More Mirages

[Blue Marlin]

It has been out of production for over a decade, who the hell thought of this?

me

 

[Tipu7]

this is a response to a request from India to purchase a single engined fighter.
why doesn't India look at purchasing the design rights or get a licence for the Dassault Mirage 2000?
they can transfer the tools and jigs to India as France don't make the mirage 2000 any more
they already have it in service and they love it?

it would remove the stupid competition between the f16 and the gripen.

you can provide upgrades and parts to other users and would provide experience you could have never gotten before or could have got if you built the f16 or gripen as kits.

obviously it would need updating and the chances of local production of its engines [m53] as assemblies and local production of perishables and non critical and sensitive parts are higher than the m88 or anything from GE.

what do you think?

@Vergennes @Taygibay

Dassault offered IAF back in 2001-03 to shift production line of M2K in India so that IAF could be able to get homegrown M2K in order to fill up its demand of single engine aircraft.
IAF refused the proposal by stating that their own "indigenous" 4+ Generation air craft will be ready to equip air force with in "matter of two or three years"

Then they come up with Rafale to compete in medium air craft competition with offer of domestic production but ended up in off the shelf purchase of 36 instead of intended 126 aircrafts with domestic production. Now IAF neither has M2K production lines nor LCA in it's air force after 15 years. Same goes for Rafale for time being.

 

[kaykay]

Dassault offered IAF back in 2001-03 to shift production line of M2K in India so that IAF could be able to get homegrown M2K in order to fill up its demand of single engine aircraft.
IAF refused the proposal by stating that their own "indigenous" 4+ Generation air craft will be ready to equip air force with in "matter of two or three years"

Then they come up with Rafale to compete in medium air craft competition with offer of domestic production but ended up in off the shelf purchase of 36 instead of intended 126 aircrafts with domestic production. Now IAF neither has M2K production lines nor LCA in it's air force after 15 years. Same goes for Rafale for time being.

Bullcrap!!! Back in 2000-2002 IAF Initially wanted 126 Mirage2ks( original MRCA) but French offered Rafales instead....later the whole deal converted into MMRCA around 2005-7 with 6 fighters into competition.

 

[anant_s]

@Blue Marlin
The idea however novel it maybe, isn't new. the bigger problem is its relevance today.
back in 2000 after Kargil, IAF was so pleased with Mirage, that it wanted to increase its inventory and make it its front line fighter in that category (MKI was still in nascent stages in those days).
As a result they asked government to buy more Mirages and that was birth of MMRCA. Time passed and things started changing. France was making transition from Mirage to Rafale and had this idea of buying off entire manufacturing assembly line from Dassault been floated in mid 2000s, France probably would've obliged.
Unfortunately, government thought of going for open tender and as luck would have it specifications were changed several times before a formal tender could be floated.
Mirage lines were effectively closed by that time and Rafale was offered product and we all know what conspired after that, mainly on our inability to take decision and realizing that however good intentions were to purchase a hardware in open tender, execution of it is all wrong.
Today when we hear of all the news of India willing to buy F-16, it makes you wonder why we couldnot simply purchase a few (say 4-5) squadrons of Mirage in first place, a decade ago. Those 75-80 jets would've meant a great deal and contained the number loss owing to age related attrition and above all given IAF time to think rationally over its next course of action including deciding fate of LCA and its proposed variants, while not worrying about its fleet obsolescence.
If we look back, you would find its a case of passing on with decision making process for far too long leading to a desperate situation.
Let us just hope that new policies being formulated for defence procurement are far realistic and simple and yield result for us to make competitive purchases from open market, in reasonably short time.

Best if HAL does it.

Sir, its not the HAL but ambiguous procurement policies that are to blame for present situation. Just too many opportunities were lost.

 

[neem456]

There is no such offer from DA.
On other side LM and saab are ready with their plates in hand.

 

[Khafee]

Sir, its not the HAL but ambiguous procurement policies that are to blame for present situation. Just too many opportunities were lost.

Please elaborate.

Thank You

 

[Tipu7]

Bullcrap!!! Back in 2000-2002 IAF Initially wanted 126 Mirage2ks( original MRCA) but French offered Rafales instead....later the whole deal converted into MMRCA around 2005-7 with 6 fighters into competition.

You are talking about separate event.

 

[Signalian]

PAF could have been out of the F-16 mess.

 

[Skull and Bones]

Bullcrap!!! Back in 2000-2002 IAF Initially wanted 126 Mirage2ks( original MRCA) but French offered Rafales instead....later the whole deal converted into MMRCA around 2005-7 with 6 fighters into competition.

By the time India officially put forward the tender, Mirage production was ceased for about 18 months. Perhaps this is a better idea to buy the production rights.

 

[anant_s]

Please elaborate.

HAL is a manufacturer and is its domain is restricted primarily to delivering products from its assembly lines. Its has very little say in overall fleet configuration and future planning. I would like to quote example of MKI program which is running from mid 2000 and HAL has been able to deliver Sukhois at an acceptable rate without much of a problem, once it grasped details of manufacturing. The same is true for BAe Hawk AJT.
Now even with LCA program its has started to dispatch products at a smaller rate (initially). There is therefore no doubts regarding their ability of mass producing.
The problem lies with our inability to procure new platforms and technology.
In above context, had Mirage manufacturing line shifted to India in early 2000s, HAL would've delivered 80-90 mirages easily in 8 years and by 2012-13, we would've had a fleet of 4-5 squadrons of a very capable and proven fighter which IAF wanted in first place.
Unfortunately we missed this opportunity and instead went for an open tender procurement (MMRCA) and this unfortunately failed to yield desired results. This was a failure of our procurement system and administration that runs it.

 

[Blue Marlin]

@Blue Marlin
The idea however novel it maybe, isn't new. the bigger problem is its relevance today.
back in 2000 after Kargil, IAF was so pleased with Mirage, that it wanted to increase its inventory and make it its front line fighter in that category (MKI was still in nascent stages in those days).
As a result they asked government to buy more Mirages and that was birth of MMRCA. Time passed and things started changing. France was making transition from Mirage to Rafale and had this idea of buying off entire manufacturing assembly line from Dassault been floated in mid 2000s, France probably would've obliged.
Unfortunately, government thought of going for open tender and as luck would have it specifications were changed several times before a formal tender could be floated.
Mirage lines were effectively closed by that time and Rafale was offered product and we all know what conspired after that, mainly on our inability to take decision and realizing that however good intentions were to purchase a hardware in open tender, execution of it is all wrong.
Today when we hear of all the news of India willing to buy F-16, it makes you wonder why we couldnot simply purchase a few (say 4-5) squadrons of Mirage in first place, a decade ago. Those 75-80 jets would've meant a great deal and contained the number loss owing to age related attrition and above all given IAF time to think rationally over its next course of action including deciding fate of LCA and its proposed variants, while not worrying about its fleet obsolescence.
If we look back, you would find its a case of passing on with decision making process for far too long leading to a desperate situation.
Let us just hope that new policies being formulated for defence procurement are far realistic and simple and yield result for us to make competitive purchases from open market, in reasonably short time.


Sir, its not the HAL but ambiguous procurement policies that are to blame for present situation. Just too many opportunities were lost.

thanks for the long reply.
the mirage line is sttill there [to my knowledge] its just dead transfering the tools, jigs and machines is relivitively easy.
the mrca killed the mirage as they [dassault] pushed for the newer rafale instead. and thats the problem as they both in differant classes.
i feel the chances of it to happen is next to none which is a shame as india will be lobbied high hell and back with two giants shouting their name all over india with their name on bill boards and bus stops.

i feel the issue is the lca being so behind that they need a completely new aircraft tosupplement iaf's urgent need for new aircraft. but this being india in ist [indian standard time] things will be slow. i wont be supprised if this singled engined fighter competition between lm and saab is so long lm will run out of orders and be dependant on india.

my mirage ida would take about 3 years before we see them roling of the line as they would need to be upgraded and staff need training.

or if india cant build more mk'2 why dont they follow their neighbours foot steps and start a rose programe and buy mk2's from other countries and upgrade them.

 

[volatile]

The rational is good but there will be issue from France like what they did in 2004/5 with PAF when PAF wanted Mirage 2000 in numbers at that time production was going French said go for Rafale forget about Mirages . Now IAF chose Rafale and there is no way they can get old platform as new but IAF can look for used ones from UAE/Qatar even French ones wont be a bad idea

 

[anant_s]

or if india cant build more mk'2 why dont they follow their neighbours foot steps and start a rose programe and buy mk2's from other countries and upgrade them.

This i think is highlight.
As @Oscar remarked in some other thread today, that if all this comes true, LCA program is as good as dead and we won't see anything beyond 80 odd LCA mark 1 on order (mark 1A) included.
Now assuming this is true, one more angle that needs to be looked into is, naval requirement. Presently Rafale can be used on ACs and so can be Grippen and i think India would consider this because we wish to manufacture domestically.
Now government would seriously consider this point that in future any platform that is going to be used should be independent of sanctions as these would prove to be common cause failure for both Navy and IAF.
All this makes Grippen and Rafale quite the favorites.
So this time around anything that happens, has much larger ramifications.
i still hope we stick with Rafale and LCA/Grippen combination

 

[Blue Marlin]

This i think is highlight.
As @Oscar remarked in some other thread today, that if all this comes true, LCA program is as good as dead and we won't see anything beyond 80 odd LCA mark 1 on order (mark 1A) included.
Now assuming this is true, one more angle that needs to be looked into is, naval requirement. Presently Rafale can be used on ACs and so can be Grippen and i think India would consider this because we wish to manufacture domestically.
Now government would seriously consider this point that in future any platform that is going to be used should be independent of sanctions as these would prove to be common cause failure for both Navy and IAF.
All this makes Grippen and Rafale quite the favorites.
So this time around anything that happens, has much larger ramifications.
i still hope we stick with Rafale and LCA/Grippen combination

personally the lca would have been perfect if delivered on its original scheduled not the navy does not want it due to it being over weight, which i suspect is due to its strengthening of it landing gear which is necessary especially after its incident which involved the landing gear.

indeed the rafale can land on AC's and the gripen can be modified to do so but i don't think they have actually developed it as it costs a lot of money and its no point developing something if no one is gonna buy it. id expect Saab would develop it if the Indian navy launches a tender which they would as they rejected the tejas, and that's a competition between the rafale and the gripen, and who do you think would win? the jet yet to be developed or the one that's been flying for a decade with little or no problems.

but i do think it would be wise for India to go for the gripen along side the rafale and both the navy and the air force committing to buy each.

but since the air force and the navy are separate entities meeting the requirements for both groups is very hard.
as compared to your western neighbour where all three groups are one.

i think the lca should just go and die of quickly and work should begin on the amca, at the rate your going at i wont be surprised to find Pakistan getting fifth gen fighters before india. and the amca being inducted post 2030.

 

[Blue Marlin]

@waz @Zaki @Fenrir can you make this a sticky?