MMRCA: Self Goal by IAF?

[SpArK]

As the popular perception, the weight, the engines, the roles were not the criteria for India to choose a fighter which is not Russian.

The tender started aiming to get Mirage 2000 latest version, jumped into acquiring the best possible jet that can bring the best technologies towards our industry. They tested , evaluated, compared, weighed vendors and future issues, made documentations after documentations and finally went with the best.

If they had simply decided to buy M2K then we would have been operating a good number of them right now.

 

[NKVD]

If you pour 9 Billion $, at last 500 private companies will be FIGHTING to get into the LCA project you idiot.

LCA A.K.A Light combat aircraft is light weight fighter with limited Aerial Role in Comparison of Rafale which is omni-Role fighter and is in Different weight Class WE all Know who Is Amateur and Idiot here IS next you will say Iaf should go for LCA mk3 rather than FGFA

 

[Sahasranama]

LCA A.K.A Light combat aircraft is light weight fighter with limited Aerial Role in Comparison of Rafale which is omni-Role fighter and is in Different weight Class WE all Know who Is Amateur and Idiot here IS

Ya, the person eager to gifting France 9 Billion $ for 50% "ToT" is the genius .............I think that is pretty obvious.

Can you cite a SINGLE paper where the IAF has listed down its operational requirements based on enemy threat perceptions and cost advantage ?

 

[NKVD]

Ya, the person eager to gifting France 9 Billion $ for 50% "ToT" is the genius .............I think that is pretty obvious.

Can you cite a SINGLE paper where the IAF has listed down its operational requirements based on enemy threat perceptions and cost advantage ?

Bot first you just explain US what TOT Really means

 

[Sahasranama]

Bot first you just explain US what TOT Really means

LOL. You got that backward. Since you are the one promoting 9 billion $ worth of "ToT", its for you to explain what it means.

I am against such nonsense.

 

[SrNair]

Ever wonder why Indian Navy has an ship building Industry and IAF does not have an aerospace Industry ?

Ever wonder what would have happened to LCA if 9 Billion $ was poured into its development ? ........ instead of 1 billion $ spread over 15 years. ?

Then you should blame who blocked the successive version of HF Marut .Not IAF but MoD did that.
Like IN ,IAF also prefer their own systems .But if that systems is fatal to their own pilots that made up by IAF after
years of training and crores of expense,they will ignore it.
Aerospace industry is a complex industry.USSR and US made up such an industry at the expense trillions of dollars
and lives of dozens of pilots life .Same in the case of EU nations.
India dont have that much money or resources.

Really?If pumping of 9 billions of $ is enough for LCA then Chinese would have been already a fighter on par with F 22 Raptor since they have opaque huge miltary R&D and a back up of 10 trillion $economy.
But fact is they can induct their J 20 only around 2020.Now I am talking about a chinese projects with maximum spied technical infos.
So even if we spend 20 billions $ dollars for LCA it will take time and experience to become a matured aircraft or you cant replace time with hard cash.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Based on the reports of 9 Billion $ being gifted to France for 50% "ToT" and comparing that to 1 billion as the total cost for LCA development.

The ToT was supposed to be FREE as an incentive for buying the Rafale.

Not to mention the additional cost HAL will bear for modernising its production capabilities all paid for in full by the people of India.



IAF does Nothing. That is the beauty. They just sit on judgement and blame others.

Why did the IAF not object when GoI expanded the scope ? Is the objection recorded in writing somewhere ?

You don't seem to understand the MMRCA deal one bit. What are you talking about $9 BN being "gifted" to the French?? The Rafale deal is now worth around $16BN which will cover the planes, ToT, warrantees, setting up of relevant MRO facilities in India, training, spares etc etc and 50% of this $16BN will be invested back into India by Dassualt as part of the offset requirements. These offsets will inherently help the Indian aviation/defence industry not to mention the LCA program in some ways.

India isn't just "gifting" the French billions of dollars, they are getting something back for it.

Not to mention the additional cost HAL will bear for modernising its production capabilities all paid for in full by the people of India.

Well the offsets will cover most of this and is there anything wrong in HAL upgrading their production capabilities? This has been a major issue of theirs.

Can you cite a SINGLE paper where the IAF has listed down its operational requirements based on enemy threat perceptions and cost advantage ?

Do you work for the IAF's strategy group? Because I know no one else here does so it unreasonable based on absolutely zero information to make such definitive statements.

 

[Sahasranama]

Then you should blame who blocked the successive version of HF Marut .Not IAF but MoD did that.
Like IN ,IAF also prefer their own systems .But if that systems is fatal to their own pilots that made up by IAF after
years of training and crores of expense,they will ignore it.
Aerospace industry is a complex industry.USSR and US made up such an industry at the expense trillions of dollars
and lives of dozens of pilots life .Same in the case of EU nations.
India dont have that much money or resources.

Really?If pumping of 9 billions of $ is enough for LCA then Chinese would have been already a fighter on par with F 22 Raptor since they have opaque huge miltary R&D and a back up of 10 trillion $economy.
But fact is they can induct their J 20 only around 2020.Now I am talking about a chinese projects with maximum spied technical infos.
So even if we spend 20 billions $ dollars for LCA it will take time and experience to become a matured aircraft or you cant replace time with hard cash.

You are wrong on multiple counts.

1. I have never claimed MoD are saints or politicians are saints. I have said IAF is no saint.

2. Naval systems are quite complex too. But we have managed to me a VERY complex Nuclear submarine. While we still falter when it comes to aircrafts. Why ?

3. If the system is fatal, the choice is not to ignore it, but to improve it. That is how it works in the real world. Maybe IAF needs to live in that world.

4. China is under technology sanction from the US and Europe, that is why they are unable to make something like the F-22. US OTOH gets to borrow or partner technologies from all over the world. There is no comparing the two.

5. India is not currently under sanction, so now is the time to spend money on R&D.

6. Everything takes time and money which is why we have to start NOW. Not tomorrow.

 

[SrNair]

If the IAF is left with NO option then its must be a VERY incompetent body.

In my job if I make my company so vulnerable with No option and no plan B, I will get fired from my job. Who is held accountable for this mess in IAF ?



If you pour 9 Billion $, at least 500 private companies will be FIGHTING to get into the LCA project you idiot. But NO, you would rather give that Money to France.

And which company in India have that much capability to produce a fighter that can compete with the capability of the Dassault ?
Only company that can develop a fighter in India is HAL.And they are reputed for assembling except LCA.

 

[Sahasranama]

You don't seem to understand the MMRCA deal one bit. What are you talking about $9 BN being "gifted" to the French?? The Rafale deal is now worth around $16BN which will cover the planes, ToT, warrantees, setting up of relevant MRO facilities in India, training, spares etc etc and 50% of this $16BN will be invested back into India by Dassualt as part of the offset requirements. These offsets will inherently help the Indian aviation/defence industry not to mention the LCA program in some ways.

India isn't just "gifting" the French billions of dollars, they are getting something back for it.

Latest reading indicated the following, 13 Billion $ for outright purchase, 22 billion $ for 50% "ToT" and support. Cost of modernising HAL is separate. 22-13 = 9 Billion $.

MRO is part of life cycle cost.

Well the offsets will cover most of this and is there anything wrong in HAL upgrading their production capabilities? This has been a major issue of theirs.

Off set policy accepts ToT as offset. So the "value" of "technology" goes into the offset. Which is to say, Barely anything will be invested back. Even if it is, its cheaper to give that much money to Indian industry to kick start it from ground up, and for 9 Billion $, it will.

Do you work for the IAF's strategy group? Because I know no one else here does so it unreasonable based on absolutely zero information to make such definitive statements.

Not even a white paper ? No explanation why MMRCA is required ? We are supposed to blindly accept it ? No review ?? Amazing.

In GOD we trust .............. turns out its GOD and IAF we trust.

 

[sancho]

The tender started aiming to get Mirage 2000 latest version, jumped into acquiring the best possible jet that can bring the best technologies towards our industry

The basic requirements of IAF didn't changed between the tenders, only the technical capability were modified to the possible contenders (AESA rather than current gen puls doppler radar), that however doesn't mean that the best possible jet was the aim, but those that would comply to most of the requirements.

If they had simply decided to buy M2K then we would have been operating a good number of them right now.

And IAF would had been happy about that, but on the other side the industrial and technical advantages would had been limited, basically to current gen techs that LCA MK1 has. The operational capability for the nex 3 decades would be limited too, since the M2K is not in production anymore and on the verge of being faced out of most of it's operators.
What also must be considered is, IF we had gone for M2Ks back in 2006/07, would we had supported LCA for another 7 years to pass IOC? Isn't it even likely that we had increased the numbers of M2Ks rather than ordering LCA MK1 and replaced the whole Mig 21 lot with them, rather than keep developing LCA?

 

[Sahasranama]

And which company in India have that much capability to produce a fighter that can compete with the capability of the Dassault ?
Only company that can develop a fighter in India is HAL.And they are reputed for assembling except LCA.

Which company has been provided the opportunity to develop capability to produce a fighter ?

Name one other than HAL.

 

[SrNair]

You are wrong on multiple counts.

1. I have never claimed MoD are saints or politicians are saints. I have said IAF is no saint.

2. Naval systems are quite complex too. But we have managed to me a VERY complex Nuclear submarine. While we still falter when it comes to aircrafts. Why ?

3. If the system is fatal, the choice is not to ignore it, but to improve it. That is how it works in the real world. Maybe IAF needs to live in that world.

4. China is under technology sanction from the US and Europe, that is why they are unable to make something like the F-22. US OTOH gets to borrow or partner technologies from all over the world. There is no comparing the two.

5. India is not currently under sanction, so now is the time to spend money on R&D.

6. Everything takes time and money which is why we have to start NOW. Not tomorrow.

Wrong.
ATV project was initiated during Indiras time and it took around 30 years and still it is a TD.
Developing 4 nuke subs and raising squadrons of 126 indigenous fighters on par with Rafale have much difference.
Sanctions or no Sanctions developed countries having advanced fighter tech not gonna sell their tech to us even if we offer billions of dollars.
You are right.We need to fund it but if we wait for maturing of platforms squadrons of IAF will go down further and that is unacceptable

 

[Skull and Bones]

First of all, it's complete idiotic to compare the acquisition policies of IAF and IN. IN had its fair chance on absorbing technology from foreign platforms via ToT, and they get to study the Charlie class extensively to build INS Arihant. While, DRDO was only limited to assemble and build selected part for their aircraft. Does Navy has any indigenous propulsion engine? Does our carriers have indigenous launcher and landing arresting gears? Does we even have our own CIWS? Without developing these critical components, even the indigenous remark on Navy has a blot on it.

Had RnD is as easy as pouring money, then I have all the reason to believe Qatar would have been the knowledge capital of the world, which it isn't, that should tell you something. Developing critical technology takes years, if not decades, MMRCA just provides another avenue to absorb the technology, without starting from scratch.

 

[SrNair]

Which company has been provided the opportunity to develop capability to produce a fighter ?

Name one other than HAL.

Past is past we need to think about future.Even if we give enormous subsidies and funding creating a private firm on par with Lockheed or Dassault would take decades