MODI cleared Ishrat Murder

[Joe Shearer]

How about Abdul Hameed? Was he also a desh drohi?? I thought that you guys at least spare people like him. Is that not the case?

These paid hacks have a brief, and they are speaking to that brief. Part of the brief is to brand anyone in disagreement with their political faction either disloyal to the nation, or excessively loyal to some other faction. If you go through the posts of the BJP and Sangh Parivar supporters, they refuse to believe that their opponents are anything other than Congress supporters.

And the venom against the Italian woman comes out in one fetid stream.

 

[Omtatsat]

If there is political gamesmanship, more than half of it originates with the BJP. Why are they so agitated about it, why are their spokespersons wholly engaged with it, why have reacted even before their politicians are chargesheeted?

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/centra...i-cleared-ishrat-murder-15.html#ixzz2YJs0Xe3A

Please ask that to your friends in the MSM. Why is the entire biased media engaged in propagating 2 falsehoods:

1. That Ishrat Jahan and her companions were not LeT operatives, but innocent persons;

2. That The Gujarat Government CM and HM entered into a criminal conspiracy with certain officials of the IB for murdering innocent Muslims.

Why now, why so shrill, why so widespread?

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/centra...i-cleared-ishrat-murder-15.html#ixzz2YJtI8gT9

It is simply a defensive reaction to the falsehood perpetrated by the Anti national MSM and Congress

Please look at the case as it stands today, and tell me why it bothers the BJP so much. It is they who are responsible for the gamesmanship.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/centra...i-cleared-ishrat-murder-15.html#ixzz2YJtrr8S1

Unlike you, all sane persons can anticipate the sinister designs of the Congress. BJP is creating public opinion against possible witch hunting.

You mentioned the NIA. There is reason, very good reason, to believe that the supposed extract from their report is a forgery. It is difficult to understand your misgivings about them.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/centra...i-cleared-ishrat-murder-15.html#ixzz2YJuUiUek

How do you know? Where is the evidence?

It is not only the NIA documents. FBI transcripts of Hedley's interrogation mention Ishrat Jahan as an LeT operative in even greater details.

The same applies to your unexplained remarks about the Home Ministry. How is it concerned in this matter? Could you spell it out? Neither the rogue action by the IB officer nor the initiation of the CBI in this case had anything to do with them.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/centra...i-cleared-ishrat-murder-15.html#ixzz2YJvEYZPH

The Home Ministry is the Nodal Ministry for the IB. All IB reports are shared with the Home Minister, The Prime Minister and the National Security Adviser. The Home Ministry not only receives, but may also decide as to what action, if any, is to be taken on IB inputs. There is Zero possibility that the inputs regarding an LeT module was not informed to the PM, HM and National Security Adviser. Similarly, there is no possibility that the Home Ministry did not know, or had not approved, the plan to eliminate the terrorists.

 

[Soumitra]

Those who are crying crocodile tears for Ishrat just tell me one thing, why her?

Why pick up a random college student from Mumbra ? Is the Gujarat police so velli that they don't have any other work to do

 

[Omtatsat]

Are you not being disingenuous?





The CBI had no access to IB sources. Nobody has access to IB sources except as the IB shares it with others, particularly with Military, Naval and Air intelligence (the last a very rare occurrence). Why, by the way, should the CBI have had access to IB sources in the first place, unless you are one of those laboring under the delusion that suspicion of terrorism, or even established links to terrorists permits supersession of the law and the entire judicial process? As you yourself have pointed out the judiciary has taken the view that it does not matter what the status of the accused was; that applies to some future extension of the charge sheet to the IB officer as well.

So how then is the MSM and the CBI trying to create an impression that these LeT terrorists were actually innocent persons . Why is the CBI silent on mens rea which is a fundamental requirement for any criminal charge. Do they not know that if the criminal intention is not stated, the charge will fall flat on the first day. Are they trying to say that these persons were shot at for no reason at all.

Finally, it may dismay you, but it encourages me to believe that the days of arbitrary police action are waning; what was accepted a few years ago is no longer acceptable now.

Terrorists are an exception

That is on precisely the same plane as the recent agitations in which the middle classes participated so aggressively. If they are sensitized today to corruption, which is ancient and rooted in our society, why are you surprised that they have reacted to this? It is that public sense of outrage across all communities that gives the case a life of its own, not your mysterious behind the scene actions. How did you learn about them, by the way, was it through the application of inductive logic?

So, if you are so sure of Middle Class support, why dont you try organizing a few protests in support of the terrorists. Unlike you, the middle class can make a distinction between corruption and terrorism

Again, a total misreading and a total failure of comprehension.

It is nobody's case that the IB erred in passing on information to the state police. That is exactly what they are paid to do. The issue arose of criminal culpability when one of the Gujarat Police officers stated during his interrogation that the IB officer, and perhaps several of his subordinates, participated in the events that followed, the abduction, the illegal detention, the murders. Is it your case that this criminal behaviour should also go unchallenged?

It is likely a joint Gujarat Police - IB operation conducted with full knowledge of the PM, HM, National Security Advisor and the CM and HM of Gujarat. Acts done in good faith do not attract criminal liability

 

[Joe Shearer]

Please ask that to your friends in the MSM. Why is the entire biased media engaged in propagating 2 falsehoods:

1. That Ishrat Jahan and her companions were not LeT operatives, but innocent persons;

2. That The Gujarat Government CM and HM entered into a criminal conspiracy with certain officials of the IB for murdering innocent Muslims.

Neither of these is the judicial case, so who is interested in raking it up other than the BJP?

It is simply a defensive reaction to the falsehood perpetrated by the Anti national MSM and Congress

Again, both sides are engaged in a political campaign of smear and counter-smear. It is laughable to insist that the whole world is out of step with one single entity. That is what the BJP and the Sangh Parivar would have us believe.

In what way does it concern those of us who want justice?

Unlike you, all sane persons can anticipate the sinister designs of the Congress. BJP is creating public opinion against possible witch hunting.

At last the truth pops out. It is not an existing media campaign, it is not a Congress-initiated witch hunt in the present, it is the very real fear of the Modi faction that their hero may be in the dock before long.

How do you know? Where is the evidence?

Already public. Will be posted to PDF around noon.

It is not only the NIA documents. FBI transcripts of Hedley's interrogation mention Ishrat Jahan as an LeT operative in even greater details.

LOL

Ishrat Jahan's character and political or terrorist connections were never a factor in the case. However, it is the BJP that is trying to drag a red herring across the trail by claiming that all the four were equally deeply implicated. The NIA's report is suspect. I do not know about the FBI transcripts, but how they affect the case is not clear.

The Home Ministry is the Nodal Ministry for the IB. All IB reports are shared with the Home Minister, The Prime Minister and the National Security Adviser. The Home Ministry not only receives, but may also decide as to what action, if any, is to be taken on IB inputs. There is Zero possibility that the inputs regarding an LeT module was not informed to the PM, HM and National Security Adviser. Similarly, there is no possibility that the Home Ministry did not know, or had not approved, the plan to eliminate the terrorists.

It is the core of a possible criminal case against Rajinder Kumar that he had exceeded his powers and responsibilities and colluded with the Gujarat Police.

Is it now seriously being suggested that when an IB officer set out to break the law, he informed the Home Ministry, and the Home Minister? This is beginning to sound like a bad farce, as the BJP's case sinks steadily in the water, its claque begins to scour the bottom of the barrel for plausible deniability.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Those who are crying crocodile tears for Ishrat just tell me one thing, why her?

Why pick up a random college student from Mumbra ? Is the Gujarat police so velli that they don't have any other work to do

That is neither here nor there. If they had not picked up and detained those victims, there is no case, and they have nothing to worry about. If they had picked up and detained those victims, and shot them while they were in custody, there is a case, and they will answer for it in court. What does it matter how busy or how jobless they were?

 

[KS]

Two pieces by Shekar Gupta and Praveen Swami in the IE and Firstpost respectively provide a well-researched and well-crafted view on the ethics and efficacy of India's encounter politics.

Any Indian, sane,logical and rooted in reality , irrespective of his party affliations would understand it. The usual suspects still would disagree and hide their hatred for one man behind a veneer of morality and make a hoopla about it, but lets hope the message reaches the broader audience.

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Body politics - Indian Express

Ishrat Jahan and the ethics of India

For five decades and more, extra-judicial means have been key to the Indian security system’s way of fighting not just terrorism, but every kind of serious crime. It happened because police forces simply didn’t have the numbers, resources or technologies needed to bring about prosecutions—and because the public demanded order. It’s led, just as J. told me that day, to a casualisation of police attitudes to investigation, to the rule of law, and life itself: why bother spending months digging for evidence, when you can settle the case with a bullet?

Little I’ve seen, though, leads me to believe police or intelligence officers mainly do what they do for personal enrichment or political expediency: indeed, police officers who’ve spent their lives fighting insurgencies tend, in my experience, to be living less well than the ones well-connected enough to have had successful careers in traffic management.

They do what they do, mostly, because in the Republic we have, as opposed to the one we’d like to have, you often have to chose between law or order.

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Please do read it and try to see the bigger picture instead of petty political point scoring.

 

[dravidianhero]

Let it go man, you know that is not the opinion most of us here & in India generally share, why worry about what some chap with a pronounced bias says? You are wasting your time.

a majority of indians feel muslims are desha drohis and indeed they are.there might be few gud desh bhakt here and there but they are negligible in number.ppl like bangalore joe shearer etc shld go into the real india and watch around rather than sitting infront of pc and makingliberal statmnts

 

[Soumitra]

That is neither here nor there. If they had not picked up and detained those victims, there is no case, and they have nothing to worry about. If they had picked up and detained those victims, and shot them while they were in custody, there is a case, and they will answer for it in court. What does it matter how busy or how jobless they were?

Ok let me just say for one minute that it was a fake encounter and she is innocent. Why did the police pick her in particular ? What is so special about her

 

[Joe Shearer]

So how then is the MSM and the CBI trying to create an impression that these LeT terrorists were actually innocent persons . Why is the CBI silent on mens rea which is a fundamental requirement for any criminal charge. Do they not know that if the criminal intention is not stated, the charge will fall flat on the first day. Are they trying to say that these persons were shot at for no reason at all.

How is the CBI trying to create any impression about the four being LeT terrorists or not? That has never come up, except in the laboured explanations that the Sangh Parivar is busy with. The CBI case is simple. Four people were detained, on IB information received. These four were killed while in detention. End. Where does the terrorist element come in?

As for mens rea, criminal intent is amply recorded in the interrogation of the Gujarat Police officers and men.

Terrorists are an exception

Tell that to the judge. Good luck.

So, if you are so sure of Middle Class support, why dont you try organizing a few protests in support of the terrorists. Unlike you, the middle class can make a distinction between corruption and terrorism

Oh, I am sure that the middle class is smarter than that. And it is interesting that the demonstration or, even better, a mob on the rampage, or the street fight is the only possible mode of political expression for the Sangh Parivar. It has long since abandoned any pretence to commitment to Parliament.

It is likely a joint Gujarat Police - IB operation conducted with full knowledge of the PM, HM, National Security Advisor and the CM and HM of Gujarat. Acts done in good faith do not attract criminal liability

Really?

And who told you that? Tom Clancy? There was just one rogue DD SIB involved, and if there is concrete evidence against him, you will hear about it.

 

[Omtatsat]

Neither of these is the judicial case, so who is interested in raking it up other than the BJP?

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=262386#ixzz2YK8E0U3n

The MSM. Dont you ever watch TV?

In what way does it concern those of us who want justice?

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=262386#ixzz2YK8NxZX9

Fitting justice has already been delivered. Why does your heart bleed so profusely for the terrorists?

At last the truth pops out. It is not an existing media campaign, it is not a Congress-initiated witch hunt in the present, it is the very real fear of the Modi faction that their hero may be in the dock before long.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=262386#ixzz2YK8kt4lq

Unlike you, political parties do not operate out of ivory towers. It is their job to manage public perception and to anticipate and manage possible inconveniences. In any case, the entire episode has been to their advantage as the general public is disgusted by the witch hunt against those who have removed a terrorist threat.

shrat Jahan's character and political or terrorist connections were never a factor in the case. However, it is the BJP that is trying to drag a red herring across the trail by claiming that all the four were equally deeply implicated.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=262386#ixzz2YK9nPm19

It is not the BJP which says this. IB, FBI and NIA inputs leave no doubt that she was aterrorist.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Two pieces by Shekar Gupta and Praveen Swami in the IE and Firstpost respectively provide a well-researched and well-crafted view on the ethics and efficacy of India's encounter politics.

Any Indian, sane,logical and rooted in reality , irrespective of his party affliations would understand it. The usual suspects still would disagree and hide their hatred for one man behind a veneer of morality and make a hoopla about it, but lets hope the message reaches the broader audience.

-----

Body politics - Indian Express

Ishrat Jahan and the ethics of India



------

Please do read it and try to see the bigger picture instead of petty political point scoring.

An excellent piece, and illustrates the dilemma of the honest police officer. Unfortunately, he is inexorably bound to the law of the land. If he occasionally sacrifices law at the altar of order, if he is detected, he has to pay the price.

The petty point scoring is entirely by the scumbag politicians of all descriptions.

Ok let me just say for one minute that it was a fake encounter and she is innocent. Why did the police pick her in particular ? What is so special about her

What is under judicial examination is a murder, not what her background was. Is it very difficult for this to penetrate? Have you not read sufficient judgements in this regard? Or similar, with parallel contexts? You may be tainted, besmirched, fouled, but you still have your rights. You still cannot be murdered.

 

[Omtatsat]

As for mens rea, criminal intent is amply recorded in the interrogation of the Gujarat Police officers and men.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=262386#ixzz2YKAfdWM2

Criminal intent is not Mens Rea, Mr Lawyer. Do you even know the basics of Indian criminal law? No charge can be sustained unless a reasonable mens rea is proved. So why did the GP and IB enter into a criminal conspiracy and common criminal intent to kill these persons? Were they just homicidal maniacs out to satisfy their blood lust. And why is the CBI so carefully skirting the issue. The HC has only directed that the background of the killed need not be relevant. It never prevented the CBI from disclosing the mens rea.

And who told you that? Tom Clancy? There was just one rogue DD SIB involved, and if there is concrete evidence against him, you will hear about it.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=262386#ixzz2YKBz1vR0

Proves again that you know nothing about government functioning inspite of your fake claims of "Defense Connections"

 

[KS]

If he occasionally sacrifices law at the altar of order, if he is detected, he has to pay the price.

I dont know, but people like me, the cattle class, who are almost always the prime victims in these terrorist events dont think so. We have enough problems in our life and dont have time for sympathizing with terrorists or how they died. That they died is enough for us. But yeah in case an innocent was killed, those who did it need to be held accountable. I hope they start that process from the first known such case instead of a random year 2004 and forget everything before or after it.

The petty point scoring is entirely by the scumbag politicians of all descriptions.

Not entirely. We have enough ivory tower residents, those who are disconnected from reality, party partisans who value political point scoring over national security too who indulge in it.

 

[Joe Shearer]

The MSM. Dont you ever watch TV?

There was always this suspicion that some of us draw our views from the most shallow of sources, and come to conclusions based on the most shallow of sources. It is nice to have confirmation.

Fitting justice has already been delivered. Why does your heart bleed so profusely for the terrorists?

Not for terrorists, who should have been tried and sentenced. For victims of murder.

If justice had been delivered, why did the Gujarat Police ask for CBI intervention?

Unlike you, political parties do not operate out of ivory towers. It is their job to manage public perception and to anticipate and manage possible inconveniences. In any case, the entire episode has been to their advantage as the general public is disgusted by the witch hunt against those who have removed a terrorist threat.

I acknowledge that political parties operate out of the opposite of ivory towers. I am surprised, however, that you should draw attention to your operating out of drains and sewers.

I agree that to be tried for murder would be very, very inconvenient for a person who fancies himself as prime ministerial material.

It is not the BJP which says this. IB, FBI and NIA inputs leave no doubt that she was aterrorist.

Who is arguing for or against that proposition, other than the BJP?

Criminal intent is not Mens Rea, Mr Lawyer. Do you even know the basics of Indian criminal law? No charge can be sustained unless a reasonable mens rea is proved. So why did the GP and IB enter into a criminal conspiracy and common criminal intent to kill these persons? Were they just homicidal maniacs out to satisfy their blood lust. And why is the CBI so carefully skirting the issue. The HC has only directed that the background of the killed need not be relevant. It never prevented the CBI from disclosing the mens rea.

It does not have to be revealed in the charge sheet, Mr. Legal Analyst.

Proves again that you know nothing about government functioning inspite of your fake claims of "Defense Connections"

I am on visiting terms with two former Directors of the IB, one of whom was National Security Advisor, leaving aside my Defence Connections for a moment. And you? What do you do for a living, by the way? Since once again you have raised the question of my background and connections? You have shied away from that consistently. What are you hiding?