MMRCA: Self Goal by IAF?

[Sahasranama]

Wrong.
ATV project was initiated during Indiras time and it took around 30 years and still it is a TD.
Developing 4 nuke subs and raising squadrons of 126 indigenous fighters on par with Rafale have much difference.
Sanctions or no Sanctions developed countries having advanced fighter tech not gonna sell their tech to us even if we offer billions of dollars.
You are right.We need to fund it but if we wait for maturing of platforms squadrons of IAF will go down further and that is unacceptable

Marut was initiated during NEHRU's time. Where did that get us ? and Why ?

How come Indian Navy was successful ?

If no one is going to sell us advance fighter tech. why the Fcuk are we giving France 9 billion $ ? Its self contradictory.

If IAF screwed up you cannot expect the people of India to pay for that mistake in sweat and blood and not hold anyone accountable. First let the IAF hold their people accountable for this mess and THEN let them ask for our money.

 

[SrNair]

Marut was initiated during NEHRU's time. Where did that get us ? and Why ?

How come Indian Navy was successful ?

If no one is going to sell us advance fighter tech. why the Fcuk are we giving France 9 billion $ ? Its self contradictory.

If IAF screwed up you cannot expect the people of India to pay for that mistake in sweat and blood and not hold anyone accountable. First let the IAF hold their people accountable for this mess and THEN let them ask for our money.

IAF screwed nothing.I already told you who blocked that HF Marut.Except technical aspects IAF dont have any say in policy.
You have two choice . Sitting with 9 billions $ or pump it in LCA only less than half capable Rafale ,Or spend it to absorb most advanced fighter technlogy.One will cause downing of Squadrons level while other will give you necessary tech and fighters.

 

[Sahasranama]

First of all, it's complete idiotic to compare the acquisition policies of IAF and IN. IN had its fair chance on absorbing technology from foreign platforms via ToT, and they get to study the Charlie class extensively to build INS Arihant. While, DRDO was only limited to assemble and build selected part for their aircraft. Does Navy has any indigenous propulsion engine? Does our carriers have indigenous launcher and landing arresting gears? Does we even have our own CIWS? Without developing these critical components, even the indigenous remark on Navy has a blot on it.

Had RnD is as easy as pouring money, then I have all the reason to believe Qatar would have been the knowledge capital of the world, which it isn't, that should tell you something. Developing critical technology takes years, if not decades, MMRCA just provides another avenue to absorb the technology, without starting from scratch.

This is list of countries that spend on R&D as percentage of their GDP. Go look where Qatar and India is.

List of countries by research and development spending - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

IAF got to study ENTIRE generations of MIG, what did they do with that knowledge ?

Indian navy LM2500 propulsion engine is MADE IN INDIA under license.

For CIWS, AK-630 is MADE IN INDIA under license.

Even the blot you assume are not blot. That is why the IN is respected.

For absorbing technology we do not need MMRCA , we just need to contact those companies had ask our companies to pay money and get ToT.

IAF screwed nothing.I already told you who blocked that HF Marut.Except technical aspects IAF dont have any say in policy.
You have two choice . Sitting with 9 billions $ or pump it in LCA only less than half capable Rafale ,Or spend it to absorb most advanced fighter technlogy.One will cause downing of Squadrons level while other will give you necessary tech and fighters.

IAF had a big hand in killing Marut. Google it up. I am off to sleep.

If we pump in 9 Billion $ into LCA and AMCA rather than 1 billion $ spread over 15 years like we did for LCA, we will get a MUCH better aircraft than Rafale. Of that I am sure.

IAF will continue to blackmail India and India will capitulate to those blackmail like the soft state we are.

Past is past we need to think about future.Even if we give enormous subsidies and funding creating a private firm on par with Lockheed or Dassault would take decades

I AM talking about the future. If we continue on this path, it does not look too bright.

 

[Raul_AD]

LCA A.K.A Light combat aircraft is light weight fighter with limited Aerial Role in Comparison of Rafale which is omni-Role fighter and is in Different weight Class WE all Know who Is Amateur and Idiot here IS next you will say Iaf should go for LCA mk3 rather than FGFA

Dear Sir, Lets evaluate the range of our beloved Rafale - Here it goes!!!!!!!! 10,000Km from France to Reunion Island with 5 refuels. i.e. total six refueling starting with one initial ground refueling. Which is roughly 1700 KM OF RANGE.

Where as Tejas MK-I is concerned it itself is having flight endurance of about 2.5 hours. in IOC-2 Spec itself, without Central line fuel tank which is not certified till date pending for FOC. And Tejas MK-I having 500 Km of COMBAT RADIUS which is roughly 1/3 of Range. So the Range of Tejas MK-I is roughly 1500 Kms.For verification read the spacs in the picture below:

Why the Imported Air Force is going GAGA for Rafel should be investigated by CBI, CAG. The real delay and careless attitude of IAF has been very specifically made evident by OP.

Considering the BJP is funded by MNPs.. Shree Modi's own record as CM very capitalistic... I dont see the proof in your rather spirited defence.

You forget something about Modi, first yes he is a businessman but a very-very Shrewd Hindu Baniya. He will squeeze Last Drop of Juice from this MMRCA Deal from Desault, if it ever takes place.

 

[Trawllu]

first of all

IAF wanted to buy single engine plane to keep costs of operations lower and high availability rate

now they have thier needle stuck on Twin engine Rafale
with high purchae costs high operational costs and low availability

second we cant compare tejas to rafale in many areas simply because they are in different class (weight class)

but when we talk of functions to be done and roles to be carried out

we simply dont need rafale any more

we can simply order up more Su30MKI and Tejas Mk1 & Mk2 combo

which will keep our budgets under control, rapidly increase nos of fighters and sqads and MOST IMPORTANT perform all roles, and missions and give us all capabilities

 

[SQ8]

Dear Sir, Lets evaluate the range of our beloved Rafale - Here it goes!!!!!!!! 10,000Km from France to Reunion Island with 5 refuels. i.e. total six refueling starting with one initial ground refueling. Which is roughly 1700 KM OF RANGE.

Where as Tejas MK-I is concerned it itself is having flight endurance of about 2.5 hours. in IOC-2 Spec itself, without Central line fuel tank which is not certified till date pending for FOC. And Tejas MK-I having 500 Km of COMBAT RADIUS which is roughly 1/3 of Range. So the Range of Tejas MK-I is roughly 1500 Kms.For verification read the spacs in the picture below:
View attachment 139051

Why the Imported Air Force is going GAGA for Rafel should be investigated by CBI, CAG. The real delay and careless attitude of IAF has been very specifically made evident by OP.

You may decry the imported bit but your attempt at compared the Tejas and Rafale is rather flawed. The two aircraft are very different in capability. The Rafale is three times the aircraft the Tejas will ever be in air to ground capability and in sheer power of electronics and weapons. The only place where the Tejas might hope to match it will be air to air but even then it will be hard pressed to keep up.

Yes, it is possible to justify that purchasing more Tejas could offset buying the Rafale but that also means that the IAF will have to wait till 2030 for any meaningful Tejas production to keep up and replace the already ageing migs which by that time will be falling out of the skies and taking valuable IAF pilots with them.

 

[Raul_AD]

You may decry the imported bit but your attempt at compared the Tejas and Rafale is rather flawed. The two aircraft are very different in capability. The Rafale is three times the aircraft the Tejas will ever be in air to ground capability and in sheer power of electronics and weapons. The only place where the Tejas might hope to match it will be air to air but even then it will be hard pressed to keep up.

Yes, it is possible to justify that purchasing more Tejas could offset buying the Rafale but that also means that the IAF will have to wait till 2030 for any meaningful Tejas production to keep up and replace the already ageing migs which by that time will be falling out of the skies and taking valuable IAF pilots with them.

Sirji, The Tejas will have AESA radar in MK-II version. There is news about Indian AESA based on Israeli Elta EL/M-2052 already ready, apart from India's own developed UTTAM AESA. Now comparing Ra-dia of Tejas with Rafel's, which is way bigger then the latter, hence we can say Tejas can have More TR Modules then Rafale due the design factor of RA-Dia.

All rafale wins is in SPECTRA and IIR seeker, which can be taken care off in future developments. And yes Rafale wins in weapon load, it carries more load then Tejas MK-II. Then Tejas Mk-II will be dirt cheap then Rafale, which any given day we can get 3 MK-II in price of 1 Rafale.

The range of Tejas MK-II will be within close range of Rafale thanks to increased fuel capacity and reduced weight due to more use of composites then MK-I and the reduction of dead weight of lead counter weights which MK-I carries.

I will not comment on the date of development date of MK-II, hope with new Govt. in office we can see some surprises on this front also. Fingers Crossed.

 

[SQ8]

Sirji, The Tejas will have AESA radar in MK-II version. There is news about Indian AESA based on Israeli Elta EL/M-2052 already ready, apart from India's own developed UTTAM AESA. Now comparing Ra-dia of Tejas with Rafel's, which is way bigger then the latter, hence we can say Tejas can have More TR Modules then Rafale due the design factor of RA-Dia.

All rafale wins is in SPECTRA and IIR seeker, which can be taken care off in future developments. And yes Rafale wins in weapon load, it carries more load then Tejas MK-II.

The range of Tejas MK-II will be within close range of Rafale thanks to increased fuel capacity and reduced weight due to more use of composites then MK-I and the reduction of dead weight of lead counter weights which MK-I carries.

I will not comment on the date of development date of MK-II, hope with new Govt. in office we can see some surprises on this front also. Fingers Crossed.

The Tejas will have , could have. Currently the aircraft had to have its radome replaced and awaits refuelling kits. It will take time to mature. Meanwhile the Rafale is a mature platform carrying out combat operations as we speak. Again, this is fallacy trying to base radar coverage and power on Radome size..What matters more is the sophisitcation of the signal processors behind it and the underlying software.. and the Rafale has a fairly mature AESA on hand for this while this speculative large AESA you talk of does not exist at all...even on paper.

All the bottom arguments are essentially speculations on an aircraft that has not flown and is not tested. Essentially you are handing over the lives of IAF pilots on the hope that the aircraft will meet development milestones(which it has only recently begun to somewhat meet). That is a risk I do not think the IAF wants to take with its pilots and their willingness on the program regardless of what happens is clear enough.

 

[NKVD]

There is news about Indian AESA based on Israeli Elta EL/M-2052 already ready, apart from India's own developed UTTAM AESA.

Best range of Uttam AESA is 100km.And as for Elta EL/M 2052 it is denied by US to india best we can go Is Hybrid version that too will take 5-6 years best by LRDE To Develop Radar that can compare with it counter parts.And Boy Indian PSU's have a reputation in overlapping Time-frames

 

[Cat Shannon]

Considering the BJP is funded by MNPs.. Shree Modi's own record as CM very capitalistic... I dont see the proof in your rather spirited defence.

if your intention is to link capitalism with corruption or incompetence, just look west !

i don't want a communist india. socialist ? yes. Shree modi is a pro, as pointed out. Rest assured, he leads us..our aspirations !!

On topic, every point is valid.

in IAF's defennce. It was on Anthony's insistence that MMRCA was conducted. so that he can hide his stinky old arse behind MMRCA later.

so there...IAF is not without fault. plus i hate that elite culture they have among themselves. honestly saying. half the time they are in trouble because they quite simply don't plan ahead.

there is a bigger fiasco coming with ukraine. wait and see.

 

[Sugarcane]

IAF is transforming into Top Heavy Air force, with large
induction of Twin engine Heavy class aircrafts, IAF is seriously lacking
perfect combination of Low-Medium-Heavy class of fighters in its fleet,
Legacy Light fighter aircrafts which are been retired are getting
replaced by Heavy class of aircrafts and only Light class aircraft
planned for Induction are Home Grown LCA Tejas Variants.

Kuch ziada heavy nahi ho gaya?

 

[Abingdonboy]

but when we talk of functions to be done and roles to be carried out
we simply dont need rafale any more

So the Rafale brings absolutely zero performance to the table over the LCA?

we can simply order up more Su30MKI and Tejas Mk1 & Mk2 combo
which will keep our budgets under control, rapidly increase nos of fighters and sqads and MOST IMPORTANT perform all roles, and missions and give us all capabilities

It's laughable that you talk about keeping budgets under control and then prescribe getting more MKIs to the IAF. The MKI, let's not forget, is not actually that much cheaper than the Rafale anymore (they will be upwards of $90MN a unit each now) but their life cycle costs are DRAMATICALLY more than the Rafale and the Su-30 is far less serviceable than the Rafale. If you're talking about bang for your buck and keeping high availability rates for the IAF then look no further than the Rafale, the MKI is a very capable machine but you can't have such a top-heavy airforce, it would bleed the IAF dry.

Not to mention that HAL is set to close their MKI production line in 2019 in order to re-tool for the FGFA's production, where are these extra MKIs going to come from?


As for the LCA, of course it will be ordered in large numbers (220+) BUT it will take until 2030 to reach this target whilst all 126 Rafales will be in service by 2025. As @Oscar pointed out, the IAF cannot wait that long- the MiG-21s should have been out of service a decade ago, you can't ask them to fly for another 15 years, this WILL kill more pilots and will cripple the IAF at a time when the PLAAF is modernising at a great pace.


As the IAF have said time and time again- the Rafale is the only option left on the table and it is vital, any of these other measures "experts" are suggesting would be simply disastrous.

so there...IAF is not without fault. plus i hate that elite culture they have among themselves. honestly saying. half the time they are in trouble because they quite simply plan ahead.

Please explain how the IAF's plans or lack thereof have contributed to the delays in the LCA or the slow pace of Goi-Dassault talks?

They wanted the MiG-21s/27s gone in the 90s but there was no money (see the lost decade), then in the early 2000s they were looking to acquire 126 Mirage 2000-5s in a government to government deal to replace the MiGs but the GoI stalled this deal so the Mirage production line closed and the GoI instead on opening up the deal to allow multiple venders to take part- again, NOT the IAF's fault.



What is being exhibited here by a few members is sheer ignorance and misdirected anger/frustration.

there is a bigger fiasco coming with ukraine. wait and see.

What's that got to do with India?

All the bottom arguments are essentially speculations on an aircraft that has not flown and is not tested. Essentially you are handing over the lives of IAF pilots on the hope that the aircraft will meet development milestones(which it has only recently begun to somewhat meet). That is a risk I do not think the IAF wants to take with its pilots and their willingness on the program regardless of what happens is clear enough.

Aside from the significant risk to the lives of the pilots (clearly one of the biggest concerns) if the Rafale deal is scrapped in favour of the LCA, but it will also leave a huge hole in the IAF's capabilities for a long time (a decade or so) and in this neighbourhood the IAF (a military force, tasked with defending their nation) cannot allow this situation to arise, they simply cannot.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Sirji, The Tejas will have AESA radar in MK-II version. There is news about Indian AESA based on Israeli Elta EL/M-2052 already ready, apart from India's own developed UTTAM AESA. Now comparing Ra-dia of Tejas with Rafel's, which is way bigger then the latter, hence we can say Tejas can have More TR Modules then Rafale due the design factor of RA-Dia.

Irrelevant, utterly irrelevant because the Mk.2 with its AESA radar will only be ready, at the earliest, in 2020 and it will take a good 2-3 years to see 1-2 SQDs of it in service so whilst you could see all 126 Rafales with AESA ,and all other advanced systems, in service it would take until 2030 to see a similar number of LCAs in service (and possibly even more Rafales as the 63 follow on clause will likely be exercised).

All rafale wins is in SPECTRA and IIR seeker, which can be taken care off in future developments. And yes Rafale wins in weapon load, it carries more load then Tejas MK-II. Then Tejas Mk-II will be dirt cheap then Rafale, which any given day we can get 3 MK-II in price of 1 Rafale.

You can't just brush off SPECTRA like that as if it is but a trivial detail, it is a game changer in the region and for the IAF. And you have admitted yourself the combat load of the Rafale will be superior so how is the cost of the Rafale not justified? You get what you pay for.

And you really think the LCA Mk.2 is going to cost under $45-50MN a unit? So at most 1.5-2 Mk.2 for 1 Rafale but then the Rafale has better performance in certain criteria so that is pretty much negated.

I will not comment on the date of development date of MK-II, hope with new Govt. in office we can see some surprises on this front also. Fingers Crossed.

What do you think the new GoI can do? I too hope they will go for a more aggressive policy on indigenous systems but it's not as if ADA/HAL aren't working flat out on the LCA right now, there is such a thing as R&D cycles and rate of development that can't be changed overnight. There is little the current GoI can do to improve the situation- it is already on the right track.

 

[axisofevil]

We neeed to overhaul the fighting doctrine. Too much fat needs to be trimed on the officer level.

 

[Abingdonboy]

We neeed to overhaul the fighting doctrine. Too much fat needs to be trimed on the officer level.

What exactly has the IAF done wrong on the MMRCA front?

Understand this-

-THE IAF WANTED THE MIRAGE 2000-5 IN THE EARLY 2000s
-The GoI were the ones who opened the door to multiple venders and created the MMRCA procurment
-The IAF conducted the evaluations of the 6 fighters and then presented their findings to the GoI*
- The GoI* made their decision to down select the Rafale and EFT based on the IAF's findings
- The GoI* opened the sealed bids and found the Rafale to the ht cheaper bid and thus L1
- The GoI* entered into exclusive talks with Dassualt and are still going at them to this day for one reason or another

*GoI in this context indicates one specific ministry- the MoD.

Now tell me where the IAF's integrity or judgment can be called into question? They did their part incredibly well and throughly (receiving unanimous praise for their professional analysis and evaluations), what more do you want from them?