MODI cleared Ishrat Murder

[KS]

Criminal intent is not Mens Rea, Mr Lawyer. Do you even know the basics of Indian criminal law? No charge can be sustained unless a reasonable mens rea is proved. So why did the GP and IB enter into a criminal conspiracy and common criminal intent to kill these persons? Were they just homicidal maniacs out to satisfy their blood lust. And why is the CBI so carefully skirting the issue. The HC has only directed that the background of the killed need not be relevant. It never prevented the CBI from disclosing the mens rea.

Excellent point..amdst all the din, the question of the "motive" has nver ever been discussed.

Two points stick out like sore thumb in this political witchhunt

1) Whats the motive of this whole "conspiracy" ?
2) Why Ishrat ?

With my limited understanding of judicial process, shouldnt these two have a satisfactory explanation for the conviction to stick ?

But then I guess the Congress doesnt even want a conviction - it just wants to raise enough muck, play a game of smoke and mirrors, feed into the muslim paranoia about Modi and secure the votes. Disgusting political games.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I dont know, but people like me, the cattle class, who are almost always the prime victims in these terrorist events dont think so. We have enough problems in our life and dont have time for sympathizing with terrorists or how they died. That they died is enough for us. But yeah in case an innocent was killed, those who did it need to be held accountable. I hope they start that process from the first known such case instead of a random year 2004 and forget everything before or after it.

Do I have to remind you brutally? You do not administer the law. What you think is of no consequence unless the CrPC is altered, and unless the statutes are amended. Whether you have time for sympathising with terrorists is of no consequence to the courts of law.

Sad but true. They don't want to know what @KS thinks about the law, or how it is administered.

As for the rest, it has to start somewhere. Having started, it has to spread. Trying to divert attention from this by pointing to earlier outrages is silly. I suspect you know it as well.

Not entirely. We have enough ivory tower residents, those who are disconnected from reality, party partisans who value political point scoring over national security too who indulge in it.

I don't know about others and can't speak for them but I am not a partisan of any of the political parties involved in this mudslinging outside the courts.

Excellent point..amdst all the din, the question of the "motive" has nver ever been discussed.

Two points stick out like sore thumb in this political witchhunt

1) Whats the motive of this whole "conspiracy" ?
2) Why Ishrat ?

With my limited understanding of judicial process, shouldnt these two have a satisfactory explanation for the conviction to stick ?

But then I guess the Congress doesnt even want a conviction - it just wants to raise enough muck, play a game of smoke and mirrors, feed into the muslim paranoia about Modi and secure the votes. Disgusting political games.

You may not have been reading the papers or watching TV. There are other cases of this identical description already against the Vanzara clique. They have had a track record of murdering apparent terrorists, and the reasons given there are identical to the reasons for these murders.

Why the impatience? It is a question of a few more days, when, if what you are fervently pleading for is upheld by the court, your heros will walk free. Why are we trying it in PDF?

 

[KS]

Do I have to remind you brutally? You do not administer the law. What you think is of no consequence unless the CrPC is altered, and unless the statutes are amended. Whether you have time for sympathising with terrorists is of no consequence to the courts of law.

Sad but true. They don't want to know what @KS thinks about the law, or how it is administered.

As for the rest, it has to start somewhere. Having started, it has to spread. Trying to divert attention from this by pointing to earlier outrages is silly. I suspect you know it as well.

Law is there to serve the people..not the reverse. I believe in that. I also believe the existing law is not enough to deal with complex problems like terrorism. If you dont, that's your problem. But irrespective what the "law" says in theory, I cant in my good conscience sympathize with terrorists who are out to kill civilians and I am entirely justified in doing that. They (the lashkar terrorists) came to kill and got killed. Real world justice.

And lets cuts the bullshit on two counts, shall we ? Firstly, both you and I know that this case has nothing to do with rule of law, judicial integrity or whatever fancy terms you throw in. Its a text book case of political witch hunt where the ultimate aim is the throwing muck on one man and one man alone as much as possible to herd the muslim vote in the upcoming general elections. You may not agree publicly here but deep down your heart you know that is true. Second, encounters are a fact of life when dealing with terrorists, not only in Gujarat, not only in India, but all over the world. My point - just dont try to insult anyone's intelligence pretending not to see those two glaring issues.

I don't know about others and can't speak for them but I am not a partisan of any of the political parties involved in this mudslinging outside the courts.

Yeah right.

 

[Omtatsat]

here was always this suspicion that some of us draw our views from the most shallow of sources, and come to conclusions based on the most shallow of sources. It is nice to have confirmation.

So from where do you get your news? The local adda rumor factory??

Oh! Sorry! I forgot that the National Security Adviser briefs you personally every evening

It does not have to be revealed in the charge sheet, Mr. Legal Analyst.

No. It has to be conveyed to the court through sign language, or through smoke signals.

I am on visiting terms with two former Directors of the IB, one of whom was National Security Advisor, leaving aside my Defence Connections for a moment.

More name dropping. Your psychological profile is now very clear.

So these directors told you that individual IB officials need not share their inputs with the Department/Ministry before passing it to states?

There are other cases of this identical description already against the Vanzara clique. They have had a track record of murdering apparent terrorists, and the reasons given there are identical to the reasons for these murders.

Prior conduct is not relevant in criminal trials. In any case none of these cases have been proved so far.

Know CBI's conviction rate ? leass than 1%.

 

[jbond197]

a majority of indians feel muslims are desha drohis and indeed they are.there might be few gud desh bhakt here and there but they are negligible in number.ppl like bangalore joe shearer etc shld go into the real india and watch around rather than sitting infront of pc and makingliberal statmnts

You are assuming too much I guess may be because of Owaisi effect. This is I am sad to say is very extremist line of thinking. There are good people as well as bad people in all religions so you can not generalize. I read news about many Hindus who turned traitor and sold many a military secrets to enemies for money there are many a cases in our history also. So there is no way a religion can get you a patriot tag and another traitor. There are sell outs everywhere and easy money is a big factor in turning one into a traitor.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Law is there to serve the people..not the reverse. I believe in that. I also believe the existing law is not enough to deal with complex problems like terrorism. If you dont, that's your problem. But irrespective what the "law" says in theory, I cant in my good conscience sympathize with terrorists who are out to kill civilians and I am entirely justified in doing that. They (the lashkar terrorists) came to kill and got killed. Real world justice.

Nobody is asking you to 'sympathise' with terrorism, nor need you stoop to such depths as to suggest that asking for the law to be administered by those who are paid to serve the people, the police, is equivalent to sympathising with terrorism.

That is a cheap shot that the Sangh Parivar has been making, inside this forum and in every available forum; it is for each of them to decide whether they need to be part of that dirty ploy. I am glad that you have made your choice and made it public.

And lets cuts the bullshit on two counts, shall we ? Firstly, both you and I know that this case has nothing to do with rule of law, judicial integrity or whatever fancy terms you throw in.

As far as I am concerned, it has everything to do with rule of law, the integrity of the judicial process (not the integrity of the judiciary, as your ill-chosen words imply) and nothing to do with the fancy terms that the Sangh Parivar keeps putting up in unsuccessful defence.

Its a text book case of political witch hunt where the ultimate aim is the throwing muck on one man and one man alone as much as possible to herd the muslim vote in the upcoming general elections. You may not agree publicly here but deep down your heart you know that is true.

On the contrary, I see it as a tipping point, and I hope that just as corruption came under scrutiny with the Anna Hazare wave, human rights will come into focus with this case. Not everyone is a political animal, or a hatchet man for a political party, and not everyone would like to descend to the depths to which you have chosen to descend.

Second, encounters are a fact of life when dealing with terrorists, not only in Gujarat, not only in India, but all over the world. My point - just dont try to insult anyone's intelligence pretending not to see those two glaring issues.

They are, and they need to be eliminated, the attitude and mental state that gives rise to them needs to be addressed squarely and fought. That others are guilty of the same crime is no defence. Your pet lawyers should tell you that much.

Yeah right.

I am glad that you understand it after years of having it hammered into you.

 

[Soumitra]

What is under judicial examination is a murder, not what her background was. Is it very difficult for this to penetrate? Have you not read sufficient judgements in this regard? Or similar, with parallel contexts? You may be tainted, besmirched, fouled, but you still have your rights. You still cannot be murdered.

I am also talking about murder. Why was she murdered? What's so special about her?

 

[Omtatsat]

You are assuming too much I guess may be because of Owaisi effect. This is I am sad to say is very extremist line of thinking. There are good people as well as bad people in all religions so you can not generalize. I read news about many Hindus who turned traitor and sold many a military secrets to enemies for money there are many a cases in our history also. So there is no way a religion can get you a patriot tag and another traitor. There are sell outs everywhere and easy money is a big factor in turning one into a traitor.

It is not the Owaisi effect for that is only a symptom. An outwardly manifestation of what lies beneath the surface. The issues are much deeper.

 

[KS]

Nobody is asking you to 'sympathise' with terrorism, nor need you stoop to such depths as to suggest that asking for the law to be administered by those who are paid to serve the people, the police, is equivalent to sympathising with terrorism.

That is a cheap shot that the Sangh Parivar has been making, inside this forum and in every available forum; it is for each of them to decide whether they need to be part of that dirty ploy. I am glad that you have made your choice and made it public.

As far as I am concerned, it has everything to do with rule of law, the integrity of the judicial process (not the integrity of the judiciary, as your ill-chosen words imply) and nothing to do with the fancy terms that the Sangh Parivar keeps putting up in unsuccessful defence.

On the contrary, I see it as a tipping point, and I hope that just as corruption came under scrutiny with the Anna Hazare wave, human rights will come into focus with this case. Not everyone is a political animal, or a hatchet man for a political party, and not everyone would like to descend to the depths to which you have chosen to descend.

They are, and they need to be eliminated, the attitude and mental state that gives rise to them needs to be addressed squarely and fought. That others are guilty of the same crime is no defence. Your pet lawyers should tell you that much.

Whatever. I guess I have made my point pretty clear and there is no need to go in circles nor there is anything I need to prove to you. As I said there is no need for the whole "i-just-want-the-law" rhetoric since we both know this case transcends that and enter the political realm. Ultimately both you and I have the same amount of stake in this democracy - one vote and I know who I am going to vote. And just dont, DONT, for a second think that tactics like branding everyone of the opposing your pov as sangh parivar (guess you still havent understood that most people dont see that as an issue) or cheap shots like "your pet lawyers" wins you the interwebz. It doesnt.

I am glad that you understand it after years of having it hammered into you.

Yeah right. Please feel good about yourself.

 

[Sankranthi]

You are assuming too much I guess may be because of Owaisi effect. This is I am sad to say is very extremist line of thinking. There are good people as well as bad people in all religions so you can not generalize. I read news about many Hindus who turned traitor and sold many a military secrets to enemies for money there are many a cases in our history also. So there is no way a religion can get you a patriot tag and another traitor. There are sell outs everywhere and easy money is a big factor in turning one into a traitor.

Difference being Hindu traitors sell it for money.

Muslim traitors usually do it in the name of their religion.

Now you can very well say what is the difference since both of them sell country secrets. The difference being there are other muslims who also do it for money.

Dawood Ibrahim is a classic high profile case that will show you how apparently 'secular' muslims who's only motive was to make money by hook or by crook became international terrorists after they decide to bomb Mumbai after Babri Masjid demolition.

I take his name because he is high profile ...but there are hundreds of others who's name you dont know but who are 'secular' till the time comes to bomb India and fight for the muslim cause.

 

[Joe Shearer]

So from where do you get your news? The local adda rumor factory??

Oh! Sorry! I forgot that the National Security Adviser briefs you personally every evening

Not really, but I am very well connected to police sources. These issues are being hotly discussed all over the country, not just in PDF. And the NSA does not brief me, I don't know him, he is from the IFS, but I certainly have access to another who has held that position, and I know his very carefully expressed, very guarded views.

No. It has to be conveyed to the court through sign language, or through smoke signals.

You should be delighted if it is not established. Why such frenzy?

More name dropping. Your psychological profile is now very clear.

As I said, everyone knows who I am and what I did. Who are you? What shameful information do you wish to conceal?

So these directors told you that individual IB officials need not share their inputs with the Department/Ministry before passing it to states?

This information comes to the SIBs on occasion, they generate it on occasion. In this case, the SIB in question was given the information, checked the movements of the parties in question. Since you are clearly ignorant of the organisation of the IB, there are state-wise Subsidiary Information Bureaus, headed by a Deputy Director, sometimes, exceptionally, by a Joint Director. They have a further organisation under them, going right down to the grassroots level.

A huge volume of data is generated by them, and by the states' own Intelligence Bureaux. For instance, in Bengal, there is an SIB belonging to the IB, and a separate state-run IB under the Home Secretary (although the DGP and IG is the head of the cadre, he is not entitled to receive reports from the IG IB, nor does he write the confidential report of that officer).

Not all of this volume of data goes to the political leadership. Only selected bits summarised and digested are put up for information. It is very, very rare that information of this sort would be put up.

What cannot have been put up is any intention of a rogue officer to intervene. It is impossible that Rajinder Kumar should have informed the Director, or the Home Minister, or the Prime Minister of his intention to participate in a murder.

[quote}Prior conduct is not relevant in criminal trials. In any case none of these cases have been proved so far.[/quote]

The point was that mens rea has been established in preliminary hearings. Not that the case has or has not been proved. The point was that an identical mens rea only need be provided. No prior conduct is implied, only that the same mens rea is likely to be quoted.

Know CBI's conviction rate ? leass than 1%.

Consoling yourself? If that is so, why all the foaming at the mouth?

Whatever. I guess I have made my point pretty clear and there is no need to go in circles nor there is anything I need to prove to you. As I said there is no need for the whole "i-just-want-the-law" rhetoric since we both know this case transcends that and enter the political realm. Ultimately both you and I have the same amount of stake in this democracy - one vote and I know who I am going to vote. And just dont, DONT, for a second think that tactics like branding everyone of the opposing your pov as sangh parivar (guess you still havent understood that most people dont see that as an issue) or cheap shots like "your pet lawyers" wins you the interwebz. It doesnt.

It doesn't have to win the interwebz, which only you and your pack-mates are contesting. It just has to drop the poll results of the communal faction by a few more seats. Dropping the corrupt Congress is a different battle.

Yeah right. Please feel good about yourself.

I do. Quite honestly. Rather unlike the hatred and bile coming out of the pack of rabid dogs milling about.

 

[KS]

The BJP need to take this case to the public since everything ultimately boils down to that.

I heard posters like these have sprung up in some parts of Delhi. They need to spring up all over the heartland and the message that patriotic police officers and IB are being hounded for serving the public, at the behest of the Congress, needs to be driven forcefully.

The Congress and its media/intellectual allies have still not decoded the reason behind the Modi phenomenon. The more stones thrown at him, the more he uses them to build his stairway. That should be utilized.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I am also talking about murder. Why was she murdered? What's so special about her?

Nothing at all. She - they - were just convenient victims and ammunition to build a case. But wait for the trial. Or read the transcripts of the other murder trial, the Sohrabuddin case.

 

[KS]

It doesn't have to win the interwebz, which only you and your pack-mates are contesting. It just has to drop the poll results of the communal faction by a few more seats. Dropping the corrupt Congress is a different battle.

Good carry on the e-jehad.

And "communal faction"..Guess congress is secular then. And you want the folks to believe you are above party partisanship

I do. Quite honestly. Rather unlike the hatred and bile coming out of the pack of rabid dogs milling about.

Ofcourse. Everyone feels good about himself. Nothing wrong in that. Even Don Quixote felt his mission important.

 

[Joe Shearer]

The BJP need to take this case to the public since everything ultimately boils down to that.

I heard posters like these have sprung up in some parts of Delhi. They need to spring up all over the heartland and the message that patriotic police officers and IB are being hounded for serving the public at the behest of the Congress needs to be driven forcefully.

The Congress and its media/intellectual allies have still not decoded the reason behind the Modi phenomenon. The more stones thrown at him, the more he uses them to build his stairway. That should be utilized.

Who cares about the Congress? The people who want a decent, just society certainly have little or no truck with the Congress. And everyone has decoded the Modi phenomenon. He should stop seeing staircases and ponder over the children's game, Snakes and Ladders.