQ has a problem with a LT COL grade oficer to make that kind of a decision, then I believe that armies top brass has some serious management problems.

Now coming down to the present issue, as far as the help was offered, chairs to sit down and offering to go back and get extra help, that should have been accepted-----and anybody with the intellect level above an idiot----ie, any LT COL in any army of the world would have instanly smelled a dead 'mouse' and set up a non threatening parameter and a non visible trap for the labour coming to help them---come on guys---what kind of millitary is this------where soldiers are too good to clear up the road block-------I mean to say----" A ROAD BLOCK "what does that mean to a moving convoy---anywhere in the world---"AMBUSH" written all over it. Maybe I have read too much of combat fiction and war stories----maybe pakistani millitary needs to read fiction as well---this is addressed to BOOTA MASIH on PAKDEF.INFO.

Now on top of that, these tribals are giving you an oppurtunity to entrap them and you have the setup to ensnare them and make out an example out of the scenario. The question again comes up---why was this oppurtunity missed, the answer to that is a lack of mental readiness and preparedness. That means when oppurtunity met the moment, the moment was not trained and prepared to take advantage of the situation. And why it was not ready----either it was not trained---forgot about the training---did not give a da mn about the traing---was arrogant and thought himself to be above accepting training and directives from the trainers----was under the influence alcohol / drugs---and a whole list of other things.

I will say this much---I am shocked.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

You speak utter bull, why was there never a problem before in our history where tribal areas rose against the federal goverment? Why was there no killing of soldiers before? why were people in harmony then and not now? I tell you why because before the goverment didint push its dictatorship law against fata, now it has started to do that and this has caused problems. Arms in fata is part of the culture rememebr guns dont kill people kill people. There is a revelution starting fata and hopefully it will spread in to rest of sarhad and people will awake to the fact the biggest enemey we have is not disease or hunger but the military and federal goverment.

What is this "dictatorship law" that the government is "pushing on FATA"?

Who is blowing up businesses, beheading people on the suspicion of being "spies", "prostitutes" or "criminals"? Are these people getting a "fair trial" before being "punished"? Could you provide any facts to substantiate their "fair trials"? Who is sending "fighters" into a neighboring sovereign state to attack its government, civilians and soldiers? Which area has become the haven for drugs, illegal arms and criminals (even before the U.S invasion of Afghanistan)?

What was the status of development in the FATA before the U.S invasion and Army? What were the benefits of this this "wonderful system" you claim exists there?