Musharraf being targeted because he is 'Muhajir': MQM chief

[airmarshal]

Well keep in mind that Musharraf was picked to be the CoAS because he had no constituency in the Army given his ethnic background. This is a well known fact within the Army.

I have said this before and will say it again, had this net been broader, including the holier than all of us Chaudhry Iftikhar and party, the ethnic argument would have been completely irrelevant. Now with another typically hasty and idiotic knee jerk policy, the sort that Nawaz Sharif is well known for, we are neither here or there.

Constituency? Are you serious? You are implying its a Punjabi army? Thats a typical MQM point of view.

Aslam Beg also did not have a 'constituency' yet he was a powerful Army chief. Army is Pakistan's. Its not any ethnic group to which it belongs. It has amply demonstrated it by electing Army chiefs from different backgrounds.

If army was biased against Musharraf, he wouldn't have reached major general or lt. general position.I m disappointed in the way people think!

 

[HRK]

The ethnic cleansing of the Punjabis Muslims happened during partition in 1947. The quota system was introduced in 1948, and the overwhelming majority who migrated to Pakistan from India after the introduction of this system was Urdu speaking from northern Indian and Hyderabad. I hope my point is clear now.

so by your logic migrant from east Punjab do not fall under the category of 'immigrants from India' ..... dear look you want a debate over the issue but don't want to have a dedicated thread ...... Why are you ignoring the fact that that situation remained only for one year in 1949 policy changed as following

Bengal 40%
Punjab 23%
All Other provinces [ Sindh,Balochistan and NWFP ]and Princely States 15%
Merit 20%
Karachi (Capital city) 2%

from 80% quota seats it was decided to give 15% quota for immigrants of Kashmir

pls fell free to show me the ethnic basis in this formula ...... or in other words kindly make all out effort to portray 'Founding Fathers' as ethnic / racist fascist ......

look we have exchanged number of posts on this issue ...... and you said you don't want to have a dedicated thread pls keep in mind we have not discussed the provincial quota yet .......

Regards,

 

[Secur]

When the heck did you write this & why wasn't I alerted that you'd written this ?

Itnaa lambaa dukhraaa parhneiii ka mereiii paassss time nahin haiii !

So write a summary for me !

Oh bhai there is no inequality of treatment being meted out here & the reason why ANP's Statement or PPP's Statement on breaking the country apart doesn't illicit the same kind of reaction because the Punjabi is involved & because the Punjabi is the most convenient punching bag out there because despite being a behemoth he ain't gonna respond - The reaction isn't there !

Over here the Punjabi wasn't the punching bag - it was the Rural Sindhi or the PPP in other words & they do bite back !

Furthermore Altaf's Statements are one of many with a complete history to them unlike the one-off aerial fires of ANP or PPP whenever Punjab is to be emotionally blackmailed !

A case in point could be that Altaf's 'Mushy is being targeted because hes a Muhajir' didn't elicit nearly the same kind of response as his previous statement did because inadvertently the Punjabi came into the picture through implication !

Still furthermore - Not quite a few politicians from Punjab have responded to this or even to the threat of creating a new province its the Sindhi Nationalists, PPP & other such regional parties who've reacted as strongly as they did !

Why do you think thats so ? Because they bite back....we don't !

Even on this forum the ones who've responded back are the ones who've always responded to such statements & had there been a PDF when the ANP or PPP were going about making statements about breaking Pakistan up they would !

We're a passionate lot without any soft-spot for or a special kind of hate for anyone - You can judge by the reaction that JI got when her Leader thought of creating a 'Martyr....not Martyr' debate !

Well with the rapid pace of the " website modification " , we can all assume it to be a " glitch " or well " bug " . No , it is not only about " grievances " , we cant shy away from reality , it happened and it is the most plausible explanation , you always seek for the party's popularity and present influence . Mate , there's inequality even here you see , other political parties history or present activities that have been more damaging to the country and the same sort of statements , far worse at times do not seem to illicit the same and equal hate .

As for the Punjabi thing , you are looking under the wrong carpet here . I have always agreed with you that Punjab " being responsible for all evils that befalls people " is irrational and false , a convenient excuse , always , a political card , yes . We all know how is it done being a Pakistani , too long we have been obsessed with the whole world and Kaafirs fighting against us , the point is shifting all blame on a party is easy , that is what I have been trying to tell all along . I do not agree with many policies of MQM , but I also do not agree with my countrymen's habit/thought pattern of uniting and putting all blame on it , the reality is that there are too many other elements in the city , that is the crux of the whole argument . You operated against criminals and the situation's the same , its right in front on your eyes . Why aren't you having success ? .

Armstrong , we are arriving at square one again , these one off statements are no different or worse than Altaf's ones . These political parties have made these over and over again , to no such " disdain/hate/strong condemnation " by the same people and they have more influence than this relatively small party . It is only the " London boy " who sets people off . Why discount others , I am asking ? Allow me to say that the hypocrisy is seen when parties are ready to partition Punjab but its blasphemy when one talks on Sindh - even PTI . and the statement on Musharraf being punished for being a Muhajir isn't true , its nothing more than usual political revenge , though its raising questions because of its nature .

 

[Armstrong]

Well with the rapid pace of the " website modification " , we can all assume it to be a " glitch " or well " bug " . No , it is not only about " grievances " , we cant shy away from reality , it happened and it is the most plausible explanation , you always seek for the party's popularity and present influence . Mate , there's inequality even here you see , other political parties history or present activities that have been more damaging to the country and the same sort of statements , far worse at times do not seem to illicit the same and equal hate .

As for the Punjabi thing , you are looking under the wrong carpet here . I have always agreed with you that Punjab " being responsible for all evils that befalls people " is irrational and false , a convenient excuse , always , a political card , yes . We all know how is it done being a Pakistani , too long we have been obsessed with the whole world and Kaafirs fighting against us , the point is shifting all blame on a party is easy , that is what I have been trying to tell all along . I do not agree with many policies of MQM , but I also do not agree with my countrymen's habit/thought pattern of uniting and putting all blame on it , the reality is that there are too many other elements in the city , that is the crux of the whole argument . You operated against criminals and the situation's the same , its right in front on your eyes . Why aren't you having success ? .

Armstrong , we are arriving at square one again , these one off statements are no different or worse than Altaf's ones . These political parties have made these over and over again , to no such " disdain/hate/strong condemnation " by the same people and they have more influence than this relatively small party . It is only the " London boy " who sets people off . Why discount others , I am asking ? Allow me to say that the hypocrisy is seen when parties are ready to partition Punjab but its blasphemy when one talks on Sindh - even PTI . and the statement on Musharraf being punished for being a Muhajir isn't true , its nothing more than usual political revenge , though its raising questions because of its nature .

Because the Operation is conducted by the same people they're supposed to fight; I'm no expert but I think it seems irrational to conduct an Operation against the Militant Wings of Political Parties by a Highly Politicized Police or even the Rangers when the Operation is being directed by the same Political Parties !

I think its because of the Muhajir Issue - that thing has been said so many times over & Altaf Bhai has reminded all of us so many times about 'How we Owe the Muhajir the country because lets face it - we lot - weren't doing anything' that after a few decades of a concentrated doze of the same without a parallel mind you (none of the Nationalists have been off & on about something like that for decades) has created a negative perception of the Muhajir Community with the MQM being the embodiment of it !

You don't see the children of the Immigrants from UP, Bihar etc. living in Punjab & they are quite a few here eliciting the same reaction from others the same way the MQM does because over the years Karachi & more so the Karachiwallas have developed this reputation in the eyes of many !

 

[blain2]

a former army chief doesnt need a terrorist/ethno-centric traitor to speak on his behalf

i hope someone puts this altaf character out of his misery.....piece of trash

Agreed but lets treat a former Army chief like a former Army chief. The current character assassination and dragging him around courts on stupid charges (BB, Bugti, Lal Masjid) is disrespectful to the entire institution of the Army. You want to prosecute him for something real then lets go back to the 1999 takeover and discuss the real issue.

Lets hold him accountable for taking over the then government and give him a fair trial. Not one where the odds are already stacked up against him to get revenge for the sitting PM and the former CJP (a party to the original sin of 1999).

 

[blain2]

Constituency? Are you serious? You are implying its a Punjabi army? Thats a typical MQM point of view.

Aslam Beg also did not have a 'constituency' yet he was a powerful Army chief. Army is Pakistan's. Its not any ethnic group to which it belongs. It has amply demonstrated it by electing Army chiefs from different backgrounds.

If army was biased against Musharraf, he wouldn't have reached major general or lt. general position.I m disappointed in the way people think!

Couple of things. First don't confuse my posts with MQM point of view or whatever that means. Lets stick to facts. If I was representing a political party, I'd openly say it without any reservations but since I am not, lets stay away from silly labeling. I have enough years behind me to not fall for the jazbaati drama that entails all discussions around provincialism. If I say what is on my mind about MQM, that does not make my point typical of anything. I'd like to think that I voice my opinion fairly and not at the expense of any ethnicity. Now moving on to the topic on hand, what you have done above is basically given me an apples to oranges comparison.

Aslam Beg was not "chosen" or picked by someone to become the CoAS. It was the abnormal case of the CoAS of the PA dying in an accident resulting in the VCoAS taking over as the next chief. The only thing normal in this case was that the next senior most officer (VCoAS Gen Aslam Beg) became the Army chief. So there was no "selection/election" opportunity for the civilians to influence and he happened to be a Muhajir as was Shamim Alam Khan. So the issue here is not about provincialism in the Army, rather in the dealings of the civilian politicians with the Army.

So read my post carefully. Its about the perception that civilians have in their mind that leads them to make certain calls. Musharraf was posted as the CoAS by NS who was very clear that he wanted someone more "controllable" and this resulted in the sending off of two other officers home (One Pakhtun and a Punjabi). Why he was picked is because NS and team certainly thought of it as someone who would not have enough support within the Army to disrupt the workings of his government. That he was wrong and did not understand the way the Army tends to work is an altogether different issue.

Disappointment should be with the fact that a former CoAS of the Pakistan Army is being dragged around courts and scapegoated for the collective crimes of the past 50 years and 5 dictatorships!

 

[AhsanAmin]

Disappointment should be with the fact that a former CoAS of the Pakistan Army is being dragged around courts and scapegoated for the collective crimes of the past 50 years and 5 dictatorships!

We have an examples of Korean military general who ruled South Korea for about a decade and was later sentenced to death by their court. A lot of responsibility comes with being a COAS and it is important that law should be allowed to take its course if someone fails to stand by those responsibilities.

There are no ifs and buts here. And we need not maintain false prestige of any institution and only then we will have some improvement in the culture of these institutions who are considered holy and they take undue advantage of this status.

 

[blain2]

I disagree. The oath that a passing out cadet takes has certain implications that should be understood by all and sundry. The allegiance is first and foremost to the Country and then to its constitution, not the other way around.

Secondly, the law should be allowed to run its due course but not through "selective" application of it. This seems to be lost on many of my fellow Pakistanis. If the law is selective in its application then its not fair, if its not fair then it does not serve justice, if it does not serve justice then its useless!

If the point is to do away with the culture of institutional impunity, then why is the judiciary (Ch. Iftikhar and cohort) and the parliament (MPs supporting the takeover and forming the government under the military ruler) getting a pass in these legal proceedings?

Why is the former CoAS being prosecuted on the charges of declaring emergency and not the original sin of removing an elected government?

 

[AhsanAmin]

The allegiance is first and foremost to the Country and then to its constitution, not the other way around.

The allegiance to the country does not mean that any general who thinks in himself that he can run the country better will be allowed to take over and later pardoned.

This is a very serious problem in our country and I talked about it in two related posts in another thread.

Enough is Enough | Page 3 | Pakistan Defence

Enough is Enough | Page 3 | Pakistan Defence

I have no personal enmity with Musharraf but back door intrusion on democracy by generals must end and we must choose democracy once for all and try to improve and perfect our democratic system and we have to set an example that prevents future opportunistic generals from repeating the same story again and again.

Yes, I agree with you on that greater crime he committed was toppling an elected government and that should be the right title and subject of his trial.

 

[blain2]

The allegiance to the country does not mean that any general who thinks in himself that he can run the country better will be allowed to take over and later pardoned.

This is a very serious problem in our country and I talked about it in two related posts in another thread.

Enough is Enough | Page 3 | Pakistan Defence

Enough is Enough | Page 3 | Pakistan Defence

I have no personal enmity with Musharraf but back door intrusion on democracy by generals must end and we must choose democracy once for all and try to improve and perfect our democratic system and we have to set an example that prevents future opportunistic generals from repeating the same story again and again.

Yes, I agree with you on that greater crime he committed was toppling an elected government and that should be the right title and subject of his trial.

Agreed in principle. I too am not for military taking over the government, but in this case, the right case and charges have to be brought up and then you have to prove that Musharraf is indeed guilty of "taking over" the country given that his takeover was not like that of Zia, Yahya and Ayub since he himself was in an interesting situation up in the air at the time. The "institution of the Army" was definitely involved in deposing the then elected government. There were people who moved on the ground in his absence.

If the right case is not brought up, then the only message being conveyed to the military command is that in the future they have to ensure they tie all loose ends when they take over instead of putting a real deterrence in front of them.

In one of my posts about a week ago, I suggested the same that the trial, if it is to be legitimate, should be large scale going back to 1999 and the punishment should be for all involved (similar to the Turkish case as you have stated in your post above.) and not just Musharraf.

 

[W.11]

 

[Secur]

Why is the former CoAS being prosecuted on the charges of declaring emergency and not the original sin of removing an elected government?

Because we do not have enough space in jails and judges in courts to try people ! Even imagining how many people can then be tried for article 6 clause 2 is difficult .

 

[Armstrong]

So I heard that @Secur got a lower GPA than most because hes a Muhajir !

Kitnaa zulm hovaaa iss bichareiii Immigrant kei saaath !

An immigrant who was born on this soil as was his Dad but he still insists to be called an Immigrant because he thinks it has a nicer ring to it then calling him a Bihari !

Especially after I threw every Bihari Kebab related joke at him in the book !

Oi @Secur mein bhoool giyaaa - Were you of Bihari descent or was it something else ?

I mean I know that @HRK Bhai Nizam of Hyderabad keh great-grand-nephew haiiin !

 

[Edevelop]

I won't be surprised if Musharraf becomes MQM chief. Of course that is if he stays alive and Altaf on the other hand ends up in Jail in London.

After all it was Mushy who revived MQM, brought them to power, and armed them to teeth....

 

[Secur]

Because the Operation is conducted by the same people they're supposed to fight; I'm no expert but I think it seems irrational to conduct an Operation against the Militant Wings of Political Parties by a Highly Politicized Police or even the Rangers when the Operation is being directed by the same Political Parties !

I think its because of the Muhajir Issue - that thing has been said so many times over & Altaf Bhai has reminded all of us so many times about 'How we Owe the Muhajir the country because lets face it - we lot - weren't doing anything' that after a few decades of a concentrated doze of the same without a parallel mind you (none of the Nationalists have been off & on about something like that for decades) has created a negative perception of the Muhajir Community with the MQM being the embodiment of it !

You don't see the children of the Immigrants from UP, Bihar etc. living in Punjab & they are quite a few here eliciting the same reaction from others the same way the MQM does because over the years Karachi & more so the Karachiwallas have developed this reputation in the eyes of many !

Mate , the corrupt to the core heavily politicized police cant do anything hence even after spending billions of rupees , mobilizing forces and using massive resources , we haven't been able to bring back peace to Karachi . What does that tell you ? They have operated massively against MQM , if that was the chief cause of concern , I am sure we wouldn't have been lifting the " funerals " of ten-twelve people daily still . So , well things will continue in the same manner unless they act equally and without bias .

I do not know where you get that idea but I have rarely ever even seen him talk about that or imply such thing . Maybe , its just something stereotypical but I personally haven't been a witness . Negative perceptions , I know , nothing strange . The unequal hate and prejudice , more than evident . But a logical explanation for that none . I told you that people do support that political party and even gave you a vague and general idea , where is that support derived from . Maybe , then others should have worked for the city and not let that political party rise up to this level if they do not agree and think they can act better here . Otherwise , maybe its good to learn to treat it as your usual political party with a militant wing like all others and not a banned terrorist outfit .