MODP Year Book 2017-18

[Rafi]

M113's are useless according to US by new threat standards.
That's why they brought Bradley M2/3 in picture.

Brads are death traps and have been RPGd many times.

 

[Sine Nomine]

Brads are death traps and have been RPGd many times.

They think about M113's.
They addressed that problem using MRAP's.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

But I think it will not be used as front line charging asset specially in Mechanise Infantry div. VIPER will be operated along with Armoured Regiments, so there are less chances for VIPER to come under heavy attack ....

hopfuly @Signalian might comment better

In most developed nations thats their job. Allow me to explain:

K-21 Korean:

2x ATGMs
40mm canon
Its around 27.5 tons.
740/840 hp engine yeah!!
HP/Ton 29.2
Front can take a 30mm
Roof protection against 155mm shell frags
All around 14.5mm protection sides etc.
Amphibious
And can carry 3 crew + 9 Soldiers


This will operate with korean tanks:

And than you have Tulpar!


The older M-113 inspired Korean IFV:

Even this appears better armoured than Viper:

That front cant definitely not take even a 20mm.

Does Viper give that level of protection or mobility?
Viper is 16 tons
Carries 2x ATGMs + 30mm remote controlled turret.
Protection level 4
The hull lacks a additional anti-fragmentation protection for the crew and dismounts
13 crew+ troops
360hp engine
Hp/ton lmao

Anything over 14.5mm armoured piercing round would blow it.

And what do our enemy has? Now only BMP-2s with 30mm canons and atgms but think about the future. They are spending along on their IFV fleet.

 

[YeBeWarned]

We need heavy armour too.
Ive seen of videos of our M-113s being blown apart. That thing cant withstand something over 12.7mm at max.

This “MIFV” is the same thing as “PIFV” from the 90s. Just added a better turret & newer APC variant.

Additional armour is definitely required.

What happen to Blitzkrieg ?

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

What happen to Blitzkrieg ?

Thats a multipurpose MRAP.
New worlds M113.

 

[YeBeWarned]

Thats a multipurpose MRAP.

Oh ok but any idea how effective it might be against the modern Threat specially IED's ? and is it possible to put ATGM on top of it ?

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Oh ok but any idea how effective it might be against the modern Threat specially IED's ? and is it possible to put ATGM on top of it ?

Im not sure about the ATGM part, but they can withstand a 10 KG IED & level 4 protection which they claim can be increased upto level 5 (thats almost the same as K-21)

Oh ok but any idea how effective it might be against the modern Threat specially IED's ? and is it possible to put ATGM on top of it ?

Its heavier but has alot of horses.

 

[HRK]

In most developed nations thats their job. Allow me to explain:

K-21 Korean:
View attachment 579188 View attachment 579189

2x ATGMs
40mm canon
Its around 27.5 tons.
740/840 hp engine yeah!!
HP/Ton 29.2
Front can take a 30mm
Roof protection against 155mm shell frags
All around 14.5mm protection sides etc.
Amphibious
And can carry 3 crew + 9 Soldiers


This will operate with korean tanks:

View attachment 579192

View attachment 579191 View attachment 579193

And than you have Tulpar!


The older M-113 inspired Korean IFV:

View attachment 579194

Even this appears better armoured than Viper:


View attachment 579203

That front cant definitely not take even a 20mm.

Does Viper give that level of protection or mobility?
Viper is 16 tons
Carries 2x ATGMs + 30mm remote controlled turret.
Protection level 4
The hull lacks a additional anti-fragmentation protection for the crew and dismounts
13 crew+ troops
360hp engine
Hp/ton lmao

Anything over 14.5mm armoured piercing round would blow it.

And what do our enemy has? Now only BMP-2s with 30mm canons and atgms but think about the future. They are spending along on their IFV fleet.

bro what you are suggesting is the category of Heavy IFVs, like Namer, Temsah or VN-11 Heavy IFVs.

OTOH on paper Viper specification suggest it will be a good system on its own merit, for this in my opinion IF PA in future decide to adopt heavy IFV than we could pursue two possible routs
- Conversion of remaining T-59/69 in IFVs like Chinese VN-11
- Or modification/adoption of AK hull for heavy IFV purpose

As far as Viper IFV concern it offer STANAG 4569 level-IV protection (click) which mean it offer protection against
- 14.5 mm armoured piercing round
- Shrapnel and explosion of 155 mm round at 30 meter distance
- 10 Kg mine blast under any wheel

Viper offer much better protection than M113, and if I am understanding it right the whole idea was to give PA something better than M-113 but light enough with ease of maintenance with superior mobility, BTW at +23 hp per tonne its power to weight ration is better than Al-Zarar MBT.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

bro what you are suggesting is the category of Heavy IFVs, like Namer, Temsah or VN-11 Heavy IFVs.

OTOH on paper Viper specification suggest it will be a good system on its own merit, for this in my opinion IF PA in future decide to adopt heavy IFV than we could pursue two possible routs
- Conversion of remaining T-59/69 in IFVs like Chinese VN-11
- Or modification/adoption of AK hull for heavy IFV purpose

As far as Viper IFV concern it offer STANAG 4569 level-IV protection (click) which mean it have offer protection against
- 14.5 mm armoured piercing round
- Shrapnel and explosion of 155 mm round at 30 meter distance
- 10 Kg mine blast under any wheel

Viper offer much better protection than M113, and if I and understanding it right the whole idea was to give PA something better than M-113 but light enough with ease of maintenance, BTW at +23 hp per tonne its power to weight ration is better than Al-Zarar MBT.

Bro, if they want a modern day IFV, they need to look at K-21 rather than 60 ton namer or a modernised M-113.

World is moving towards uni-chasis armoured vehicle families and offer more protection.

Our Viper is an overkill for BMP-2 but in modern combat that is not enough.

 

[Rafi]

The MODP report does not include strategic and classified programs, which are cooking on the side, some numbers and monetary values are "typos" or some such matter.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

VIPER seem a practical solution based on in-house industrial capabilities which most probably will match with Pakistan's terrain and environment as well, as Pakistan is manufacturing and using M113 series from quite some time, at this stage we can assume based on official information that it was the only prototype which was shown in IDEAS-2018, so it might be still in development phase.

Ukraine might offer BMP series or some new derivative in which PA seems not interested, even it was reported that in trials for the selection of Turret for VIPER PA rejected BMP series Turret. Based on modular armour concept which VIPER IFV use it may provide better protection and maintainability as compare to BMP series, only thing in which VIPER lack behind BMP-3 is power/weight ratio otherwise comparable or excel in other parameters.

Same is the case with Turkish Tulpar IFV as it weight up to 42 tonnes powered by 850 hp engine, almost as heavy as Al-Zarar tanks of PA and does not carry anti-tank missiles, so it appears Tulpar is produced to address needs and employment concept much different than PA

The rationale behind the Viper was to reduce costs by re-using as much of the existing M113 base as possible. But the corporatization of HIT might open another door in the next few years. Yes, right now HIT's scope for JVs is only restricted to light/commercial vehicles, but I believe the long-term play is to move into defence.

So, a foreign entity like Otokar or FNSS can walk in and (via FDI) set-up a production line in Pakistan for the Tulpar IFV, etc. Of course, the Pak Gov't or PA must keep a close eye on this and ensure there's real localization, not just a bunch of assembly work, but it's all doable. Once the foreign entity eats the upfront ToT costs, it'd be up to the PA to order from the HIT/foreign partner JV/subsidiary.

BTW ... keep an eye on Ukraine's new BMP-U project.

https://ukroboronprom.com.ua/en/med...a-perspektyvnogo-tanka-novogo-pokolinnya.html

 

[Thorough Pro]

Only to counter it, it's not worth copying.

Can the information which we probably stole from Brahmos engineer be helpful @Quwa ?

 

[Signalian]

But I think it will not be used as front line charging asset specially in Mechanise Infantry div. VIPER will be operated along with Armoured Regiments, so there are less chances for VIPER to come under heavy attack ....

hopfuly @Signalian might comment better

VIPER Brings the IFV concept into PA where as PA has been familiar with the APC concept since decades. This means that there could be some changes in PA's doctrine which should start coming out of Nowshera , basically from this place:
https://www.pakistanarmy.gov.pk/School-of-Armour-and-Mechanized-Warfare.php

The basic concept of mechanised Infantry is Infantry riding in APC or IFV keeping in pace with MBTs for armored assaults. Tracks of APC/IFV provide mobility in terrains where MBT can go.

Considering that VIPER has a 30 mm gun and 2 x ATGM's along with 7.62mm gun means the IFV can provide fire support against enemy personnel and other Armored vehicles.But this raises a few questions also:

1. 30 mm can be used against which targets since 12.7 mm has been replaced ? Pros and Cons of 30 mm over 12.7 mm.

2. ATGM capability means that M-901 ITOW and Maaz will be replaced in HAT's ? Future of Maaz after VIPER induction ?

3. HATs have ATGM and MG capability maximum firepower in the form of Maaz and 12.7mm M-113, will VIPER suit HATs? whats the future of HATs if MIB will get VIPER ?

4. IFV has proved less effective than MRAP in urban Ops, which means that an APC like M-113 is also not a good option for urban combat. How will PA use an IFV in Urban Combat considering that 30mm and ATGm are overkill and can cause un-necessary damage ?

5. Should an APC and IFV get amalgamated in one MIB ? 2 x APC Coy and 2 x IFV Coy ? One would have to look at ORBAT of US Army how M2 Bradley and M-113 are structured in Mechanised Infantry Battalion

6. Although VIPER as an IFV can fire at threats which M-113 as an APC cannot face; should VIPER be introduced in direct combat against enemy ? VIPER carries smoke dis-chargers also to dis engage or conceal in direct combat just like MBTs.

7. Loss of an APC or IFV means loss of Infantry transport capability for the MIB. Losing an IFV in combat is costlier than losing a 5 Ton truck that carries more infantry. How badly can the operational capability of an MIB get affected as it starts to lose its IFVs in direct combat ?

8. M-113 has 2-crew and can carry 11 troops. VIPER has 3-Crew and can carry 9 troops. How does that affect the deployment and operations of an MIB since two less troops will be dismounted for infantry operations on the ground for every IFV. Would more VIPERs be required in MIB when replacing APC?

9. Some IFVs have firing ports which can be used by Infantry to fire internally from IFV, should VIPER also employ firing ports ?

10. With the amount of fire power that VIPER has, should it be used as RECON vehicle for PA Armored formations , just like M-3 Bradley Cavalry vehicle?

VIPER has the ability to carry more sensors like IR, TV Camera etc where as M-113 or Talha are basic APCs. This makes VIPER costly to produce and requiring more maintenance than M-113. Any MBT round can destroy an IFV and APC. HEAT round could be primarily used, SABOT might pass through its sides or destroy the engine. No amount of armor can save IFV or APC from a direct hit of MBT. Caged armor is considered to save IFV or APC from RPG hits in urban combat. Against IED, chances of survival are very less.

 

[The Eagle]

VIPER has 3-Crew and can carry 9 troops.

The vehicle transports up to 13 soldiers (including a crew of three) in anti-blast seats without neck protection. (Jane's)

 

[HRK]

1. 30 mm can be used against which targets since 12.7 mm has been replaced ? Pros and Cons of 30 mm over 12.7 mm.

as you said 30 mm can be used against infantry troops, light armoured targets, fortified bunkers and limited air defence against low flying objects, here plz keep in mind that each of IA RAPID have 2 mechanised regiments in addition of 2 armoured regiments, so VIPER could possibly engage and tie-down those 2 mechanised regiments as BMP-2 could not sustain hits from 30 mm cannon rounds, the only downside of 30 mm cannon is that it will have less number of rounds available as compare to 12.7

2. ATGM capability means that M-901 ITOW and Maaz will be replaced in HAT's ? Future of Maaz after VIPER induction ?

No I think not as replacement, as HAT have dedicated role while VIPER have multipurpose IFV role so it would most probably complement these system rather replacing them

But even if PA choose to replace M-901 which are not inducted in numbers would not effect negatively as per my understanding

3. HATs have ATGM and MG capability maximum firepower in the form of Maaz and 12.7mm M-113, will VIPER suit HATs? whats the future of HATs if MIB will get VIPER ?

again different utility for both; HAT have dedicated role while M-113 with 12.7 mm would not be able stay in Battle field after dismounting troops and face BMP-2 of Indian Army in fire supporting role for PA infantry troops, here IFV with 30 mm cannon and 2 9M113 Konkurs anti tank missiles could fill the gap, it could provide the fire support to PA troops same as BMP IFV would provide to IA troops.

4. IFV has proved less effective than MRAP in urban Ops, which means that an APC like M-113 is also not a good option for urban combat. How will PA use an IFV in Urban Combat considering that 30mm and ATGm are overkill and can cause un-necessary damage ?

agreed weapon arrangements of VIPER IFV suggest it is not intended to be used in Urban conflict .... however M-113 with 12.7 mm machine gun is used in Urban conflict in former FATA region, basically to dismount the troops and stay at the back to provide cover we have seen this in videos of training for anti terrorist squad for urban warfare

5. Should an APC and IFV get amalgamated in one MIB ? 2 x APC Coy and 2 x IFV Coy ? One would have to look at ORBAT of US Army how M2 Bradley and M-113 are structured in Mechanised Infantry Battalion

possibility but should discuss it further ....

6. Although VIPER as an IFV can fire at threats which M-113 as an APC cannot face; should VIPER be introduced in direct combat against enemy ? VIPER carries smoke dis-chargers also to dis engage or conceal in direct combat just like MBTs.

I believe it will be used in direct combat ....

8. M-113 has 2-crew and can carry 11 troops. VIPER has 3-Crew and can carry 9 troops. How does that affect the deployment and operations of an MIB since two less troops will be dismounted for infantry operations on the ground for every IFV. Would more VIPERs be required in MIB when replacing APC?

as I said earlier my understanding is that it will complement APC as addition to MIB than as a replacement

9. Some IFVs have firing ports which can be used by Infantry to fire internally from IFV, should VIPER also employ firing ports ?

what we have seen during IDEAS-2018 was the first and only prototype, so with further development it may or may not have this feature ....

10. With the amount of fire power that VIPER has, should it be used as RECON vehicle for PA Armored formations , just like M-3 Bradley Cavalry vehicle?

hopefully recon. version would also be developed ....

VIPER has the ability to carry more sensors like IR, TV Camera etc where as M-113 or Talha are basic APCs. This makes VIPER costly to produce and requiring more maintenance than M-113. Any MBT round can destroy an IFV and APC. HEAT round could be primarily used, SABOT might pass through its sides or destroy the engine. No amount of armor can save IFV or APC from a direct hit of MBT. Caged armor is considered to save IFV or APC from RPG hits in urban combat. Against IED, chances of survival are very less.

obviously new tactics for its employment are required to be developed