MMRCA Tamasha was Political: Ex IAF Official

[he-man]

It was in 1999 after end of Kargil war with Pakistan, when Indian air force decided to procure 126 more French build Mirage 2000s after the aircraft performed exceptionally well in the mountainous terrain of Kargil . It’s been 14 years now after Kargil war but Indian air force is still waiting for a deal for purchase of new fighter.

Idrw.org Recently spoke to Retired IAF Official who didn’t wanted to be named, who said that “Due to Political reasons whole deal dragged on for years “he also told that “It was Political decision to make it multi-vendor competition, IAF knew exactly what it wanted and it was Upgraded Mirage-2000s then but later allowing American companies for bidding was also a mistake since IAF always knew their aircrafts (F-16 and F-18SH) will never fit out requirements.

According to retired official ‘ opening up and inviting American companies for bidding lead to further delays since multi-vendor proposals had to be gone through in details and aircraft’s testing of additional aircraft’s had to been carried out , it was lengthy process which could have been avoided but just sake for transparency from political masters , IAF had to go through whole ordeal which has seriously effected its current fleet strength which has been going south due to retirements of older Migs .

Throwing some light into current negotiation with French for Purchase of 126 Rafale jets, Official said that it was due to French stubbornness we are still Negotiating the deal and it will take few more months before the deal is signed between the two parties, French for better part of last year have been trying hard to tell us how due to our inability to absorb Transfer of technology shouldn’t seek transfer of core technology of Rafale aircraft , literally backing off from submitted proposal by them , He also mentioned that he is not aware of current status of the deal but he strongly believes that there might be deviation in Transfer of Technology between two parties


source

MMRCA Tamasha was Political: Ex IAF Official | idrw.org

last paragraph once again highlights the fact that french are still not willing to part with the tot

 

[[Bregs]]

Bargaining power and stubbornness of french will decrease by the time and they must be aware that India has contingency plans in place if deal fell through and the net looser will be french

 

[he-man]

Bargaining power and stubbornness of french will decrease by the time and they must be aware that India has contingency plans in place if deal fell through and the net looser will be french

my only fear is kickbacks,,,,i don't want india to drop demand for tot under any condition.

if french don't agree,so be it................we move on and sign some other deal as soon as possible.

 

[Echo_419]

If the French are unwilling go for Mig-35 or Euro fighter
Euro Fighter has added benignity that Brits won't rant or Btich against us anymore

 

[IndoUS]

Even though personally I feel that the deal has been dragged out. I also believe that we are doing alright with the negotiations. The Rafale is a great aircraft and is the best in the Race for the tender. It would be a real shame if the deal is to fall through. I feel that the whole Eurofighter thing is a bit too risky with it being a consortium, and that we already operate too many Russian origin aircraft. Don't get me wrong I am a die hard fan of Russian aircrafts it is just that with the future purchase of FGFA which will surely be a lot. I feel it will a better for us to have a second option.

 

[[Bregs]]

my only fear is kickbacks,,,,i don't want india to drop demand for tot under any condition.

if french don't agree,so be it................we move on and sign some other deal as soon as possible.

Some vested interest (Competitors) in order to block this deal may ruin this deal by alleging kickbacks but so far objections by yahswant sinha and other regional party MP have been thoroughly addressed without any signs of kickbacks

 

[sancho]

They do want to transfer of technology, they only want to decide what and to whom. The issue as reported is the part they might have to give to HAL, while they are ready to provide ToT (most likely of less importance) to their partner Reliance, which doesn't bother about critical ToT, as long as the workshare increases and more profit can be made. That's the problem with privat companies that doesn't have a strategic benefit in mind.
However, that is simple business negotiation and sooner or later they will come to a conclusion, the only silly part is, that Dassault is underestimating again that elections could change anything and that they might lose their advantages like they did in Brazil.

On the article, it's nothing new actually that the twist to M-MRCA or a competitions was a political decision and for sure the right one. Simply going for additional Mirage fighters in a single vendor procurement, would mean high unit costs, since you hardly have anything to bargain and low benefits of offsets and ToT. That's exactly where Dassault had to offer far more, in competition to the US fighters and the EF (we btw see the same at negotiations with the French on Kaveri / Snecma or Shakti engine for LUH too). The negotiations are not easy, but there is hardly a doubt that anybody else would offer a better industrial and technical package and that's why the French are prefered when it comes to licence productions or co-developments. Sadly they don't see how much benefits they could have with us, if they would see us more as a (minor) partner, than as an export customer, hopefully the future might change that.

 

[he-man]

They do want to transfer of technology, they only want to decide what and to whom. The issue as reported is the part they might have to give to HAL, while they are ready to provide ToT (most likely of less importance) to their partner Reliance, which doesn't bother about critical ToT, as long as the workshare increases and more profit can be made. That's the problem with privat companies that doesn't have a strategic benefit in mind.
However, that is simple business negotiation and sooner or later they will come to a conclusion, the only silly part is, that Dassault is underestimating again that elections could change anything and that they might lose their advantages like they did in Brazil.

On the article, it's nothing new actually that the twist to M-MRCA or a competitions was a political decision and for sure the right one. Simply going for additional Mirage fighters in a single vendor procurement, would mean high unit costs, since you hardly have anything to bargain and low benefits of offsets and ToT. That's exactly where Dassault had to offer far more, in competition to the US fighters and the EF (we btw see the same at negotiations with the French on Kaveri / Snecma or Shakti engine for LUH too). The negotiations are not easy, but there is hardly a doubt that anybody else would offer a better industrial and technical package and that's why the French are prefered when it comes to licence productions or co-developments. Sadly they don't see how much benefits they could have with us, if they would see us more as a (minor) partner, than as an export customer, hopefully the future might change that.

u are right.yashwant sinha was against this deal and he levelled charges of kickbacks too.
next govt most probably will be nda so french are actually playing with fire,who knows what will happen to deal once new govt comes??
on a diff topic i think giving contract to reliance will not be a bad thing at all,,,,at least they have the money and muscle to enter the game and challenge hal monopoly!!

 

[duhastmish]

Let's scrap this stupid deal go for pakfa or order more su30 for now get as many Tejas you can and spend time and energy on next amca with involvement from private industry lobby

Came across a long list friend who fly jaguar for IAF at jam nagar . He is pissed at whole concept of twin pilot. The split decision is just not worth it he said. And of course they would prefer American hardware but agree it's not in country's interest.

 

[Imran Khan]

well as we don't know ? since day one it was bad idea but your guys here ranting us day night if we say so now your own officers saying it .

 

[he-man]

well as we don't know ? since day one it was bad idea but your guys here ranting us day night if we say so now your own officers saying it .

we are talking on technical aspects of deal here.

as far as rafale is concerned it is so capable that pakistan won't get a bird like this in next 20 years

 

[duhastmish]

well as we don't know ? since day one it was bad idea but your guys here ranting us day night if we say so now your own officers saying it .

It might have been a bit feasible a few years back with economy on boom. Now it's again time to go back to drawing board.
Also the whole edge is gone once we took too much time to decide. Now it's like a juicy bone but stuck in throat.
Still mrca is for china front not pak

 

[he-man]

It might have been a bit feasible a few years back with economy on boom. Now it's again time to go back to drawing board.
Also the whole edge is gone once we took too much time to decide. Now it's like a juicy bone but stuck in throat.
Still mrca is for china front not pak

ideally i would want ist batch pakfa with product 117 engine which starts serial production in 2016-17 over this any day but it may not be possible to scrap deal now

 

[Imran Khan]

we are talking on technical aspects of deal here.

as far as rafale is concerned it is so capable that pakistan won't get a bird like this in next 20 years

yes asusual man pakistan will pakistan was pakistan not are you god ? in 2007 pakistan was 2nd growing economy of asia . we don't know whats in future please come out from pak phobia . 20 years before we were enjoying brand now F-16s 2nd nation in asia have these state of the art jets do you forget ? i even can't say 5 years after let 20 years . are not we bashing abut our god damn economy few years before ? same apply on india where is now super sonic speed economy ? pakistan will and sure have what she need to defend in future you have not to worry .

It might have been a bit feasible a few years back with economy on boom. Now it's again time to go back to drawing board.
Also the whole edge is gone once we took too much time to decide. Now it's like a juicy bone but stuck in throat.
Still mrca is for china front not pak

we are not talking abut whom and why here . we are talking abut idea of MMCA and deal itself why you indians can't post 5 posts without mention pak-chin ? mmrca is for war anybody whom attack india and pakistan is the one whom fight wars with india more then any other nation .

 

[he-man]

yes asusual man pakistan will pakistan was pakistan not are you god ? in 2007 pakistan was 2nd growing economy of asia . we don't know whats in future please come out from pak phobia . 20 years before we were enjoying brand now F-16s 2nd nation in asia have these state of the art jets do you forget ? i even can't say 5 years after let 20 years . are not we bashing abut our god damn economy few years before ? same apply on india where is now super sonic speed economy ? pakistan will and sure have what she need to defend in future you have not to worry .


we are not talking abut whom and why here . we are talking abut idea of MMCA and deal itself why you indians can't post 5 posts without mention pak-chin ? mmrca is for war anybody whom attack india and pakistan is the one whom fight wars with india more then any other nation .

state of the art f-16??
go and check the specs of ur f-16's
some are block 52 and the rest are being upgraded to block 40 standards and total 63 are there,lol
rafale and pakfa will come with aesa and su-30mki is also being upgraded to super sukhoi standard.
for ur f-16 upgraded mirage 2000 and new mig-29k and kub are probably an overkill.
don't boast about ur tiny airforce here