Muhammad Ali Jinnah - The Great Leader

[M. Sarmad]

@M. Sarmad I felt sad after our conversation on Mr.Jinnah @MultaniGuy changed his avatar to a no name guy who most have no idea about...

Personal habits of a man shouldn't cloud one's judgement on actions of Mr. Jinnah

He has put up Ch. Rehmat Ali's pic, the guy who described Jinnah as the Boozna (a baboon) of Bombay

Jinnah was bitterly criticized and called a traitor by Rahmat Ali .

Rehmat Ali issued a pamphlet on 9 june 1947 regarding Pakistan and the main target of attack was Jinnah :

"In accepting the British plan, Mr Jinnah has acted the Judas and betrayed, bartered and dismembered the Millat ........ His crime is too black to be whitewashed ... its consequences are too calamitous to be forgotten by the Millat ... his attempts are too crude to deceive history " (K.K. Aziz , Rahmat Ali - A biography p.262)

Rahmat also said :
"We found all our hopes reduced to dust and ashes by the folly and foul play of one man alone Quisiling-i-Azam-Jinnah "(K.K. Aziz , Rahmat Ali - A biography p.323)

And you are right. What Jinnah did or didn't do in his personal life is no one else's concern

 

[Maula Jatt]

- https://historypak.com/choudhry-rahmat-ali-1895-1951/

"After the creation of Pakistan, Ali returned from England in April 1948, planning to stay in the country, but his belongings were confiscated and he was expelled by the prime minister Liaqat Ali Khan. In October 1948, Ali left empty-handed. He died on 3 February 1951 in Cambridge "destitute, forlorn and lonely".[6] The funeral expenses of insolvent Ali were covered by Emmanuel College, Cambridge on the instructions of its Master. Ali was buried on 20 February 1951 at Cambridge City Cemetery."

Listen guys I feel if you do good with Pakistan
Things turn out bad for you...

 

[doorstar]

Jinnah was bitterly criticized and called a traitor by Rahmat Ali .

Rehmat Ali issued a pamphlet on 9 june 1947 regarding Pakistan and the main target of attack was Jinnah :

because he thought Pakistan should have looked like the map below:

 

[M. Sarmad]

because he thought Pakistan should have looked like the map below:
View attachment 783746

Ch Rehmat Ali was not against the creation of Pakistan, he just wanted a bigger Pakistan, a commonwealth of Pak nations in the continent of Dinia. He was an extremist, and an idealist. Jinnah OTOH was liberal and realist.

 

[doorstar]

Ch Rehmat Ali was not against the creation of Pakistan, he just wanted a bigger Pakistan, a commonwealth of Pak nations in the continent of Dinia. He was an extremist, and an idealist. Jinnah OTOH was liberal and realist.

yup that is what I meant
the green area is his idea of Pakistan

 

[MultaniGuy]

I don't think you know what you are talking about.

The very reason behind Pakistan banning Stanley's Jinnah biography was the fact that Stanley Wolpert plainly refused to take out the part where he had written about Jinnah's dietary habits, i.e., Jinnah drank alcohol and ate ham sandwiches. Stanley Wolpert has quoted M.C Chagla (a friend turned foe). But Chagla was not the only one to say that, there are a lot of other people also who have maintained that Jinnah liked ham sandwiches and pork sausages (For details , See Stanley Jackson , the Agha Khan London , 1952 , p 169) ....

As for the other guy you mentioned (Akbar S. Ahmed), he says that nearly every book about Jinnah outside Pakistan mentions that he drank alcohol.

Jinnah was a liberal Muslim who followed Shia Islam. And he remained one till the very end.

But none of this makes Jinnah a lesser man (or leader)

If you respect Jinnah, respect the man for what he really was, not for what you would've liked him to be. Otherwise there are a lot of people out there, our entire religious establishment / Mullah Biradari most notably, who hate the man for being irreligious (or even worse a Shia), but mostly avoid to say that in open

Show proof? Otherwise you are talking trash. I cannot take your word for it.

Yes, Mr. Jinnah was not a model Muslim.

This does not change my view what Pakistan should be and how it should be governed.

you know everything, dontcha? PhD in history, I bet, from Youtube university

Who the hell are you? For a Britisher you should be the last talking about Muslims and what not.

I never found anything impressive about Jinnah, just seemed like a western-anglo slave/suckup. He wasn't even a practicing Muslim one bit and established an "Islamic Republic" with ideals like democracy which are contrary to Islam

I see nothing wrong with democracy under the framework of Islam. I see nothing wrong with "Islamic democracy" or "Islamic Socialism."

I don't think you know what you are talking about.

The very reason behind Pakistan banning Stanley's Jinnah biography was the fact that Stanley Wolpert plainly refused to take out the part where he had written about Jinnah's dietary habits, i.e., Jinnah drank alcohol and ate ham sandwiches. Stanley Wolpert has quoted M.C Chagla (a friend turned foe). But Chagla was not the only one to say that, there are a lot of other people also who have maintained that Jinnah liked ham sandwiches and pork sausages (For details , See Stanley Jackson , the Agha Khan London , 1952 , p 169) ....

As for the other guy you mentioned (Akbar S. Ahmed), he says that nearly every book about Jinnah outside Pakistan mentions that he drank alcohol.

Jinnah was a liberal Muslim who followed Shia Islam. And he remained one till the very end.

But none of this makes Jinnah a lesser man (or leader)

If you respect Jinnah, respect the man for what he really was, not for what you would've liked him to be. Otherwise there are a lot of people out there, our entire religious establishment / Mullah Biradari most notably, who hate the man for being irreligious (or even worse a Shia), but mostly avoid to say that in open

I still need to read Akbar S. Ahmed's book. Stanley Wolpert's book. Also Hector Bolitho's book.

I need to see unbiased primary sources about the man.
Personally though, I see the Muslim League credited with partition, not just Jinnah.

 

[MultaniGuy]

He has put up Ch. Rehmat Ali's pic, the guy who described Jinnah as the Boozna (a baboon) of Bombay

Jinnah was bitterly criticized and called a traitor by Rahmat Ali .

Rehmat Ali issued a pamphlet on 9 june 1947 regarding Pakistan and the main target of attack was Jinnah :

"In accepting the British plan, Mr Jinnah has acted the Judas and betrayed, bartered and dismembered the Millat ........ His crime is too black to be whitewashed ... its consequences are too calamitous to be forgotten by the Millat ... his attempts are too crude to deceive history " (K.K. Aziz , Rahmat Ali - A biography p.262)

Rahmat also said :
"We found all our hopes reduced to dust and ashes by the folly and foul play of one man alone Quisiling-i-Azam-Jinnah "(K.K. Aziz , Rahmat Ali - A biography p.323)

And you are right. What Jinnah did or didn't do in his personal life is no one else's concern

You forgot Hector Bolitho's biography on Jinnah.

There is another biography on Jinnah.

 

[doorstar]

I never found anything impressive about Jinnah, just seemed like a western-anglo slave/suckup. He wasn't even a practicing Muslim one bit and established an "Islamic Republic" with ideals like democracy which are contrary to Islam

whose duplicate are you then? is it that RSS hindu @HalfMoon given another ID? @SQ8 @Foxtrot Alpha

Who the hell are you? For a Britisher you should be the last talking about Muslims and what not.

@Foxtrot Alpha @SQ8

 

[M. Sarmad]

Show proof? Otherwise you are talking trash. I cannot take your word for it.

Jinnah of Pakistan by Stanley Wolpert (1984) pp. 78-79 :

------------------
-----------------------------

Jinnah, Pakistan and Islamic Identity by Akbar S Ahmed (p. 220):

The fact that Jinnah drank alcohol is mentioned almost every time he is discussed outside Pakistan (usually as innuendo in writers like M.J.Akbar, Bolitho, Collins and Lapierre, Wolpert, Duncan and C.Lamb) and omitted from every book published in Pakistan (no discussion in Zaidi, Mujahid, Riaz Ahmad et al.)

 

[El Sidd]

Jinnah of Pakistan by Stanley Wolpert (1984) pp. 78-79 :

View attachment 783807

------------------
-----------------------------

Jinnah, Pakistan and Islamic Identity by Akbar S Ahmed (p. 220):

The fact that Jinnah drank alcohol is mentioned almost every time he is discussed outside Pakistan (usually as innuendo in writers like M.J.Akbar, Bolitho, Collins and Lapierre, Wolpert, Duncan and C.Lamb) and omitted from every book published in Pakistan (no discussion in Zaidi, Mujahid, Riaz Ahmad et al.)


View attachment 783811

You would still need 4 witnesses. Jinnah was not a shy man. I am sure you can find eye witnesses to his way of life.

 

[_NOBODY_]

I never found anything impressive about Jinnah, just seemed like a western-anglo slave/suckup. He wasn't even a practicing Muslim one bit and established an "Islamic Republic" with ideals like democracy which are contrary to Islam

He was living a great life in Britain so why would he abandon that luxurious life and come here if he was an Anglo slave? In what universe is democracy contrary to Islam, democracy is by far the most the Islamic form of government.

 

[M. Sarmad]

You would still need 4 witnesses. Jinnah was not a shy man. I am sure you can find eye witnesses to his way of life.

Consumption of alcohol does not carry hudd punishment; The Holy Qur'an does not prescribe any punishment for consumption of alcohol. It's a sin, which like other sins, has to be avoided.

Zia-ul-Haq, based on some secondary sources, did include Alcohol Consumption in the 1979 Hudood Ordinance with 'whipping' as the suggested punishment for offenders but later on The Federal Shariat Court of Pakistan deciding the petition (Dr. Muhammad Aslam Khaki vs Federation of Pakistan Petition No.2/1 of 2006 ) declared whipping for the offense of drinking as un-Islamic and directed the government to amend the law to make the offense bailable.

Moreover, during Jinnah's times, alcohol consumption was legal. Jinnah was a true law-abiding citizen. As for his 'sins', no one is perfect and it's matter between one and one's creator only, but with hundreds of millions praying for 'Maghfirat' of Jinnah for his services to the Muslims and Islam, he most probably will be forgiven. Can't say the same about his detractors who declared him Kafir though.

 

[El Sidd]

Consumption of alcohol does not carry hudd punishment; The Holy Qur'an does not prescribe any punishment for consumption of alcohol. It's a sin, which like other sins, has to be avoided.

Zia-ul-Haq, based on some secondary sources, did include Alcohol Consumption in the 1979 Hudood Ordinance with 'whipping' as the suggested punishment for offenders but later on The Federal Shariat Court of Pakistan deciding the petition (Dr. Muhammad Aslam Khaki vs Federation of Pakistan Petition No.2/1 of 2006 ) declared whipping for the offense of drinking as un-Islamic and directed the government to amend the law to make the offense bailable.

Moreover, during Jinnah's times, alcohol consumption was legal. Jinnah was a true law-abiding citizen. As for his 'sins', no one is perfect and it's matter between one and one's creator only, but with hundreds of millions praying for 'Maghfirat' of Jinnah for his services to the Muslims and Islam, he most probably will be forgiven. Can't say the same about his detractors who declared him Kafir though.

That is not the point. You don't have 4 authors who say the same thing about his dietary preferences. It seems all lost to history and folklore.

Zia-ul-Haq, based on some secondary sources, did include Alcohol Consumption in the 1979 Hudood Ordinance with 'whipping' as the suggested punishment for offenders but later on The Federal Shariat Court of Pakistan deciding the petition (Dr. Muhammad Aslam Khaki vs Federation of Pakistan Petition No.2/1 of 2006 ) declared whipping for the offense of drinking as un-Islamic and directed the government to amend the law to make the offense bailable.

The whipping was for disturbing public order not for alcohol consumption.

Moreover, during Jinnah's times, alcohol consumption was legal. Jinnah was a true law-abiding citizen. As for his 'sins', no one is perfect and it's matter between one and one's creator only, but with hundreds of millions praying for 'Maghfirat' of Jinnah for his services to the Muslims and Islam, he most probably will be forgiven. Can't say the same about his detractors who declared him Kafir though.

You seem to be making gods decision for him.

 

[M. Sarmad]

That is not the point. You don't have 4 authors who say the same thing about his dietary preferences. It seems all lost to history and folklore.

You need 4 witnesses to prove a Hudd crime. 2 witnesses are enough for proving all other Tazir crimes.

But Jinnah committed no crime. As for sins and punishment (or forgiveness) on the day of judgement, no witnesses are required. One's own body parts will bear witness against one's deeds as per the Holy Qur'an

 

[MultaniGuy]

Jinnah of Pakistan by Stanley Wolpert (1984) pp. 78-79 :

View attachment 783807

------------------
-----------------------------

Jinnah, Pakistan and Islamic Identity by Akbar S Ahmed (p. 220):

The fact that Jinnah drank alcohol is mentioned almost every time he is discussed outside Pakistan (usually as innuendo in writers like M.J.Akbar, Bolitho, Collins and Lapierre, Wolpert, Duncan and C.Lamb) and omitted from every book published in Pakistan (no discussion in Zaidi, Mujahid, Riaz Ahmad et al.)


View attachment 783811

Liberals like you are a joke.
I have to contact Historians.

Anyways eating Ham sandwiches and drinking alcohol makes you a sinner, and not an apostate.